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Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk
- Thread starter PracticalMac
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I'd say it is perceived to be more transparent; I mean where did the margins go? They left out the middle men, does that make it more transparent? Or actually less?
I'd say any shop where you can't haggle is less transparent and reeks of price fixing.
I am seeing a lot of BYD Seal's on the roads over the last couple of weeks, mainly around South Wales and South West England. They appear to be filtering into the company car schemes and dare I say are a significant threat to Tesla in our market considering the price point and spec advantages. Nice looking cars in the flesh too.
We took our Audi Q4 on holiday last week and charged publicly everywhere we could just to get the experience of it a bit more. No issues and I actually dread too many people getting EV's as it is a pleasure turning up to crowded multi storey car parks and having free spaces for EV's.
We took our Audi Q4 on holiday last week and charged publicly everywhere we could just to get the experience of it a bit more. No issues and I actually dread too many people getting EV's as it is a pleasure turning up to crowded multi storey car parks and having free spaces for EV's.
You have to define the goal posts. To people who walk in to purchase a vehicle transparent = the price is the price listed, regardless of trade-in, cash or financing.
In the dealer model, they play games between trade-in value, vehicle price and financing/payment structure. This is something that there is no way to know what the actual vehicle cost to the consumer as the consumer. The middlemen are the part that makes the dealer model not transparent. If a car costs the same regardless of trade-in or financing this by definition is transparent.
We never ask the traditional manufactures within the dealer model how much they actually make per vehicle and debate if they are doing well or not based on vehicles sitting in dealer lots. Why does Tesla have to be held to a different standard? If you want a performance model of any vehicle in a dealer, you better already have a relationship with that dealer, or expect to pay 10's of thousands over sticker... Most dealers only let you pay that extra markup if you have a relationship...
Last time I walked into a traditional dealership was in 2017 when I was buying my Ram. There was a hellcat on the showroom floor that had a $25k dealership fee.
Every holiday and end of quarter (especially end of year) there are vehicle markdowns at every traditional dealer (EVERY HOLIDAY), they then proceed to make that money back off of trade-ins and/or financing. Tell them you are paying cash, and the price to you changes... This is what the consumer defines as not transparent...
I disagree it is more transparent. If you don’t like the spot price-dont buy the car. Not haggling takes a lot of annoyance out of the car buying process. The price is the price. And the entire process can be completed
In about 10 minutes.
Nearly all diplomatic cars in The Hague are BYD as well. Europol, Atomic Agency, Peace Courts, International Court for Human Rights. You name it.
Yet you do not know how much is made with direct sales either. I think you are fooling yourself if you think it’s transparent. The money is still being made, the middle men are simply removed as are the discounts.
None of what you mention has to do with transparency. Sure it is all correct but it isn’t more transparent.
Everything in live is negotiable, even fixed priced goods and services.
Tell me when you go into a grocery store and try to haggle the price of eggs down.....
I do indeed in the farm shops and on the market. And it is negotiable.
But that is not the point; some here praise the Tesla model for transparency I just don’t see it that way. They managed to cut out the middle men that is all.
Other manufacturers do the same; Polestar has a direct sales model in our territory. With BMW and Audi you can do either. I bought my wife’s BMW M2 Competition direct, using Apple Pay. Then picked it up from a dealer.
The model isn’t unique, and isn’t more transparent. And on top of it removes the ability to haggle and get a better deal.
This is why I started by pointing out you need to assign goal posts. You can't just use the word "transparent" without defining the word.
To the consumer Transparent has nothing to do with manufacture profit, it never has. It simply is to do with knowing that you are paying the same price as everyone else at the time of purchase.
With a dealer model there is no way to know this, and even in your example (which I'm pretty sure you can't do here in the US except with the new EV model like Tesla, Rivian, Lucid) of buying a car direct via Apple Pay you alluded to being able to get different prices (not sure how that even works). That would not be transparent by the definition that everyone uses.
Dealers post MSRP, the problem is, with the MSRP the middlemen make profits by adding costs around trade-ins and financing. They can reduce the cost to match MSRP then find their way to get that money back. So, in the end, they are by definition not being transparent as the cost to you as the consumer can change.
If you trade in a car with Tesla, if you opt to use their software to acquire financing, the price of the vehicle will be exactly the same to everyone. If at the last minute, you change from financing to cash, and/or remove your trade-in the actual cost of the car you are buying will not change.
Tesla does make a profit on setting up financing and makes profit from the wholesale of your trade-in but your cost for what you are getting is not tied to these.
And you are clearly not when the manufacturer willing nilly lowers the prices permanently. That is not a smart consumer, only caring at the time of purchases. That is a coping mechanism of not wanting to negotiate a large purchase and making oneself feel good as to pay the same as others who paid it on that day. I'm sure it works for some.
I prefer a better deal where some of that sales profit ends up in my pocket.
It seems that yet again your perceived lack of transparency (I never started using that word) related to a difference in the USA market versus Europe. Over here a dealer, and seller this is not specific to cars, needs to make the transaction clear. Finance is a separate product, any consumer should know that, and dealers have to explain that together with EU drafted documentation setting out their rights. So, it does happen that finance products can come with that own incentives and then it is clear that is not available to cash buyers. So if you want that incentive you got to take out the finance. I'm not one usually taking out finance for products other than a mortgage for a home, but if that means I can get the incentive and if it is a good one, then sure why not. But here is the interesting part, once it is taken out it becomes part of one transaction, and then other consumer protection laws would kick in such that any finance you take out comes with a cooling off period. During that period you could for example just pay off the finance and as a cash buyer you got the deal as well. A finance company is not allow at that moment to demand back their incentive.
No lack of transparency there in my opinion, all of this and more is clearly laid out up front. But yes, it is possible that one the same day two people pay a different price as they agreed on different deals. I don't see a problem with that, if you don't ask you don't get. One gets it for less, the other perhaps not, so at least one consumer wins whilst in the model of Tesla none win
And you are clearly not when the manufacturer willing nilly lowers the prices permanently. That is not a smart consumer, only caring at the time of purchases. That is a coping mechanism of not wanting to negotiate a large purchase and making oneself feel good as to pay the same as others who paid it on that day. I'm sure it works for some.
I prefer a better deal where some of that sales profit ends up in my pocket.
It seems that yet again your perceived lack of transparency (I never started using that word) related to a difference in the USA market versus Europe. Over here a dealer, and seller this is not specific to cars, needs to make the transaction clear. Finance is a separate product, any consumer should know that, and dealers have to explain that together with EU drafted documentation setting out their rights. So, it does happen that finance products can come with that own incentives and then it is clear that is not available to cash buyers. So if you want that incentive you got to take out the finance. I'm not one usually taking out finance for products other than a mortgage for a home, but if that means I can get the incentive and if it is a good one, then sure why not. But here is the interesting part, once it is taken out it becomes part of one transaction, and then other consumer protection laws would kick in such that any finance you take out comes with a cooling off period. During that period you could for example just pay off the finance and as a cash buyer you got the deal as well. A finance company is not allow at that moment to demand back their incentive.
No lack of transparency there in my opinion, all of this and more is clearly laid out up front. But yes, it is possible that one the same day two people pay a different price as they agreed on different deals. I don't see a problem with that, if you don't ask you don't get. One gets it for less, the other perhaps not, so at least one consumer wins whilst in the model of Tesla none win
Ok, since Telsa's model is not "transparent" in your eyes because there is no middleman and no bargaining in price. Your concern seems to be who makes profit, and take issue with Tesla deciding their own profit margin. Please let us know the manufacturer's profit margin of the last few cars you bought. I'm willing to bet you have NO idea. If this is the case, your argument holds no water, other than you prefer for a middleman to make money. It also means, you have no idea if you paid more over actual vehicle cost vs Tesla model because of the middleman... You also have no idea, if the person who bought the same car before you or after you paid more or less for the same car.
Tesla (really the new EV manufacturer direct to consumer model) or your prefered model there is no knowing the actual vehicle cost. You have Tesla's listing price and other's MSRP, both are decided by the manufacturer. Your preferred model adds middlemen and costs associated with that to the final selling price.
That's funny.
Try haggling at a gas station, Walmart, or McDonalds. That would be fun to watch.
Exactly, and I don't care. I am happy to haggle to a price that I'm happy with. But what I'm not happy with is when across the board the prices get lowered a few months later, and then do it again, and then do it once more as that affects existing buyers big time in their depreciation. We aren't talking about seasonable special or a dealer waving their margin to get their unit bonus etc, we are talking about structural and last (until the next one) lowering of prices.
OMG You are so in with Tesla, that really isn't their new direct to consumer model. Direct to consumer existed for a long time before that in many industries. The difference we are talking about about here is how they lower their prices for products that have an active second hand market and are depreciating assets. I can totally see why Tesla likes doing that, as it becomes more attractive to buy a new vehicle and they shift more units. It is not attractive for existing customers, and what I'm arguing not for new buying ones either. Definitely one of the many reasons it puts me off buying a Tesla and not even talking about the poor service, and terrible build quality (except the TM3 Highland it seems).
Always someone going in at extremes for low priced goods, comes across as cheap point scoring but isn't really relevant in the context mentioned. You never haggled on buying a car? You never haggled on buying a house? You never asked for any retailed to throw in something in the deal? How about with an employer or supplier? Never negotiated your salary?
Just an FYI, here in the US at least, all the major manufacturers reduced their MSRP on vehicles in the last 2 years since the Pandemic rush. During the Pandemic dealers were charging, in some cases $10k+ over MSRP which was also inflated because they had low volume. They were also adding major costs to used vehicles (and even more to CPO vehicles). So, the price you are actually discussing is the price OVER MSRP that dealers make.
Again, if Telsa's vehicles aren't for you, why do you care how much they increase or reduce the price, by your own words the interiors are too cheap for you? Your market is high end vehicles. Every high-end vehicle I've owned has been at the expense of the initial owner. When an S Class MB loses almost 20% value 3 years no one bats an eye.
In the US the dealer model was part of most state laws, until Tesla fought to change it state by state. There still are hold outs, which is why Tesla cannot sell vehicles in certain states (Alabama, South Carolina, West Virginia, Kansas, Louisiana, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Iowa). Some of these states even ban service centers. This is a fight that all the new EV manufacturers have to contend with.
It has nothing to do with love with Tesla, as you will note, I call it the "new EV manufacturer direct to consumer model" (Tesla, Rivian, Lucid) these are new manufacturers (that's what's new) that started without dealers. In the US it was, and still isn't the case for the legacy automakers to sell direct to the customer.
FYI, I bought 2 used Tesla's in the past year. I paid more than they cost new now. I have no issue with it. At the time, they were a great value for money as other manufacturers (mainly ICE) were charging more. Now all the other manufacturers have lowered prices, and so did Tesla, to keep their product competitive. So, you are saying Tesla should keep their prices higher, but everyone else can lower them? ICE Dealers have been lowering their prices by $7,500 to try to compete with the EV Tax Credit (if they can afford to do that, that should tell you how much profit playroom they have).
Since the pandemic, Tesla has kept their prices competitive. Resale value is not the responsibility of a manufacturer, especially at the expense of new car sales. If that was the case, MB, BWM, and Audi really need a talking to...
But I will move on. This really is something that is related to EVs, as they all have lowered prices. Rivian and Lucid lowered their prices by at least $20k. If you buy your vehicle for resale value, you are going to be in for a surprise. Here in the US, it really is only specialty vehicles and Trucks hold their values...
EDIT: I buy vehicles with the expectation that I will keep them until they are "totaled" in my eyes. Either via accident or risk of repair cost. I don't buy for trade-in/resale value.
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Even Lucid has some crazy leasing deals...
$3k due at signing $649 per month (they take that $7500 tax credit). The fine print says 10k miles per year with a max vehicle cost of $71k for RWD air.
For Lucid, I imagine they want to lease vehicles so they can move the vehicles, as from everything I hear they are losing money. I wonder if they put the contract that you cannot sell/transfer the vehicle/lease like Tesla does...
Source:
Accelerating the EV Experience
Lucid Air, America’s most awarded new luxury vehicle, starting now from $69,900² including $1,000 Charging Allowance and two years of complimentary Lucid Care scheduled maintenance with purchase or lease.
Most of those things are not retail purchases.
Real estate is a very particular case, and not manufactured. Very subjective. Same with salaries.
Manufactured goods with hard costs are mostly not negotiable. Looking at total number of transactions, it is not even close. I would bet well over 95% of sales (at least in the US) have no room for haggling.
Cars are the single big outlier, and that is now changing, partly due due to Tesla's direct sales model. Saturn did this years ago, and the vast majority of shoppers loved it. Now, as you point out, others are dipping a toe in the haggle-free pool too.
I had a good friend work at a BMW-Nissan dealership as a salesman. Hello yes, they made everything as opaque as possible to hide and confuse true costs and margins. He would be the first to tell anyone the whole thing is game designed to ring every buck they can out of every buyer, primarily by keeping it nearly impossible to easily shop like-for-like cars, options, financing, and trade-in value at other dealerships.
You are free to believe whatever you like. There is no argument that will sway my opinion, based on my experiences.
Sounds like you like to haggle, and don't want to lose that option. Most people I know would love to kill haggling, at least with cars.
Good friends just bought their first EV. Not really Tesla fans, so checked out the Ford Mach E first. Dealer experience was terrible. Ended up buying a Model Y partly due partly to the no haggle, no pressure experience. They raved about the difference between the dealership and the showroom...night and day.
I look forward to when most "things" are being offered as a service with a monthly fee such as cars, phones, home appliance etc.. Doesn't have to mean that haggle is a thing of the past but still makes life easier and it will hopefully make the lifecycle a lot longer on "things".
But isn’t that like today? There is MSRP, if you are happy and don’t want to haggle just pay that 🤷♂️ or list price or sticker price whatever it is called in your area.
Today there is the choice. In the new model that is eliminated.
On a different note. I had a Kia EV9 yesterday. It was only a 2wd rear wheels but it was very good. Very impressive. Great drive train, super quiet. Very good seats and tech. Loved it.
Kia/Hyundai is good stuff, almost every knew EV they bring out seem to be well engineered stuff.