Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[diamond.g]

Misha took a new TM3 Performance around the Nurburgring. Interesting read, great car, bad brakes...

New Record?! Got to drive the new ... - Misha Charoudin

New Record?! Got to drive the new 2024 Tesla Model 3 Performance. Handling is fantastic. The brakes are... horrible and dangerous as ever. Catching fire by 5th kilometer of the track. Why. Just why?...

www.facebook.com

The LG battery (that they use) is handicapping the Euro spec cars.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

And the video is now available.

https://fb.watch/tea5inpzAK/

 

[JT2002TJ]

Porsche got some interesting split charging with their new platform. That also helps the system further and make use of existing slower infrastructure where the chargers are limited to only 150kW

Yeah, the Cybertruck has that as well. It’s 2x 400V to make up the 800V.

But I specifically question the custom creation of a sports car that has 5 minute charging. They can get away with it because the vehicle is very light, and possibly doesn’t have all the required safety equipment that would be required for general vehicle sales. But, any new tech is good tech that has to start somewhere before it is affordable.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Misha took a new TM3 Performance around the Nurburgring. Interesting read, great car, bad brakes...

New Record?! Got to drive the new ... - Misha Charoudin

New Record?! Got to drive the new 2024 Tesla Model 3 Performance. Handling is fantastic. The brakes are... horrible and dangerous as ever. Catching fire by 5th kilometer of the track. Why. Just why?...

www.facebook.com

Same thing he said about the Plaid, until Tesla released the Track Pack version. There is no reason for the regular TM3P or TMS Plaid to come with ceramic brakes for everyday use, they perform worse than regular brakes on street. When you have a dedicated track vehicle, that’s when it is needed. I’m sure Tesla (or aftermarket) will come out with a track brake version for the new TM3P.

I think we have different batteries here in the US, so the battery issue is specific to the vehicle tested.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Same thing he said about the Plaid, until Tesla released the Track Pack version. There is no reason for the regular TM3P or TMS Plaid to come with ceramic brakes for everyday use, they perform worse than regular brakes on street. When you have a dedicated track vehicle, that’s when it is needed. I’m sure Tesla (or aftermarket) will come out with a track brake version for the new TM3P.

I think we have different batteries here in the US, so the battery issue is specific to the vehicle tested.

It’s a cultural thing. Over here people take their car or company car after work to have a lap on the ring. You get a lot of normal cars. So it actually does matter. My BMW M2C had a good brake kit. Misha also took the Polestar with performance pack twice. After the first time Polestar listened and updated the battery management system. So the updated version, which I’ve got as well, doesn’t have the thermal issues.

Let’s hope Tesla listens, us consumers benefit opposed to excusing them.

 

[I7guy]

It’s a cultural thing. Over here people take their car or company car after work to have a lap on the ring. You get a lot of normal cars. So it actually does matter. My BMW M2C had a good brake kit. Misha also took the Polestar with performance pack twice. After the first time Polestar listened and updated the battery management system. So the updated version, which I’ve got as well, doesn’t have the thermal issues.

Let’s hope Tesla listens, us consumers benefit opposed to excusing them.

Here in the US apparently for the most part it’s against the insurance policy T&c to track your car. You get into an accident on the track and claim denied.

 

[oneMadRssn]

What do you guys think about buying a Rivian R1S Gen2 with the pre-order 20%-off discount?

I don't need a new car right now at all. I have a 2022 Hyundai Ioniq EV (~175mi range). It's an almost perfect utilitarian car - very efficient, no qualms with it, fits groceries, gets us from A to B, I wfh so I drive ~20 miles per week on average. When I need to fit more stuff in the car (like kids bikes, etc.) or need to go somewhere that would be 100+ miles round-trip, I swap cars with my wife.

But I have the Rivian pre-order pricing which expires at the end of September. I test drove one and I love it! It's fun, it looks cool, it's comfortable, I love the two-piece hatch. If we got the Rivian, we would definitely use the Rivian more for weekend trips and vacations and leave the ICE car at home more often.

I could get a Rivian R1S Gen2 with the Max battery pack for roughly $73k, or I could get a Rivian R1S Gen2 with Standard battery pack for roughly $61k. I don't neeeeeeed it. But I kind of waaaaaant it.

... or I could get my $1k deposit back.

 

[Apple fanboy]

What do you guys think about buying a Rivian R1S Gen2 with the pre-order 20%-off discount?

I don't need a new car right now at all. I have a 2022 Hyundai Ioniq EV (~175mi range). It's an almost perfect utilitarian car - very efficient, no qualms with it, fits groceries, gets us from A to B, I wfh so I drive ~20 miles per week on average. When I need to fit more stuff in the car (like kids bikes, etc.) or need to go somewhere that would be 100+ miles round-trip, I swap cars with my wife.

But I have the Rivian pre-order pricing which expires at the end of September. I test drove one and I love it! It's fun, it looks cool, it's comfortable, I love the two-piece hatch. If we got the Rivian, we would definitely use the Rivian more for weekend trips and vacations and leave the ICE car at home more often.

I could get a Rivian R1S Gen2 with the Max battery pack for roughly $73k, or I could get a Rivian R1S Gen2 with Standard battery pack for roughly $61k. I don't neeeeeeed it. But I kind of waaaaaant it.

... or I could get my $1k deposit back.

It’s your money, but for your usage the standard battery makes sense. Well unless you have $12k lying around you don’t want.

 

[JT2002TJ]

It’s a cultural thing. Over here people take their car or company car after work to have a lap on the ring. You get a lot of normal cars. So it actually does matter. My BMW M2C had a good brake kit. Misha also took the Polestar with performance pack twice. After the first time Polestar listened and updated the battery management system. So the updated version, which I’ve got as well, doesn’t have the thermal issues.

Let’s hope Tesla listens, us consumers benefit opposed to excusing them.

If you look at all the owners of M2C’s or any other high performance cars, even where you are, I’m sure much higher than 90% of never taken their vehicles on a track. There are few who do, and when they do, you are absolutely right, they need better brakes. The Plaid and the new TM3P need ceramic brakes to keep up with the speed they have on a track. This is $20k, it makes more sense to have the few modify theirs vs. everyone pay more for something they don’t need.

Ceramic brakes do not perform well on the street, they require heat before they are effective. Bigger non-Ceramic brakes would still be better, but still inadequate for the performance of these vehicles on a track (especially with Misha’s driving abilities). These bigger brakes are unnecessary for DD, so another added cost that isn’t really needed.

I think they should offer an upgrade kit, like they do with the Plaid, for those who are going to actually track their vehicles, or better yet, leave it to the aftermarket. But there is no reason to change the assembly line which would increase costs for everyone, just to facilitate an extremely small population for something that is unnecessary for majority of owners.

 

[jz0309]

What do you guys think about buying a Rivian R1S Gen2 with the pre-order 20%-off discount?

I don't need a new car right now at all. I have a 2022 Hyundai Ioniq EV (~175mi range). It's an almost perfect utilitarian car - very efficient, no qualms with it, fits groceries, gets us from A to B, I wfh so I drive ~20 miles per week on average. When I need to fit more stuff in the car (like kids bikes, etc.) or need to go somewhere that would be 100+ miles round-trip, I swap cars with my wife.

But I have the Rivian pre-order pricing which expires at the end of September. I test drove one and I love it! It's fun, it looks cool, it's comfortable, I love the two-piece hatch. If we got the Rivian, we would definitely use the Rivian more for weekend trips and vacations and leave the ICE car at home more often.

I could get a Rivian R1S Gen2 with the Max battery pack for roughly $73k, or I could get a Rivian R1S Gen2 with Standard battery pack for roughly $61k. I don't neeeeeeed it. But I kind of waaaaaant it.

... or I could get my $1k deposit back.

this is to be released in 2025 or 2026, right? If you can afford it, sure treat yourself accordingly ...

 

[Tagbert]

this is to be released in 2025 or 2026, right? If you can afford it, sure treat yourself accordingly ...

No, this is the R1 and I assume that the gen 2 is already out or will be soon.

 

[jz0309]

No, this is the R1 and I assume that the gen 2 is already out or will be soon.

Ok, Thanks, I have to admit that I’m not paying too much attention to their lineup as they are way more than I’d be willing to spend on any car, short of a lottery win

 

[Tagbert]

Ok, Thanks, I have to admit that I’m not paying too much attention to their lineup as they are way more than I’d be willing to spend on any car, short of a lottery win

Their next model, the R2, is the one coming out in 2025 or 26. That‘s pretty close to R1 so its an easy thing to mistake.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Here in the US apparently for the most part it’s against the insurance policy T&c to track your car. You get into an accident on the track and claim denied.

Hehehe same here 😬😇 And it’s expensive when you crash, even before you think about the costs to your own vehicle. The track recovery, cleaning runs in thousands, and if it has to be closed double that 🤷‍♂️

It’s a motivation not to crash, not to do silly things. When you see Misha drive like that (and that BMW before them), the exposure is all on the Tesla owner in the passenger seat.

Still good fun 🤩

 

[diamond.g]

If you look at all the owners of M2C’s or any other high performance cars, even where you are, I’m sure much higher than 90% of never taken their vehicles on a track. There are few who do, and when they do, you are absolutely right, they need better brakes. The Plaid and the new TM3P need ceramic brakes to keep up with the speed they have on a track. This is $20k, it makes more sense to have the few modify theirs vs. everyone pay more for something they don’t need.

Ceramic brakes do not perform well on the street, they require heat before they are effective. Bigger non-Ceramic brakes would still be better, but still inadequate for the performance of these vehicles on a track (especially with Misha’s driving abilities). These bigger brakes are unnecessary for DD, so another added cost that isn’t really needed.

I think they should offer an upgrade kit, like they do with the Plaid, for those who are going to actually track their vehicles, or better yet, leave it to the aftermarket. But there is no reason to change the assembly line which would increase costs for everyone, just to facilitate an extremely small population for something that is unnecessary for majority of owners.

Eh, they could have made it a 20k upgrade at time of order (which they should do for the Plaid as well). That is about the going rate for Carbon Ceramics on other brands (which can be optioned during build time). At the rate they are making M3P's it probably wouldn't have impacted things too badly (since the brakes are already different from the Standard 3's).

 

[oneMadRssn]

this is to be released in 2025 or 2026, right? If you can afford it, sure treat yourself accordingly ...

Nah, the Gen2 R1S and R1T are out right now.

No, this is the R1 and I assume that the gen 2 is already out or will be soon.

Correct, it's out and being delivered today.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Eh, they could have made it a 20k upgrade at time of order (which they should do for the Plaid as well). That is about the going rate for Carbon Ceramics on other brands (which can be optioned during build time). At the rate they are making M3P's it probably wouldn't have impacted things too badly (since the brakes are already different from the Standard 3's).

Plaid has a track pack option. It is about $20k. They do not stop the assembly line, they have it installed as an upgrade at the local Service Center. This is the right way to do it to keep production costs down. No need to make a custom option for brakes at assembly, that <1% would use, when it can be installed at or post delivery.

Tesla has been adding these upgrades slowly. For example, I have added the power trunk to my TM3, and added bio defense mode (HEPA filter) to my TMY, both were options for later models, that were Service Center upgraded.

If you watch Misha’s videos, you can see his review of a S Plaid with the track pack on the ring.

It would be nice for them to also make it an option for the new TM3P, but I assume there would have to be enough demand. This is something aftermarket typically does cheaper and faster.

Price includes software unlock for 200 mph and better performance, wheels tires, brake upgrade (fluid, calipers, rotors, pads). Which for what you get, including software upgrade, that seems fair.

Model S Plaid Track Package

Designed for the ultimate track experience, the Model S Plaid Track Package delivers high-speed stability, maximum cornering force and repeatable stopping power during high-performance driving while unlocking a top speed of 200 mph. The Track Package includes aluminum forged wheels, track-ready...

shop.tesla.com

 

[JT2002TJ]

Eh, they could have made it a 20k upgrade at time of order (which they should do for the Plaid as well). That is about the going rate for Carbon Ceramics on other brands (which can be optioned during build time). At the rate they are making M3P's it probably wouldn't have impacted things too badly (since the brakes are already different from the Standard 3's).

From my understanding, at least with the pre-facelift TMYP, the brakes were no longer different. They were true bembros at one point, but they changed to just red painted calipers, same rotors with different pads (more aggressive). I think they realized, as I was saying, that if 99% of owners never track their TM3P, they could cut the costs on the brakes.

I haven’t learned enough about the new TM3P, to know if they really are different brakes (calipers and rotors).

But real true ceramic brakes would be very ineffective, almost dangerous for the everyday driver. Since with Tesla’s heavy use of regenerative braking, our brakes don’t really get much use. So in that moment you need emergency braking, beyond regen, there would be a risk of ineffective brakes. This would make it a track vehicle only (unless you swapped brakes before the track which I don’t think the everyday driver would).

 

[cyb3rdud3]

From my understanding, at least with the pre-facelift TMYP, the brakes were no longer different. They were true bembros at one point, but they changed to just red painted calipers, same rotors with different pads (more aggressive). I think they realized, as I was saying, that if 99% of owners never track their TM3P, they could cut the costs on the brakes.

I haven’t learned enough about the new TM3P, to know if they really are different brakes (calipers and rotors).

But real true ceramic brakes would be very ineffective, almost dangerous for the everyday driver. Since with Tesla’s heavy use of regenerative braking, our brakes don’t really get much use. So in that moment you need emergency braking, beyond regen, there would be a risk of ineffective brakes. This would make it a track vehicle only (unless you swapped brakes before the track which I don’t think the everyday driver would).

Porsche ceramic brake kit works just fine on the road. No special driving required.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Porsche ceramic brake kit works just fine on the road. No special driving required.

Does porsche have adjustable regen braking? I’m specifically talking about Tesla (S Plaid and new TM3P), which uses heavy regen braking and doesn’t give you settings on the road (you do in track mode). I’m going to guess that Porsche uses more physical brakes than Tesla does.

In the little research I did, anecdotally I’m seeing Taycan Turbo owners with ceramic option reporting spongy brakes until they reach operating temperature.

But I have never owned any vehicles with true ceramic brakes, so I am just going by what I am reading. Ceramic brakes are known for not working as well until hitting optimal temperature and squeaking when not used properly (braking late and hard).

 

[Apple fanboy]

So much talk about brakes in an EV thread. I practically never use mine. The exception being the pheasants and cars coming at speed down the country lanes where I live. I’m guessing both have similar sized brains!

Meanwhile I’m at another hotel for work. 3 charges in the car park.
So starting my day on 100% is a good place to be.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Does porsche have adjustable regen braking? I’m specifically talking about Tesla (S Plaid and new TM3P), which uses heavy regen braking and doesn’t give you settings on the road (you do in track mode). I’m going to guess that Porsche uses more physical brakes than Tesla does.

Absolutely does, yes. The force from regeneration alone is nowhere enough on a track. Unless I'm mistaken, Tesla doesn't do blended braking like Porsche, Polestar, Lotus etc. So Tesla would for that purpose start with a disadvantage in the consistent feel already. Under normal circumstances the Tesla post raven (mid 2019) is great in mine opinion for driving around until pushing it hard. Each approach has it advantages and disadvantages. For example, I love a blended brake setup, but when wet and you hit a manhole cover whilst braking hard it can cause an unnatural feeling and feels (doesn't actually happen) that you speed up for a moment. But on a dry twisty road with hairpin bends, its lovely in my opinion.

I'm sorry I took it that you mean that carbon brakes don't work on the road in general, not specifically to Tesla. They work very well with normal cars and driving conditions, just are considered too expensive for ordinary cars by many. And in some case they are, but plenty of after market available nowadays.

In the little research I did, anecdotally I’m seeing Taycan Turbo owners with ceramic option reporting spongy brakes until they reach operating temperature.

But I have never owned any vehicles with true ceramic brakes, so I am just going by what I am reading. Ceramic brakes are known for not working as well until hitting optimal temperature and squeaking when not used properly (braking late and hard).

Yes, 'true' or 'racing' ceramic brakes, that is the case. That is why the racing kind is rarely utilised in road cars. From that perspective, Porsche PCCB option (basically any Porsche with yellow calipers, that is an easy way to identify them) for example are perfect for everyday use and the occasional track day.

So much talk about brakes in an EV thread. I practically never use mine. The exception being the pheasants and cars coming at speed down the country lanes where I live. I’m guessing both have similar sized brains!

Oh, behave, no need to refer to people like that. We are talking about track days, on a circuit. And you may be amazed, but EVs are taken to a track as well. Manufacturers make performance versions of them. And yes, you then need to use your brakes.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

So much talk about brakes in an EV thread. I practically never use mine. The exception being the pheasants and cars coming at speed down the country lanes where I live. I’m guessing both have similar sized brains!

Meanwhile I’m at another hotel for work. 3 charges in the car park.
So starting my day on 100% is a good place to be.

Same for us when driving our Q4 if set in B mode around town or D on open roads with a distance limiter. However I had an incident last week where a lad pulled out of a car park near where I live as I was approaching and doing 40mph. I stamped on the brakes and was impressed how well the car stopped in such a short distance. Who says heavy EV's don't stop? Didn't want another bump in as many weeks, just got my A4 back from a bumper re-spray, only cost £200 and the lad who hit me was more than happy with that lol.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I live in the NYC area (Nassau County) and commute into NYC for work. I don’t use the brakes much, but when I do, it is because someone pulled in front of me, and regen needs some help. I have to be sure that I have fully effective brakes, even when cold. Typically Tesla’s regen is enough to where I don’t touch my brakes unless an incident like above happens. So for me, I love the might of Tesla’s regen.

This is why I was saying I think for the TMS Plaid and new TM3P a ceramic option would be good (like already offered for the Plaid), but not really something that should be standard, or even inserted into the assembly line. Service Center upgrade will address the 1% who actually want to spend $15-$20k on a $40-$45k car (TM3P US price with tax credit), for the track.

The brakes already included are perfectly adequate for the 99%.

EDIT: I know blended brakes are specific to 2 pedal driving where the OS applies regen when the user pressed the brake pedal to apply friction brakes. But, I really think the term Blended brakes should be any time regen and friction brakes are applied together. Tesla does have the option to apply friction brakes when regen is limited. So, although I do not touch the brake pedal, friction brakes are applied via the OS when it deems regen is not enough to complete the stop/slow down. This is why I only touch the brake pedal under extreme stops.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I live in the NYC area (Nassau County) and commute into NYC for work. I don’t use the brakes much, but when I do, it is because someone pulled in front of me, and regen needs some help. I have to be sure that I have fully effective brakes, even when cold. Typically Tesla’s regen is enough to where I don’t touch my brakes unless an incident like above happens. So for me, I love the might of Tesla’s regen.

This is why I was saying I think for the TMS Plaid and new TM3P a ceramic option would be good (like already offered for the Plaid), but not really something that should be standard, or even inserted into the assembly line. Service Center upgrade will address the 1% who actually want to spend $15-$20k on a $40-$45k car (TM3P US price with tax credit), for the track.

The brakes already included are perfectly adequate for the 99%.

EDIT: I know blended brakes are specific to 2 pedal driving where the OS applies regen when the user pressed the brake pedal to apply friction brakes. But, I really think the term Blended brakes should be any time regen and friction brakes are applied together. Tesla does have the option to apply friction brakes when regen is limited. So, although I do not touch the brake pedal, friction brakes are applied via the OS when it deems regen is not enough to complete the stop/slow down. This is why I only touch the brake pedal under extreme stops.

That is not correct. Blended braking can be used together with OPD. That is exactly how the Polestars are setup.