Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[JT2002TJ]

That is not correct. Blended braking can be used together with OPD. That is exactly how the Polestars are setup.

My understanding is the term blended brakes refers to pushing a brake pedal, and the OS blends regen and friction.

Since Tesla’s pedal can only apply friction brakes they are not considered blended braking.

Im saying that I think the term should be more inclusive and include when OPD does regen and applies brakes. But this isn’t considered blended braking.

It is in fact blending regen and friction brakes…

At least that is how I understand it.

 

[Apple fanboy]

My understanding is the term blended brakes refers to pushing a brake pedal, and the OS blends regen and friction.

Since Tesla’s pedal can only apply friction brakes they are not considered blended braking.

Im saying that I think the term should be more inclusive and include when OPD does regen and applies brakes. But this isn’t considered blended braking.

It is in fact blending regen and friction brakes…

At least that is how I understand it.

But surly if you are not applying any throttle it is applying regen braking. Then if you apply the brake pedal. You get traditional friction brakes as well.
I’m pretty sure that’s how it works in my BMW.

 

[profcutter]

We ended up with a VW ID.4 Pro S Rear wheel drive. We hadn’t planned on it. I was actually looking for a deal on an EV 6. The local KIA dealers were so sleazy, one refused to let us test drive one until we agreed to 800/month lease payment.

The VW dealer was much easier to work with, they gave us a reasonable amount for our Tiguan, even though it needed tires and had all manner of engine faults (I reset the CEL, but they can’t have not realized the problems, if I can hook up a cable so can they). I think they were just desperate to move ID.4s because they’re not selling very well.

After a few months, the ID.4 is uninspiring, but works fine except for software glitches, which are plentiful. I love not buying gas, though I’m keeping my manual GTI for my regular long distance commute. My wife is happy that it’s an SUV, once we get back to work in the fall it will be her car.

We installed a 50 Amp outlet, cost us 1200 dollars including the run all the way across the house through the basement. Charges fine, and we’re generally not worried about running out of charge like we were with the 110v charging.

It does NOT like speeding. The range drops significantly over 65 MPH which is a shame, the GTI is happy at 80-90 all day long.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

My understanding is the term blended brakes refers to pushing a brake pedal, and the OS blends regen and friction.

Since Tesla’s pedal can only apply friction brakes they are not considered blended braking.

It does partially, but then it should also do that in OPD driving.

Im saying that I think the term should be more inclusive and include when OPD does regen and applies brakes. But this isn’t considered blended braking.

It does, but then it should also (not only, also) work like that when pushing the brake pedal. That is how Polestar does it and a few others.

It is in fact blending regen and friction brakes…

At least that is how I understand it.

It is indeed, but in which ever way.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

But surly if you are not applying any throttle it is applying regen braking. Then if you apply the brake pedal. You get traditional friction brakes as well.
I’m pretty sure that’s how it works in my BMW.

That is not blended braking, though. When it is blended, it is seamless for you as a user. Not one way using OPD and not another way using the brake pedal. Your BMW does not have it.

 

[diamond.g]

That is not blended braking, though. When it is blended, it is seamless for you as a user. Not one way using OPD and not another way using the brake pedal. Your BMW does not have it.

The easier way of thinking about it, if you cannot turn regen off when braking you have blended brakes.

Tesla doesn't consider their braking system to be blended because pressing the brakes don't actually engage regen (they probably could if they wanted to, but they don't). Their "blending" only occurs when regen is considered to be limited, and you can turn that feature off.

That leads me to wonder if any other EV allows you to turn off regen on braking.

 

[JT2002TJ]

This is what I’m saying. Any time the OS can apply regen and friction brakes at the same time (and decide how much of each to apply) that should be considered blended braking.

Tesla does this if you turn on the feature. It will use regen and if regen isn't enough (or limited because of battery state), it will apply friction brakes. This works for 90%+ of stopping. But is a function of OPD. Tesla cannot limit friction brakes, it is a hard connection between pedal and friction brakes. Tesla could increase regen so the driver doesn‘t have to apply as much friction brakes, but the OS is not blending the two, the driver is.

Blended braking is traditionally defined as when you press the brake pedal the OS can adjust how much regen and friction you use.

If the vehicle is already using regen (limited or not), and you manually apply friction brakes above that regen it isn’t blended, because the OS isn’t “blending” you are blending it with your foot and the amount of force you apply.

But I’m saying the definition should evolve to either way. Since the OS is technically blending regen and friction brakes, either via OPD, brake pedal, or both.

 

[profcutter]

There’s a whole article on just this topic on the autopian.

Why An Electric Car's Brakes Work Differently Than A Gas Car's, And Why You Shouldn't Be Scared Of 'Brake By Wire' - The Autopian

With the advent and growing popularity of EV’s, manufacturers have been working to electrify the various smaller systems that used to be powered by the internal combustion engine — systems like steering, HVAC, and brakes. All of these used to be powered by engine-driven pumps, compressors, and...

www.theautopian.com

 

[Tagbert]

The easier way of thinking about it, if you cannot turn regen off when braking you have blended brakes.

Tesla doesn't consider their braking system to be blended because pressing the brakes don't actually engage regen (they probably could if they wanted to, but they don't). Their "blending" only occurs when regen is considered to be limited, and you can turn that feature off.

That leads me to wonder if any other EV allows you to turn off regen on braking.

Most other EV makers already do blended regen when using the brakes so the automatic regen is just replaced by the regen on the pedal when you use it. You aren’t going to get doubled regen when pressing the brakes. Tesla is an outlier in not have blended brakes. I haven’t seen any that will allow you to turn off the blending. They probably figure that there is no downside to having it enabled. I agree.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

This is what I’m saying. Any time the OS can apply regen and friction brakes at the same time (and decide how much of each to apply) that should be considered blended braking.

Tesla does this if you turn on the feature. It will use regen and if regen isn't enough (or limited because of battery state), it will apply friction brakes. This works for 90%+ of stopping. But is a function of OPD. Tesla cannot limit friction brakes, it is a hard connection between pedal and friction brakes. Tesla could increase regen so the driver doesn‘t have to apply as much friction brakes, but the OS is not blending the two, the driver is.

Blended braking is traditionally defined as when you press the brake pedal the OS can adjust how much regen and friction you use.

If the vehicle is already using regen (limited or not), and you manually apply friction brakes above that regen it isn’t blended, because the OS isn’t “blending” you are blending it with your foot and the amount of force you apply.

But I’m saying the definition should evolve to either way. Since the OS is technically blending regen and friction brakes, either via OPD, brake pedal, or both.

Read like a redefinition of what blended braking is so that it fits with what Tesla is doing, which is clearly not blended braking. 🤷‍♂️

 

[JT2002TJ]

Read like a redefinition of what blended braking is so that it fits with what Tesla is doing, which is clearly not blended braking. 🤷‍♂️

I mean, it IS blending brakes and regen. When the term came out, there weren’t vehicles with regen that applied brakes (that I’m aware of), now there are several, not just Tesla.

I’m going to call it “Blended Regen”

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I mean, it IS blending brakes and regen. When the term came out, there weren’t vehicles with regen that applied brakes (that I’m aware of), now there are several, not just Tesla.

I’m going to call it “Blended Regen”

You really love Tesla don’t you? 🤣

 

[JT2002TJ]

You really love Tesla don’t you? 🤣

As I mentioned, there are several manufacturers that went the same route as Tesla. So, this is not a Tesla thing. Yes, I do love my Teslas, but this point has to do with terms for functions, regardless of manufacturer.

We need a term that we all can understand that lets the reader understand what we are talking about. I think “Blended Regen” may be a good compromise that still points out the difference between this deployment and Blended Braking.

Blended Braking - Driver presses the brake pedal, the vehicle blends regen and friction brakes (can reduce friction).
Blended Regen - Driver reduces/releases accelerator, the vehicle blends regen and friction brakes (can add friction).

That’s what I’m gonna go with… Unless there already is a universal term that I am unaware of.

 

[diamond.g]

As I mentioned, there are several manufacturers that went the same route as Tesla. So, this is not a Tesla thing. Yes, I do love my Teslas, but this point has to do with terms for functions, regardless of manufacturer.

We need a term that we all can understand that lets the reader understand what we are talking about. I think “Blended Regen” may be a good compromise that still points out the difference between this deployment and Blended Braking.

Blended Braking - Driver presses the brake pedal, the vehicle blends regen and friction brakes (can reduce friction).
Blended Regen - Driver reduces/releases accelerator, the vehicle blends regen and friction brakes (can add friction).

That’s what I’m gonna go with… Unless there already is a universal term that I am unaware of.

Aside from Lucid (and Tesla), who else doesn't have Regen on braking?

 

[JT2002TJ]

Aside from Lucid (and Tesla), who else doesn't have Regen on braking?

It is not a matter of if regen is active while braking. It is a matter of what happens when you press the brake pedal. Audi’s /VAG will apply regen when you press the brake pedal, then if you press it harder it will apply friction brakes. This is the definition of Brake Blending. The fact that the pedal itself blends Regen and Friction (the OS can increase regen and/or reduce friction)

What I’m calling Blended Regen, is when the vehicle applies friction brakes if regen is either limited or not enough to complete the required stop. This happens without the driver touching the pedal. Rivian has this, and Tesla added it (wasn’t originally there). Also, I believe most EVs that are fully charged or the batteries aren’t within the manufactures desired temperature range will limit or stop regen to preserve the batteries.

A vehicle could have both Blended Brakes and Blended Regen. Mainly if you have the ability to turn on/off One Pedal Driving.

In some of the truck EV towing videos, they talked about how the OS reducing/removing regen without supplementing it with friction brakes made for a not so good user experience. The driver expects a certain level of stopping power via regen, and the OS just took it away.

 

[profcutter]

It is not a matter of if regen is active while braking. It is a matter of what happens when you press the brake pedal. Audi’s /VAG will apply regen when you press the brake pedal, then if you press it harder it will apply friction brakes. This is the definition of Brake Blending. The fact that the pedal itself blends Regen and Friction (the OS can increase regen and/or reduce friction)

What I’m calling Blended Regen, is when the vehicle applies friction brakes if regen is either limited or not enough to complete the required stop. This happens without the driver touching the pedal. Rivian has this, and Tesla added it (wasn’t originally there). Also, I believe most EVs that are fully charged or the batteries aren’t within the manufactures desired temperature range will limit or stop regen to preserve the batteries.

A vehicle could have both Blended Brakes and Blended Regen. Mainly if you have the ability to turn on/off One Pedal Driving.

In some of the truck EV towing videos, they talked about how the OS reducing/removing regen without supplementing it with friction brakes made for a not so good user experience. The driver expects a certain level of stopping power via regen, and the OS just took it away.

I mean to your latter point, isn’t that what the “B” setting is for? It feels a bit like engine braking on an automatic. Not as much as my old manual TDI, but present nonetheless.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I mean to your latter point, isn’t that what the “B” setting is for? It feels a bit like engine braking on an automatic. Not as much as my old manual TDI, but present nonetheless.

Sometimes regen can be limited, at least with Rivian, Tesla and others (I think). So when you expect Regen, but the OS limits it (reduces it or removes it) you reduced the accelerator pedal and find yourself unexpectedly coasting. With “Blended Regen” the vehicle would apply friction brakes to mimic regen.

This is a setting on Teslas called “apply brakes when regen is limited.” I don’t know what other manufacturers call it. Which is why I’m saying we need an easy manufacturer neutral name for it.

 

[profcutter]

From what I understand about the problem, it seems like making supercapacitors would solve much of the regen problem. But far smarter minds than me are working on this.

 

[JT2002TJ]

From what I understand about the problem, it seems like making supercapacitors would solve much of the regen problem. But far smarter minds than me are working on this.

Honestly I only have reduced regen when it’s winter and I don’t precondition the car. But more often, the OS applies brakes when it needs to stop faster than regen is capable of stopping the vehicle. This is usually if I am following close to the vehicle ahead of me, or someone cuts me off.

I only charge to 100% when I’m going on a long drive. So for me, it’s more of a matter of needing more stopping power than full regen can provide. So capacitors probably wouldn’t be worth the added expense/complexity.

 

[profcutter]

Is it capacity or wattage or both? I’ve charged to 100 before long drives, but by the time I’m out of my little town I’m usually at like 98 percent so it’s not a real worry. Then onto the freeway and within a 1/2 hour I’m way way down. I thought the issue was bringing a two ton vehicle down to a stop quickly Would overwhelm the charging system in the car. But I could be wrong.

 

[quagmire]

Is it capacity or wattage or both? I’ve charged to 100 before long drives, but by the time I’m out of my little town I’m usually at like 98 percent so it’s not a real worry. Then onto the freeway and within a 1/2 hour I’m way way down. I thought the issue was bringing a two ton vehicle down to a stop quickly Would overwhelm the charging system in the car. But I could be wrong.

Both.

Obviously at 100%, there is no where for the electricity to go during regen.

Then at your 98%, it becomes a wattage thing because there is only so much power the battery can take in. Tesla at full regen is charging the battery at 75-80 kw. The battery likely can't charge at that rate at 98%, so it reduces the braking capability of regen needing to blend in friction brakes for the remaining requested braking force.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Both.

Obviously at 100%, there is no where for the electricity to go during regen.

Then at your 98%, it becomes a wattage thing because there is only so much power the battery can take in. Tesla at full regen is charging the battery at 75-80 kw. The battery likely can't charge at that rate at 98%, so it reduces the braking capability of regen needing to blend in friction brakes for the remaining requested braking force.

Sounds like a design floor. When my BMW is at 100% the brakes work exactly the same. Just 99% 1 pedal driving.

 

[quagmire]

Sounds like a design floor. When my BMW is at 100% the brakes work exactly the same. Just 99% 1 pedal driving.

Same with the Tesla if you have the option turned on. It‘s still 1 pedal driving, but the car automatically applies the friction brakes. BMW may be the same or their 100% leaves a buffer to allow regen.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Same with the Tesla if you have the option turned on. It‘s still 1 pedal driving, but the car automatically applies the friction brakes. BMW may be the same or their 100% leaves a buffer to allow regen.

It leaves a buffer. That’s why they have no issue charging to 100% all the time which is what I do.

 

[diamond.g]

Same with the Tesla if you have the option turned on. It‘s still 1 pedal driving, but the car automatically applies the friction brakes. BMW may be the same or their 100% leaves a buffer to allow regen.

I think Tesla, Lucid and Rivian are the only EV makers that actually let you use the top of a pack. Everyone else has a bottom and a top buffer (which is why they use such big packs to begin with).