Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[I7guy]

Yup going really well.

Tesla slashes Model Y inventory prices by as much as $7,000 | TechCrunch

The cuts come as Tesla has accumulated a large backlog, at a time when EV sales growth has cooled from record highs.

techcrunch.com

One of the things about Tesla is they don’t have a dealer network to kow-tow to. They can make on the fly adjustments to the vehicle price based on supply and demand. Of course that’s good and bad.

 

[HDFan]

Declining deliveries for Tesla.

Any relationship to the Nordic Unions' strikes against Tesla?

 

[cyb3rdud3]

One of the things about Tesla is they don’t have a dealer network to kow-tow to. They can make on the fly adjustments to the vehicle price based on supply and demand. Of course that’s good and bad.

Well, even with a dealer model you can also, whether the deal chooses to pass it on is another story but it helps the manufacturer regardless. Regardless, competing on price alone to shift your overproduction (that is the cause) is a really dangerous game as you effectively devalue your product. Lease companies and customers alike don't like that, and they seem to be doing that regularly now.

Any relationship to the Nordic Unions' strikes against Tesla?

I've not heard that mentioned in financial news updates. Tesla themselves mentioned the fire at the gigafactory Berlin which I found odd as wouldn't that impact production and the figures are clearly about deliveries aka sales.

The news also suggested they canned the project for the rumoured TM2 and focus on robotaxis instead. So there goes another point being made about their vision.

 

[JT2002TJ]

The news also suggested they canned the project for the rumoured TM2 and focus on robotaxis instead. So there goes another point being made about their vision.

This news story was said to be false by Elon Musk himself.

 

[diamond.g]

This news story was said to be false by Elon Musk himself.

Yeah it is hard to take him seriously.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Yeah it is hard to take him seriously.

True. But I need more than one news story to believe a fundamental change in a company’s mission/vision.

He did release a big statement about Tesla in the last 2 weeks that, as difficult as it was, came through. FSD to all capable vehicles. This was a major task since there are several different OS versions and FSD versions out in the field.

 

[hobowankenobi]

No need to debate it. Go to tesla.com and check stock. With a quick scan I see about $2-3000 discounts on MY stock, looking at standard and long range. Some discounts are more, but those models have miles on them, likely demo cars.

Unlike the dealer model, prices are right there. No haggle, no coupons, no special single model bait-and-switch. See the price, buy or don't buy.

We have all been conditioned to expect end-of-year sales, holiday sales, sales sales, and haggle room. Nobody blinks an eye at thousands off...at any dealer. When Tesla has incentives, the sky must be falling.

 

[hobowankenobi]

s a really dangerous game as you effectively devalue your product. Lease companies and customers alike don't like that,

Disagree. I have never seen a customer upset about lower prices for mainstream brands. Every dealer in America has seasonal sales, and they work. People buy. They wait for sales.

This makes some sense for premium over-priced brands (Maserati, Land Rover, Jaguar, etc). But they sell on cache, not value. Outside of collectible super-cars, premium brands already suffer the worst depreciation, and that does not seem to hurt their niche markets. More than their cost/value, it seems like exclusivitiy is what props them up. Tesla is actively moving away from any sort of niche, cache, or exclusiveness in the market. No secret, very public, planned and being executed, at least with 3 and Y.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Disagree. I have never seen a customer upset about lower prices for mainstream brands. Every dealer in America has seasonal sales, and they work. People buy. They wait for sales.

This makes some sense for premium over-priced brands (Maserati, Land Rover, Jaguar, etc). But they sell on cache, not value. Outside of collectible super-cars, premium brands already suffer the worst depreciation, and that does not seem to hurt their niche markets. More than their cost/value, it seems like exclusivitiy is what props them up. Tesla is actively moving away from any sort of niche, cache, or exclusiveness in the market. No secret, very public, planned and being executed, at least with 3 and Y.

A seasonal or dealer discount or finance incentive I agree.

But a structural lowering of prices is different than that. It really isn’t that different as to what they are doing. Perhaps it is for the USA but in Europe it really isn’t new and unique. The difference is that the listed price is nonnegotiable.

And it’s not the first time either they lowered the prices. As such this is very different. And the markets have responded; stock price performance isn’t great.

Whilst I agree that consumers mostly like lower prices. However one shouldn’t like it with depreciating assets as when you want to get rid the chances are that a new one is cheaper than a used one. Combine that with huge stock where you can get a new one within a couple of weeks (Berlin gigafactory) then no consumer who already bought one should be happy.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Disagree. I have never seen a customer upset about lower prices for mainstream brands. Every dealer in America has seasonal sales, and they work. People buy. They wait for sales.

This makes some sense for premium over-priced brands (Maserati, Land Rover, Jaguar, etc). But they sell on cache, not value. Outside of collectible super-cars, premium brands already suffer the worst depreciation, and that does not seem to hurt their niche markets. More than their cost/value, it seems like exclusivitiy is what props them up. Tesla is actively moving away from any sort of niche, cache, or exclusiveness in the market. No secret, very public, planned and being executed, at least with 3 and Y.

One example where I can think of a manufacturer lowering prices where the consumer isn’t happy is Jaguar Landrover. In some cases brand new Range Rovers have received a £25k-£30k reduction off the forecourt due to the fact thousands are being stolen across the UK. This has made models uninsurable and those who are on finance are realising their cars are worth £20k+ less than what they owe at the end of their agreement. It has really damaged the brand to the point nobody is buying these cars at the moment and those that are having to pay out for ghost immobilisers and facing £7k to £12k a year insurance premiums and that is if they can even get an insurance company to back them. It’s almost seen as a certain loss and far too much of a financial risk. Even JLR have had to set up alternative insurance divisions and it’s not guaranteed even they will insure.

Apparently a software fix is available, but the roll out is slower than the market can adjust to and meanwhile prices have fallen and sales have pretty much stalled. Not great for a premium brand in survival mode.

 

[Apple fanboy]

One example where I can think of a manufacturer lowering prices where the consumer isn’t happy is Jaguar Landrover. In some cases brand new Range Rovers have received a £25k-£30k reduction off the forecourt due to the fact thousands are being stolen across the UK. This has made models uninsurable and those who are on finance are realising their cars are worth £20k+ less than what they owe at the end of their agreement. It has really damaged the brand to the point nobody is buying these cars at the moment and those that are having to pay out for ghost immobilisers and facing £7k to £12k a year insurance premiums and that is if they can even get an insurance company to back them. It’s almost seen as a certain loss and far too much of a financial risk. Even JLR have had to set up alternative insurance divisions and it’s not guaranteed even they will insure.

Apparently a software fix is available, but the roll out is slower than the market can adjust to and meanwhile prices have fallen and sales have pretty much stalled. Not great for a premium brand in survival mode.

A friend had a Jaguar I-pace. It had a number of quite frustrating software problems.
Other than that it was a nice ride.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Another day and another day waking up to people I know posting articles on EV fires on social media. I do find it frustrating when these people are nice people, intelligent, have really good jobs and someone I would trust implicitly. They just haven’t got any experience of using EV’s but are spreading misinformation from a position of authority, or so they think. We met up with some friends last week and they commented that we had an EV and that they’d ’give up driving before they ever drive an EV’… Really? I got into a mild debate about it and the usual negatives came up like range isn’t good enough, the fire risk, too expensive to charge with current electricity prices (yep, really), too expensive to buy (that’s the only point I agreed with), and secondhand prices making EV’s worthless (contradicts the too expensive to buy claim). These people rarely travel further than Tenby which is just 90 miles away but they’ve believed enough of the posts online to have made their decision.

I honestly think the propaganda against EV’s is intensifying of late, despite the market growing. A lot of the older generation seem to be against them and it must be the fear of change I suppose. Ours hasn’t caught fire yet and we are still on the original battery despite doing a whopping 8.5k miles since August last year. Crazy how lucky we’ve been.

 

[sunapple]

Another day and another day waking up to people I know posting articles on EV fires on social media. I do find it frustrating when these people are nice people, intelligent, have really good jobs and someone I would trust implicitly. They just haven’t got any experience of using EV’s but are spreading misinformation from a position of authority, or so they think. We met up with some friends last week and they commented that we had an EV and that they’d ’give up driving before they ever drive an EV’… Really? I got into a mild debate about it and the usual negatives came up like range isn’t good enough, the fire risk, too expensive to charge with current electricity prices (yep, really), too expensive to buy (that’s the only point I agreed with), and secondhand prices making EV’s worthless (contradicts the too expensive to buy claim). These people rarely travel further than Tenby which is just 90 miles away but they’ve believed enough of the posts online to have made their decision.

I honestly think the propaganda against EV’s is intensifying of late, despite the market growing. A lot of the older generation seem to be against them and it must be the fear of change I suppose. Ours hasn’t caught fire yet and we are still on the original battery despite doing a whopping 8.5k miles since August last year. Crazy how lucky we’ve been.

The debates will not stop the transition to BEV, this is already underway and inevitable (big picture). So I don't think debates involving BEVs should always be seen as harmful or something to avoid at all times. I would think it would be very interesting to discuss the challenges of the largest transition in automotive history. When time comes to buy a new car, the majority of people choose what makes the most sense in terms of money anyway, you see that in all the market trends.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Another day and another day waking up to people I know posting articles on EV fires on social media. I do find it frustrating when these people are nice people, intelligent, have really good jobs and someone I would trust implicitly. They just haven’t got any experience of using EV’s but are spreading misinformation from a position of authority, or so they think. We met up with some friends last week and they commented that we had an EV and that they’d ’give up driving before they ever drive an EV’… Really? I got into a mild debate about it and the usual negatives came up like range isn’t good enough, the fire risk, too expensive to charge with current electricity prices (yep, really), too expensive to buy (that’s the only point I agreed with), and secondhand prices making EV’s worthless (contradicts the too expensive to buy claim). These people rarely travel further than Tenby which is just 90 miles away but they’ve believed enough of the posts online to have made their decision.

I honestly think the propaganda against EV’s is intensifying of late, despite the market growing. A lot of the older generation seem to be against them and it must be the fear of change I suppose. Ours hasn’t caught fire yet and we are still on the original battery despite doing a whopping 8.5k miles since August last year. Crazy how lucky we’ve been.

Weird isn’t it. But I think the internet doesn’t help. Every subject is so polarised online.
Do people really think so many of us would buy EV’s if they were so useless?
But naturally they think the opinion of non EV owners is more valid?

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

The debates will not stop the transition to BEV, this is already underway and inevitable (big picture). So I don't think debates involving BEVs should always be seen as harmful or something to avoid at all times. I would think it would be very interesting to discuss the challenges of the largest transition in automotive history. When time comes to buy a new car, the majority of people choose what makes the most sense in terms of money anyway, you see that in all the market trends.

Debates are fine and welcome, but my point is about people making things up and reposting false news in order to drive an agenda against something they have no knowledge or experience with. It’s a real problem across a variety of subjects in this day and age and can be very dangerous.

People will always buy what is in their budget, or lease beyond it in many cases.

 

[sunapple]

Debates are fine and welcome, but my point is about people making things up and reposting false news in order to drive an agenda against something they have no knowledge or experience with. It’s a real problem across a variety of subjects in this day and age and can be very dangerous.

People will always buy what is in their budget, or lease beyond it in many cases.

At the same time I see comments like; "I have never had range anxiety, therefore the article is anti-EV". I think that is on the same level of polarisation. YMMV has never been more relevant in a discussion

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

At the same time I see comments like; "I have never had range anxiety, therefore the article is anti-EV". I think that is on the same level of polarisation. YMMV has never been more relevant in a discussion

I don’t think it’s even remotely on the same level of polarisation and not something that gathers a following in any way the same way.

 

[I7guy]

A seasonal or dealer discount or finance incentive I agree.

But a structural lowering of prices is different than that. It really isn’t that different as to what they are doing. Perhaps it is for the USA but in Europe it really isn’t new and unique. The difference is that the listed price is nonnegotiable.

And it’s not the first time either they lowered the prices. As such this is very different. And the markets have responded; stock price performance isn’t great.

Whilst I agree that consumers mostly like lower prices. However one shouldn’t like it with depreciating assets as when you want to get rid the chances are that a new one is cheaper than a used one. Combine that with huge stock where you can get a new one within a couple of weeks (Berlin gigafactory) then no consumer who already bought one should be happy.

The downside to not decreasing prices to unsold inventory for legacy dealers is that cars pile up on the lots unsold costing the manufacturer and dealership money by the day. I think this type of thing mostly affects those who buy and sell cars yearly. While leasing companies may care about the residual, consumers get rid of the car a future point in time.

I would believe most CEOs don't have the mindset they have to manage the stock and not the company.

 

[hobowankenobi]

At the same time I see comments like; "I have never had range anxiety, therefore the article is anti-EV". I think that is on the same level of polarisation. YMMV has never been more relevant in a discussion

Well, maybe I am not normal, but I have never had range anxiety worth noting in 92,000 miles in a Model 3 rated at 265 miles of range when new...and with Tesla supercharging out there.

That is not an opinion, but it may be anecdotal. I do however feel skeptical about range anxiety arguments...in that most don't ring true. Many are worst-case scenarios, or folks that seem to be trying to run out of charge either on purpose or through gross negligence.

I mean I barely plan routes on long trips...usually more just timing stops for when I want a food break. I never use more than the in-car mapping. Only slightly more than I would do in any ICE vehicle.

Shorter-range car, non-Telsa charging...sure, I would have range anxiety on cross-country trips But now that NACS will be the new standard, and superchargers are opening up to other brands, much of that concern goes away.

 

[hobowankenobi]

A seasonal or dealer discount or finance incentive I agree.

But a structural lowering of prices is different than that. It really isn’t that different as to what they are doing. Perhaps it is for the USA but in Europe it really isn’t new and unique. The difference is that the listed price is nonnegotiable.

And it’s not the first time either they lowered the prices. As such this is very different. And the markets have responded; stock price performance isn’t great.

Whilst I agree that consumers mostly like lower prices. However one shouldn’t like it with depreciating assets as when you want to get rid the chances are that a new one is cheaper than a used one. Combine that with huge stock where you can get a new one within a couple of weeks (Berlin gigafactory) then no consumer who already bought one should be happy.

Yes, different.

Historically, all Japanese and Korean brands here in the US have been slowly, and conservatively moving up market in product, reputation, price, and likely margins.

I can't think of a brand moving down market specifically to increase volume, not just for profit, but to essentially change the entire market. That has been Tesla's stated goal since at least the release of Model S...which was what, 2012?

So yes, uncharted waters. I don't think there is a way to sell to the masses without lowering prices. Ironically, most naysayers complained over the years:

"Sure, Tesla makes a nice EV for the high-end market, but even if every BMW driver bought a Tesla, that would not even move the needle on switching the world to EVs. 2-3% of the market at most. Nche player. They need to lower prices and build cheaper EVs to even matter."

Telsa lowers prices, and the same crowd scoffs and says they are destroying value. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Strangely, the lowering cost/increasing value of the product is more in line with the tech industry than with the auto industry. For decades now we all have grudgingly accepted that whatever computer we buy...within a year or two there will be a better model, that is also cheaper. Waiting for the best value means never buying anything. The big difference is most of us don't depend on selling an old PC to buy a new one; resale is not a big issue.

And, this is not just a Tesla issue. All EVs are now in this cycle for the foreseeable future. No matter what we buy, within a few years, there will be a better (and cheaper) model to replace it. Until battery tech planes out and prices stop falling while range/durability/cost/charging performance/cold weather performance improvements stop coming, all used EV prices will suffer.

The closest analog I can think of in automotive was in the early '70s when the smog laws hit in the US...much of the emissions control tech was bad to horrible. This happened at the same time as the first gas price shocks. A decade or more later, as ICE tech improved and most of the smog requirements were engineered in, ICE engines got much better. Mid to late '70s car values went to near zero because nobody wanted to deal with the early tech and horrible milage.

The cost of progress?

 

[cyb3rdud3]

At the same time I see comments like; "I have never had range anxiety, therefore the article is anti-EV". I think that is on the same level of polarisation. YMMV has never been more relevant in a discussion

I agree. Everyone I know had range anxiety first (didn't last long with most vehicles on the road), and then charger anxiety (in the UK there was a time where one really would wonder whether it was working or not, but that is much rarer now). But to be fair, even 2 years in my wife has a little bit of the latter as she never charged in public. But it is just the first time.

The range is just not an issue with any of the cars on the road, as good as any can be measured in poronkusema.

The downside to not decreasing prices to unsold inventory for legacy dealers is that cars pile up on the lots unsold costing the manufacturer and dealership money by the day. I think this type of thing mostly affects those who buy and sell cars yearly. While leasing companies may care about the residual, consumers get rid of the car a future point in time.

I would believe most CEOs don't have the mindset they have to manage the stock and not the company.

True, but when they are with the dealers deals can be done through the network and not have a commonly known huge price drop, and when the reason or period as to why that happened is finished the MSRP can be applied. Smart buyers can make use of that, existing owners aren't affected, and all remains well. I managed to grab some amazing bargains that way, drove them like 2 years and managed to sell them for what I bought them.

 

[4sallypat]

.... But not that NACS will be the new standard, and superchargers are opening up to other brands, much of that concern goes away.

Yes, so happy Ford was the first to have Tesla become part of the Blue Oval Charge Network supporting Plug & Charge.

Love it that I don't have to use an app like EV Go, Electrify America, Shell ReCharge, ChargePoint, etc....

Just drive up to Tesla Superchargers, plug it in and walk away.

Helps to have a 3rd party NACS-CCS1 adapter from A2Z!

 

[I7guy]

[…].

True, but when they are with the dealers deals can be done through the network and not have a commonly known huge price drop, and when the reason or period as to why that happened is finished the MSRP can be applied. Smart buyers can make use of that, existing owners aren't affected, and all remains well. I managed to grab some amazing bargains that way, drove them like 2 years and managed to sell them for what I bought them.

It’s much more transparent the way Tesla prices their vehicles.

 

[hobowankenobi]

It’s much more transparent the way Tesla prices their vehicles.

Indeed. A paradox that the transparency is both good for buyers, but also causes at least perception issues.

Big sales from dealers would rarely if ever make the news...as they are perceived to be local or unique events, not an industry shift or trend. This is mostly a facade...but it still seems to work.

 

[hobowankenobi]

Here's an example of what is likely coming in the very near future (12 months or less).

How could EV prices not be falling with breakthroughs like this? Take battery tech along with manufacturing cost reductions (mega castings, etc), it will be great news for new car prices, but used EVs will suffer.