Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[JT2002TJ]

Yup, the newer 3 is supposed to be. And the upcoming (at some point) Y (Juniper) as well. I'm familiar with quiet engined cars be it ice or bev, so they do tend to exurbate road noise a little more than a 'noise' ice in my experience and I consider that normal. In a perveted way they are more noisy because they are quieter if you know what I mean.

But with the X it is something different, it is the kind of noise like seals aren't fitted properly or have a gap in them. My main interest is that it is large, and I'm going between the UK and Netherlands (through France/Belgium) at least twice a month whilst we are renovating a house. And for such a large vehicle it is one of the few that could make the journey without charging en-route.

Its back to the drawing board, but may go for a Kia EV9 instead. It has got a lot going for it, I just so dislike the grey shiny plastic hehehe

The S/X is not Tesla's bread and butter. The S is their foundation (after the first roadster), but they clearly have focused more on the 3/Y as I assume it is more cost effective, which allowed the company to grow and expand worldwide including their supercharging network.

I would not buy an S/X except for the Plaid, just to be able to say I have the fastest production vehicle. They also dropped the price here in the us from almost $200k to $90k (for Plaid, even less for non-Plaid).

 

[quagmire]

The 3/Y aren't even 10 years old; how often do you want a manufacture to redesign their vehicles? Most go through 10-year cycles and tend not to make any major chances mid generation.

Since the release of the 3/Y they have added to the 3/Y:
heated steering wheels
Heat Pump (all Y's had these)
Powered Trunk (all Y's had these)
CCS Language
Heated Wiper areas
Revised console
Switch from USB A to USB C
Dual Pane front side windows
Higher Resolution Computer Screens
Higher Resolution Cameras
Pedestrian Warning Systems
New Headlights (Matrix)
Switch from Chrome Trim to Black Trim
Addition of LFP Batteries
Comfort suspension

Then Highland...

All incremental updates.

Highland is a refresh. Jupiter is a refresh. I am curious to see Munro tear down the highland to see if any architecture changes they have made. Remember the 2017 Model 3 was just a mess of welds, etc in its architecture. They tore down a 2021 3 and there were some improvements, but still a complete mess vs the new Y. I will give credit with the Y that they have done architecture design changes during the Y's lifetime with the front mega casting and the structural battery pack with the 4680 equipped Y's.

Y/3 are not in need of redesigns though. The S/X are though. They need ground up redesigns from an entirely new platform from their lessons learned with the 3/Y. As you said in another reply, they are foundational vehicles. But if they want to continue to have high margin vehicle sales and compete with actual luxury vehicles( see how much the Plaid has come down in price and I doubt Tesla is losing money at current prices for how much margins these vehicles have).

They are the ancient ones. In 5 years, 3 will join them in needing a redesign from the ground up. Tesla has proved they are not capable of that kind of work. Hence my fear of them becoming like Ford and with the Model T.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

The S/X is not Tesla's bread and butter. The S is their foundation (after the first roadster), but they clearly have focused more on the 3/Y as I assume it is more cost effective, which allowed the company to grow and expand worldwide including their supercharging network.

I would not buy an S/X except for the Plaid, just to be able to say I have the fastest production vehicle. They also dropped the price here in the us from almost $200k to $90k (for Plaid, even less for non-Plaid).

Funny thing is that I have no interest in the plaid. 🤷‍♂️🤣 It’s a finicky system with Tesla to get that level of power by which time the competition is already gone. And it’s just a straight line party trick with some patience. I guess it’s another difference in the European attitudes towards cars, we prefer just good handling cars. Fifth gear done a nice test that showed the difference a chassis makes opposed to just adding power and forgetting the basics.

To me I find the long range interesting as it’s the same in everyday driving without the sprint party trick, and for the size it has one of the best useable range. Here in Europe the charging network is not a differentiator either.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

All incremental updates.

Highland is a refresh. Jupiter is a refresh. I am curious to see Munro tear down the highland to see if any architecture changes they have made. Remember the 2017 Model 3 was just a mess of welds, etc in its architecture. They tore down a 2021 3 and there were some improvements, but still a complete mess vs the new Y. I will give credit with the Y that they have done architecture design changes during the Y's lifetime with the front mega casting and the structural battery pack with the 4680 equipped Y's.

Y/3 are not in need of redesigns though. The S/X are though. They need ground up redesigns from an entirely new platform from their lessons learned with the 3/Y. As you said in another reply, they are foundational vehicles. But if they want to continue to have high margin vehicle sales and compete with actual luxury vehicles( see how much the Plaid has come down in price and I doubt Tesla is losing money at current prices for how much margins these vehicles have).

They are the ancient ones. In 5 years, 3 will join them in needing a redesign from the ground up. Tesla has proved they are not capable of that kind of work. Hence my fear of them becoming like Ford and with the Model T.

I agree. In the USA I think they have a few more tricks up their sleeve being their network superiority, and build in the USA. It’s an irrelevance elsewhere.

What you also highlight is their price. They are priced very competitively. Whilst that may seem nice for consumers, I do think it give the wrong signals for the brand. And they are losing if not already lost, what they build up with early to market advantage. And outside the USA the main differentiator will become price.

However, fair is fair. The highland refresh is very well received. Shame the juniper one doesn’t seem to be coming until next year which I think is a big miss.

 

[JT2002TJ]

All incremental updates.

Highland is a refresh. Jupiter is a refresh. I am curious to see Munro tear down the highland to see if any architecture changes they have made. Remember the 2017 Model 3 was just a mess of welds, etc in its architecture. They tore down a 2021 3 and there were some improvements, but still a complete mess vs the new Y. I will give credit with the Y that they have done architecture design changes during the Y's lifetime with the front mega casting and the structural battery pack with the 4680 equipped Y's.

Y/3 are not in need of redesigns though. The S/X are though. They need ground up redesigns from an entirely new platform from their lessons learned with the 3/Y. As you said in another reply, they are foundational vehicles. But if they want to continue to have high margin vehicle sales and compete with actual luxury vehicles( see how much the Plaid has come down in price and I doubt Tesla is losing money at current prices for how much margins these vehicles have).

They are the ancient ones. In 5 years, 3 will join them in needing a redesign from the ground up. Tesla has proved they are not capable of that kind of work. Hence my fear of them becoming like Ford and with the Model T.

I wouldn't call the list of changes an incremental change, those are some major changes, there are different wiring harnesses. I have yet to see that many changes within any OG manufacture within 1 body style.

I also didn't mention the changes to handle the 7-seater (I have a 7-seater) model Y.

The 3 has already been redesigned via the Highland. They did this within a 4-5 year period, so they have proven they can shift. The delay for the 3 was to do with US, not Telsa not being able to handle it. There was a $7,500 Tax credit that was going to be lost, they held off until it was lost, then made an almost immediate switch in the US.

The S/X have and a refresh already once in just over 10 years. They clearly make more money/sales off of the 3/Y. I personally think they keep the S/X around, just because they can, but I think they have no real interest in them.

 

[quagmire]

I wouldn't call the list of changes an incremental change, those are some major changes, there are different wiring harnesses. I have yet to see that many changes within any OG manufacture within 1 body style.

I also didn't mention the changes to handle the 7-seater (I have a 7-seater) model Y.

The 3 has already been redesigned via the Highland. They did this within a 4-5 year period, so they have proven they can shift. The delay for the 3 was to do with US, not Telsa not being able to handle it. There was a $7,500 Tax credit that was going to be lost, they held off until it was lost, then made an almost immediate switch in the US.

The S/X have and a refresh already once in just over 10 years. They clearly make more money/sales off of the 3/Y. I personally think they keep the S/X around, just because they can, but I think they have no real interest in them.

Highland is a refresh, it's not a redesign.

Architecturally, it's still on the same platform as the 2018 Model 3. It's got updated bits and pieces, but it is still largely the same car as the previous version.

Look I am not trashing Tesla. You're right in that not many if any of the legacy OEM's make the changes Tesla does without doing them in a refresh or redesign cycle. And it's great that Tesla does that.

But S/X need a ground up redesign. Not just refreshes. Current sales reflect that.

To make it related to computers..... The S/X are to Tesla as 14 nm was to Intel.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Highland is a refresh, it's not a redesign.

Architecturally, it's still on the same platform as the 2018 Model 3. It's got updated bits and pieces, but it is still largely the same car as the previous version.

Look I am not trashing Tesla. You're right in that not many if any of the legacy OEM's make the changes Tesla does without doing them in a refresh or redesign cycle. And it's great that Tesla does that.

But S/X need a ground up redesign. Not just refreshes. Current sales reflect that.

To make it related to computers..... The S/X are to Tesla as 14 nm was to Intel.

I might be making up numbers here, but I thought the new "refresh" or "redesign" uses 80% parts different than the previous gen 3. So, for me, it is a redesign or a cut in body as a traditional manufacturer would have.

The S/X can use a refresh/redesign. But I have a feeling Tesla is playing it smart. The number of buyers lining up to buy an S/X are a LOT smaller than the 3/Y. There is no way they make the same per unit with the S/X as they do with the 3/Y. I mean wasn't the Model Y in the top 10 selling vehicle in the world in Q1 2024, and the top seller in 2023.

If they decide to keep selling the S/X, I can see them making a change, but I also don't see them doing anything major until after the Y is refreshed/redesigned. And I don't see the Y changing in the US in 2024, because it is still eligible for the $7,500 tax credit (and is at point of sale this year). Once that credit disappears, I think it will be like the 3, it will be an immediate flip, after being made initially in China.

Why lose sales in the US because of a factory retooling during a major Tax Credit? A Model Y Performance is the same price as the Dual Motor 3 now, because the 3 is not eligible for the credit.

 

[hobowankenobi]

One of the weird things about Tesla is that they make changes (usually small) all the time...so, very different from the entire industry where one can typically know what changes/improvements come on each model year.

On one hand, it is great that they are constantly improving...but on the other hand, to casual observers, they never really change. From a marketing point of view, they are shooting themselves in the foot. Only nerdy hobbyists have any idea about all the little changes that continuously happen.

My 2018 M3 feels nothing like any newish (2022 or later) 3s or Ys I have been in. Even sitting in car making a list, I don't know that I could fully list everything that one can see and feel, to say nothing of mechanical or technical changes.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Yes very true, and unlike the software enhancements it isn't even always announced that a new/revised version has been brought. And you are right this is even inbetween milestones like for the X there was the original, then raven, all now grouped as legacy, and then the current X. But it isn't just model year changes, there are real changes throughout the year.

Whilst Polestar follows a very clear and long established Volvo model year model where (in my opinion stupidly) in May the next year model year is launched, and typically in September onward of this year next years model is being delivered.

Even though it is hard to differentiate I prefer Tesla's approach...

 

[avro707]

That water cooler 911 is awesome, and if you don’t sit and wait to die it will kill you in turbo form 🤣

It’s the first allrad Turbo as they called it, so better behaved than the oldies.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I agree. In the USA I think they have a few more tricks up their sleeve being their network superiority, and build in the USA. It’s an irrelevance elsewhere.

What you also highlight is their price. They are priced very competitively. Whilst that may seem nice for consumers, I do think it give the wrong signals for the brand. And they are losing if not already lost, what they build up with early to market advantage. And outside the USA the main differentiator will become price.

However, fair is fair. The highland refresh is very well received. Shame the juniper one doesn’t seem to be coming until next year which I think is a big miss.

Remember the Y is younger than the 3. The 3 came out in what 2017, the Y came out in 2020.

I think we have set expectations way too high. Why should it be considered a miss if a 4 year old design isn’t changed until the 5th year?

As much as I also would like a redesign of the Y, it would crazy for a manufacturer to be expected to make major changes (like highland) every 4 years…

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I think the unfortunate perception now is the Y has been outdated by the new Model 3. The Y looks like a stretched version of the old Model 3 and naturally consumers expect a facelift to follow close behind, even if the Y is just 4 years old. The reviews of the Highland have focused on so many improvements to quality, handling and refinement, this is now an expectation of Tesla across the budget end of their brand now.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Remember the Y is younger than the 3. The 3 came out in what 2017, the Y came out in 2020.

I think we have set expectations way too high. Why should it be considered a miss if a 4 year old design isn’t changed until the 5th year?

As much as I also would like a redesign of the Y, it would crazy for a manufacturer to be expected to make major changes (like highland) every 4 years…

The miss is decoupled from the age, the miss is about expectations management. And to be fair, it needs it, as they are only competing on price at the moment, what the highland refresh has shown is that they can compete on quality and capability as well. So last year it was the global bestseller, this year, with more competition, it will be tougher. You get the company car lease crowd that doesn't mind about that, but those with their own money should not buy one with major improvements pending. Tesla got away with not announcing and just changing for a long time, in my opinion, those early adopter days and first to market days are gone…

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I think the unfortunate perception now is the Y has been outdated by the new Model 3. The Y looks like a stretched version of the old Model 3 and naturally consumers expect a facelift to follow close behind, even if the Y is just 4 years old. The reviews of the Highland have focused on so many improvements to quality, handling and refinement, this is now an expectation of Tesla across the budget end of their brand now.

Exactly, with the the new 3 looking sharp and nice it really makes the Y look very dated.

 

[diamond.g]

I saw a government plated refresh model 3 (IIRC federal) yesterday.

 

[JT2002TJ]

The miss is decoupled from the age, the miss is about expectations management. And to be fair, it needs it, as they are only competing on price at the moment, what the highland refresh has shown is that they can compete on quality and capability as well. So last year it was the global bestseller, this year, with more competition, it will be tougher. You get the company car lease crowd that doesn't mind about that, but those with their own money should not buy one with major improvements pending. Tesla got away with not announcing and just changing for a long time, in my opinion, those early adopter days and first to market days are gone…

Just an FYI, from what I can see, in Q1 2024 the TMY was again the only EV in the top sellers. So, I still ask the same question, if it is still the top selling EV, is eligible for a US $7,500 at point-of-sale tax credit, why would Tesla stop production to retool their factory on a 4-year-old design? Every day that production line is down, is loss of revenue...

I'm willing to bet, just like I said about the Highland coming to the US in this thread, Tesla will not do it until there is a loss of the Tax credit. So, I would expect a new design (if it is called Jupiter) to hit the Chinese market Q3-Q4 2024, where they can work all the kinks out, then if the Tax credit is gone in the US in Q1 2025 an overnight switch in orders to the new design.

Car enthusiast perception of an aging design has nothing to do with actual sales. Majority of car buyers look at price point then what they get for their money. If not, the Honda CRV would not continue to be a top selling SUV... This was the only reason I switched to EV, Tesla's price point.

By the way, my new Tesla SC is PACKED every day. Packed with people test driving, and getting help putting in their orders.

My buddy, an executive at another car dealer laughed at me, saying Telsa's sales model would never hurt his business. He laughed at any Tesla talk. His last few vehicles were, Cherokee SRT, Audi Q8, AMG GLE 63 S. He picked up a TMY Performance 2 weeks ago, and loves it. Says it is the best car he has ever owned (he still has the AMG and it just sits in his driveway). He told me this weekend, he needed to use the AMG, he couldn't wait to get back into his TMYP... I remember when he said, "I'm a car guy who works in the industry, I would never buy a Tesla". He says he can't believe he got all this car for $45k ($700 per month to own), when his AMG is costing him $1,300+ per month (lease)

 

[cyb3rdud3]

The world is much larger than just the US market There is so much competition out there; Byd, Zeekr, Xpeng, Polestar, Volvo, Audi, VW, Renault is really going for it as well, and budget brands like Dacia as well. And you are confirming my point exactly, competing on money Tax Credits, and like how cheap that car is. That is not good for a brand, it will affect margins at some point if all they can compete on is money.

I'm sorry but I'm can't be as lyrical as you about Tesla. I wish I could, I tried. The original M3/Y remind me too much of a cheap Toyota. The new 3 is to me more like what Kia/Hyundai have managed to pull themselves out of the budget sector. But Y, S, X are still in it.

 

[JT2002TJ]

The world is much larger than just the US market There is so much competition out there; Byd, Zeekr, Xpeng, Polestar, Volvo, Audi, VW, Renault is really going for it as well, and budget brands like Dacia as well. And you are confirming my point exactly, competing on money Tax Credits, and like how cheap that car is. That is not good for a brand, it will affect margins at some point if all they can compete on is money.

I'm sorry but I'm can't be as lyrical as you about Tesla. I wish I could, I tried. The original M3/Y remind me too much of a cheap Toyota. The new 3 is to me more like what Kia/Hyundai have managed to pull themselves out of the budget sector. But Y, S, X are still in it.

You do realize I was saying that the Tesla MY was the bestselling EV in the WORLD Q1 2023 - Q1 2024, right? Not just the US. It was not only the #1 selling EV in 2023, but the #1 selling vehicle... So, even with this competition, they still hold the record.

Also, California alone buys more vehicles than most countries in the world. Now, add the rest of the US. The US is only second to China in vehicle sales. If Tesla was to exclusively sell their vehicles in China and the US, they still could continue to hold the record...

I am not sure of this source; it was the first one that came up in my Google search.

Car Sales by Country | Global Car Sales Data | 1. China 2. US

Top 25 countries for car sales per year. This list of car sales by country includes global rank, number of units sold, and top car brands within each country listed.

www.factorywarrantylist.com

I'm not sure saying a M3/Y reminds you of a cheap Toyota is as much of an insult as you think it is... The most reliable brand with the number 1 selling car of all time and they also hold the title of the longest-lasting vehicles... I think Tesla would probably be honored by that comment...

Tesla has never said they were a luxury brand and has no goal to seek that market. Their goal was, and still is to make EVs affordable and available to the masses while being profitable to their shareholders. In order to be able to make the 3/Y they had to make the roadster, then S/X so they could fund their true goal. If anything, I see them focusing in on the rumored 2 (or whatever they call it) to make a more affordable compact car and suv.

 

[4sallypat]

Just joined the Tesla Supercharger membership!

Love Tesla's Superchargers that I am going to use them exclusively.

Saved $0.17/kWh by becoming a Tesla member - will breakeven after 2 charges within a month. Definitely a lot more savings by doing a road trip each weekend, now not afraid of travelling due to many SC locations.

Notice my EV takes up 2 spaces because it charges on the left tower.

 

[Moncler]

I have an Audi e-tron sportback 2020 , for traveling around my city and from work to home i am very happy with it.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

You do realize I was saying that the Tesla MY was the bestselling EV in the WORLD Q1 2023 - Q1 2024, right? Not just the US. It was not only the #1 selling EV in 2023, but the #1 selling vehicle... So, even with this competition, they still hold the record.

You seem to forget the context, which was why the MY needs an update. I acknowledged many a time the MY is the bestseller, but they are competing on price. They have that segment cornered.

Also, California alone buys more vehicles than most countries in the world. Now, add the rest of the US. The US is only second to China in vehicle sales. If Tesla was to exclusively sell their vehicles in China and the US, they still could continue to hold the record...

I am not sure of this source; it was the first one that came up in my Google search.

Car Sales by Country | Global Car Sales Data | 1. China 2. US

Top 25 countries for car sales per year. This list of car sales by country includes global rank, number of units sold, and top car brands within each country listed.

www.factorywarrantylist.com

Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity…

I'm not sure saying a M3/Y reminds you of a cheap Toyota is as much of an insult as you think it is... The most reliable brand with the number 1 selling car of all time and they also hold the title of the longest-lasting vehicles... I think Tesla would probably be honored by that comment...

I'd never buy a Toyota, it's an a2b type vehicle for those who aren't concerned about cars. Nothing wrong with that if it works for you, and it's not intended as an insult. It is just an observation of what it is and where they are positioning themselves. I just don't find it enjoyable to drive or own, but yes for those qualities, I did try as I've got a use case for it. I just found it far too much of a compromise.

Tesla has never said they were a luxury brand and has no goal to seek that market. Their goal was, and still is to make EVs affordable and available to the masses while being profitable to their shareholders. In order to be able to make the 3/Y they had to make the roadster, then S/X so they could fund their true goal. If anything, I see them focusing in on the rumored 2 (or whatever they call it) to make a more affordable compact car and suv.

We agree on something, although their mission statement clearly includes sustainability as well. And yes, they are racing to the bottom. From their company mission it can be considered a mission soon to be accomplished, from a car brand value perspective, not so much in my opinion.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I have an Audi e-tron sportback 2020 , for traveling around my city and from work to home i am very happy with it.

I can imagine, incredible build quality, extremely quiet, excellent user interface, and an almost flat charging curve.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Declining deliveries for Tesla. https://ir.tesla.com/tesla-vehicle-...financial-results-webcast-first-quarter-2024?

 

[JT2002TJ]

You seem to forget the context, which was why the MY needs an update. I acknowledged many a time the MY is the bestseller, but they are competing on price. They have that segment cornered.

Tesla is not having a problem selling their 4-year-old TMY (rising interest rates have slowed down new car sales across the board). I have no doubt they are going to redesign the current model to match the highland, since they originally designed the 3 and Y to use common parts. Most parts are interchangeable between the old 3 and the current Y by design so that Tesla can afford to sell both models cheaper.

I do not think they need to do a redesign because of a lack of demand, but they need to in order to reduce the manufacturing costs of the combined 3/Y.

With the increase of interest rates and the finish line not far away for the $7,500 tax credit, it would be silly for Tesla to put out a new Y that would require shutting down the production line.

I'd never buy a Toyota, it's an a2b type vehicle for those who aren't concerned about cars. Nothing wrong with that if it works for you, and it's not intended as an insult. It is just an observation of what it is and where they are positioning themselves. I just don't find it enjoyable to drive or own, but yes for those qualities, I did try as I've got a use case for it. I just found it far too much of a compromise.

Then why are you cross shopping the Toyota of EV's then reporting back how Toyota it is? It is like being a regular Emirates Air 1st class passenger, who took a short flight in Spirit Air economy then reports back how crappy Spirit Air is. Spirit Air wasn't designed for you... But in the end, there are more Spirit Air passengers that fly in one day than Emirates Air 1st class passengers in a year.

Tesla clearly is not targeted towards you...

We agree on something, although their mission statement clearly includes sustainability as well. And yes, they are racing to the bottom. From their company mission it can be considered a mission soon to be accomplished, from a car brand value perspective, not so much in my opinion.

What you call bottom, is what we call working class. The working class needs cars too, at least here in the US. There is no shame in providing a vehicle that is affordable to the masses. There are a lot more in this market than the market for a Posche. Don't believe me? See how busy Honda, Toyota, VW, Tesla dealership are, vs Porsche/Ferrari/... My town has dealers of all of these, I drive by the Porsche dealership every day, you are lucky to see more than 2 customers in there, when I pass the VW/jeep/Toyota/Tesla dealership it is standing room only.

What is the point in creating EV's that no one can afford? Without the Toyota of EV's you would not have the charging network you have today. It takes an affordable EV to incentivize companies to invest in a charging network...

Tesla has made the 3/Y at the price of the average ICE. How can they do that? By not wasting money by putting things in the vehicle that their customers do not need... This is the way to make a vehicle that would be only for the elite, available to the masses. What you see as a miss, I see as a way for me to afford 2 Tesla's.

I'm not mad at you, if it seems like I am.

Because they aren't making a high-end vehicle doesn't mean it's a miss. There are other companies out there that can fill that void already. These companies can afford to lose money on their high-end lines by making their profits off of their bread and butter working class lines...

Tesla seems to be following a Lean Model in all aspects including their design. They weren't really an automotive competitor until they made their 3/Y and made it affordable to the average family.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Yup going really well.

Tesla slashes Model Y inventory prices by as much as $7,000 | TechCrunch

The cuts come as Tesla has accumulated a large backlog, at a time when EV sales growth has cooled from record highs.

techcrunch.com