Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[cyb3rdud3]

Nobody asked

But it seems like you're asking - so I will give you a list - even though it's highly probable you'll simply dismiss it for one reason or other. This list of reasons why I won't buy an EV is in no particular order:

• My current car has about 120K miles on it and is perfectly functional for my purposes. It is in good repair and will last for many years, with minimal anticipated maintenance and repair costs.
• Not that I really care about the "environmental issues" at play - but I would argue that in the overall scheme of things, it is better for me to continue driving it, rather than selling it to someone else to drive AND incurring the environmental cost of the production of a new EV for me to drive.
• It has also been paid off for years and I don't want to go into debt just to buy a car.
• I don't need a new car and I'm EXTRAORDINARILY UNLIKELY to need a new car before I die.

Yet, you suggested that you did buy last year a new car, an ICE that was comparable in value. But now that isn't your car. So why bring it up, when challenged, when clearly you aren't interested in spending money on a car at all? And yes, at that end of the market, you probably can only get a Nissan Leaf or something horrible like that.

• At roughly 5,000 miles/year, I don't drive enough miles to make the "savings on gas" to be an important factor in decision-making.
• Given how much I drive, there is NO WAY I can EVER justify the cost of depreciation on a new car. This is doubly so, given how long I would drive any new car that I would buy.

Yet, you pretended that you bought a new car last year

• I could not replace my current vehicle with an EV alternative at any price even remotely close to what I would be willing to pay. The closest thing to it would probably be a Rivian, which starts at what, $70K? And then I have the cost of replacing the bumpers with steel bumpers, adding a lift kit, better tires, a winch, etc. etc. etc. While one might be able to get the cheapest EV known to man for $30K or whatever, it would not be an equivalent replacement for my Jeep.

What kind of Jeep do you have that you compare it to a Rivian? But at least here we have it, hence I asked the question earlier. You are clearly not in the target market until they have aged enough and depreciated sufficiently. That is fine, but it would be nice to compare equally

• Even if ELECTRICITY WERE FREE, I got FREE TIRES FOR LIFE and the EV had ZERO MAINTENANCE COSTS AT ALL, the break-even point (compared with gas and maintenance on my Jeep) on the cheapest new EV on the market exceeds my current life expectancy - by far.

No point in comparing an old high mileage used car to a brand new one. That equation never calculates favourably. When comparing new and new, that is a whole different story.

• Any savings in "maintenance costs" on an EV is nominal in my view, and just doesn't provide enough savings to be an important factor in decision-making. Even if it were somehow $1000/year (which is WAY more than I actually pay for maintenance on my car), it's just not enough to move the needle
• I do my own service on my vehicle. I would not feel comfortable doing service (such as brakes) on an EV, leading to costs that I would otherwise not have.

What is so different to brakes on an EV? Other than the engine everything is just the same

• I can do a LOT of repairs on my current vehicle for what a monthly payment on a new vehicle would be.

Sure, but that has nothing to do with EV or not. It would be the same for a new ICE.

• I don't want to have to remember to plug-in or un-plug my car when I get home. I have a hard enough time remembering to plug in my phone, which is why it is low on battery most of the time.

LOL That is the best feature, never having to go to a gas station. Waking up everyday with a full 'tank' whilst sleeping to fill it up with cheap electricity.

• If I did want to plug in my car at home, I'd have to run an extension cord from my front porch, through the yard, over the fence and out to the public street - and then undo that every time I wanted to unplug it and go somewhere. Seems like a pain in the ass.

Agreed, if I didn't have my own driveway I wouldn't do it. Although there are solution for that.

• I used to live in Alaska - where it is so cold that you had to plug your car in when leaving it for a long period of time, otherwise, it would be frozen and not start when you returned. On more than one occasion, I forgot to plug it in and returned to a frozen car. Even worse, I've forgot to UNPLUG and damaged car and/or the "headbolt heater unit" that it was plugged into. I can just imagine the unpleasantness of doing that with an EV.

Yikes, is it still a good idea to be on the road when you are that forgetful?

• They typically do not come with a spare tire. I will not buy ANY car that doesn't come with a spare tire. I didn't buy the Buick TourX - a vehicle I was EXTREMELY HOT FOR - for this specific reason. I went there, cash in hand, ready to buy. No spare tire? No sale.

Nothing to do with the engine, just a 'feature' of modern cars. Experiences vary naturally but the stats are with the car manufacturers as to why this isn't necessary.

• They typically come with "fancy technology" that I have no interest in and have found SO DISTRACTING that I felt unsafe driving such cars.
• I've had two bad experience with EVs. These experiences included things like the distracting technology, having to find a place to plug it in and charge it, waiting around for it to charge up, etc. Overall, I just find them to be completely unpleasant to me.

Again nothing to do with EVs, that is with all modern cars.

So there - you can start "debunking" my concerns and personal values and tell me how irrational it all is. Have at it.

You must have forgotten the earlier encounter where you indicated that you spend the money one an equal value ICE. But now you present a whole different story. There is nothing wrong with an old car that has done a lot of miles, if you are happy with it then keep it. No new car, be it an ICE or an EV will make the sums add up, and many of the arguments you've raised have to do with money not with the 'fuel' the engines take.

In the meantime - consider that, at no time - have I tried to convince anyone else that THEY should not drive an EV, or that THEY are somehow "wrong" for choosing to do so. I also fully admit that I am a usual case and that my arguments do not apply to everyone. However, I don't claim that they do, either.

 

[monstermash]

It is open to everyone, but you haven't exactly been having a conversation. You were being a bit cryptic, so it was hard to understand. We are open to people not wanting EVs, they are NOT for everyone. But if you want to have a conversation about it, it didn't seem that way from your posts...

Another dissatisfied customer. Oh well

 

[cyb3rdud3]

OK - fair enough. You got me.

But I've yet to see how that is "debunked".

Because when I asked you presented the case that you just spend $42K or there abouts on a ICE and that is clearly the territory, going rate, for the worlds best sold electric SUV that is very comparable in size. Ergo, at the going rate doesn't work.

But granted you then explained it wasn't from the perspective of that car, but of an old 120K mile experienced Jeep comparing to the price of a new one. And yes from that perspective I can understand it. One could also argue that that Honda CRV in comparison is also very expensive to the same level.

 

[monstermash]

Yet, you suggested that you did buy last year a new car, an ICE that was comparable in value. But now that isn't your car. So why bring it up, when challenged, when clearly you aren't interested in spending money on a car at all?

I guess I was pointing out that my wife didn't want an EV either.

Yet, you pretended that you bought a new car last year

Sure, OK.

What kind of Jeep do you have that you compare it to a Rivian? But at least here we have it, hence I asked the question earlier. You are clearly not in the target market until they have aged enough and depreciated sufficiently. That is fine, but it would be nice to compare equally

I have a 2007 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara. If there is something closer to that than a Rivian, which is the last thing *I* saw that was close, please specify what it is and price.

No point in comparing an old high mileage used car to a brand new one. That equation never calculates favourably. When comparing new and new, that is a whole different story.

Except that is the position I am in. No point in me using some position I am NOT in to evaluate whether I should buy an EV. I didn't claim that EVERYONE is in this position.

What is so different to brakes on an EV?

I have no idea. That's why I would be uncomfortable with it. I know they have the whole "regenerative braking" thing going on - so there must be SOMETHING different about them. Maybe there isn't. In any case, I'm not comfortable with it as it stands today.

LOL That is the best feature, never having to go to a gas station.

Most of the time when I am out driving, I am going to stop at as gas station anyway - either to get something to drink or to make a pee .

Agreed, if I didn't have my own driveway I wouldn't do it. Although there are solution for that.

Sure. I could go spend a few hundred grand on a new house and incur the transaction costs on buying a house and selling a house, plus relocation costs, all so I can stop driving my paid-for Jeep and save a few dollars on gas. I guess.

And no, the city won't let me put in a driveway, I already tried.

Yikes, is it still a good idea to be on the road when you are that forgetful?

Probably not. I let my wife drive whenever we are out together.

Nothing to do with the engine, just a 'feature' of modern cars. Experiences vary naturally but the stats are with the car manufacturers as to why this isn't necessary.

Again nothing to do with EVs, that is with all modern cars.

Sure. But I didn't claim these reasons ONLY apply to EVs. They're still reasons why I would not buy an EV. That said, in my experience, the displays in EVs are far more distracting than regular vehicles.

You must have forgotten the earlier encounter where you indicated that you spend the money one an equal value ICE. But now you present a whole different story. There is nothing wrong with an old car that has done a lot of miles, if you are happy with it then keep it. No new car, be it an ICE or an EV will make the sums add up, and many of the arguments you've raised have to do with money not with the 'fuel' the engines take.

Not sure what you may be referring to anywhere in here. But if I previously posted at some point that I would be open to an EV, then my position has changed over time.

And I agree - the prospect of buying ANY new vehicle isn't appealing to me. It's not just limited to an EV. But the thread topic is, "Who has or is planning to get an electric car". My answer is "not me". That answer would be the same if the question was "Who is planning to get ANY new car". I didn't claim that many of the reasons had to do with the power source of the vehicle.

 

[SalisburySam]

I suppose we are all different
I have always preferred cracked open windows over running AC and I currently live in coastal CA and I have my sunroof “cracked” 7-8 months of the year.
Last week I was on an extended day trip towards inland CA during a heatwave (at home the high was 85 compared to the usual mid 70) and hit 110-115, of course I use the AC under those conditions and also the climate seats… and u had to charge in that heat and it was the very first time in almost 2 years that the car reported “battery conditioning”. During the winter I do the same, usually heated seats over cabin heat.

And I prefer buttons and stalks

You mean windows on some vehicles actually can be opened? Sunroofs as well? Never knew that…nor needed to.

But yeah, buttons and stalks are necessary.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I guess I was pointing out that my wife didn't want an EV either.


Sure, OK.


I have a 2007 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara. If there is something closer to that than a Rivian, which is the last thing *I* saw that was close, please specify what it is and price.


Except that is the position I am in. No point in me using some position I am NOT in to evaluate whether I should buy an EV. I didn't claim that EVERYONE is in this position.


I have no idea. That's why I would be uncomfortable with it. I know they have the whole "regenerative braking" thing going on - so there must be SOMETHING different about them. Maybe there isn't. In any case, I'm not comfortable with it as it stands today.


Most of the time when I am out driving, I am going to stop at as gas station anyway - either to get something to drink or to make a pee .


Sure. I could go spend a few hundred grand on a new house and incur the transaction costs on buying a house and selling a house, plus relocation costs, all so I can stop driving my paid-for Jeep and save a few dollars on gas. I guess.

And no, the city won't let me put in a driveway, I already tried.


Probably not. I let my wife drive whenever we are out together.


Sure. But I didn't claim these reasons ONLY apply to EVs. They're still reasons why I would not buy an EV. That said, in my experience, the displays in EVs are far more distracting than regular vehicles.


Not sure what you may be referring to anywhere in here. But if I previously posted at some point that I would be open to an EV, then my position has changed over time.

And I agree - the prospect of buying ANY new vehicle isn't appealing to me. It's not just limited to an EV. But the thread topic is, "Who has or is planning to get an electric car". My answer is "not me". That answer would be the same if the question was "Who is planning to get ANY new car". I didn't claim that many of the reasons had to do with the power source of the vehicle.

So the main difference with regen braking is the electric motor stops you more than the brakes. So basically pads and disks generally last year longer than on an ICE car. Well unless you drive like a complete tool of course.

 

[dmr727]

So the main difference with regen braking is the electric motor stops you more than the brakes. So basically pads and disks generally last year longer than on an ICE car. Well unless you drive like a complete tool of course.

I have regen set in the middle for my i4, and I'm finally getting to the point where I'm really smooth with it. Early on I'd let off the gas (yes, I know it's no longer the gas!) too quickly and the deceleration would be startling, but I'm better about easing off the accelerator to make a smoother transition.

Of course now driving our hybrid Honda feels weird. I let off the gas and not a damned thing happens! 😂

 

[AlaskaMoose]

So basically it looks like the Americans prefer a set it and forget it approach where as the UK do not.

For example if my wife is with me she would want it different to me.

Some days I won’t have it on at all. This gives you extra range which is great in a smaller car like mine.
Sometimes I might want the sunroof open or the windows.
Another day I’ve kept my jacket in so I’m too warm with the heating on. Another day I’ve put it in the boot and am a bit chilly.

Anyway those are just some of my reasons for wanting a car with a nice big dial to turn up or down as I need.

But then in the US you are much more likely to be accustomed to climate control. In your office, your car, your home.

Over here very few houses are like that. Even in winter my house isn’t all that warm (set to 16 when we have it on) because our heating is super expensive.

I am with you on that. For example, I can set the climate control in my wife's Tacoma truck to fully automatic and on certain temperature. But while enjoy colder air at the driver's side, my wife likes warm air instead. In this case she adjusts the passenger's side temperature to her liking. Then there are times when in is very cold outdoors and we need to direct more air than normal to the windshield. Automatic climate controls are fine, but I like to have manual controls (dials and buttons) too.

I work in NYC. Driving behind a Garbage truck in the summer is not for the weakhearted. With then HEPA filter and cabin filters I don't even smell the garbage. Before I had the HEPA filter retrofitted (My TMY came out before the Biodefense mode) I would have to open the windows for a while after to clear out the stink.

If I'm behind any vehicles kicking out smoke from the exhaust, I turn on Biodefense mode (can be done using voice control) for that added positive pressure.

I left the big apple years ago. When living there I didn't notice that the air in the city has an unpleasant smell compared to the Northernmost NY regions (Plattsburgh, or even Burlington, VT) where the air smells quite clean. When flying from Alaska (where I live) to NYC I notice the smell shortly after landing.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I have regen set in the middle for my i4, and I'm finally getting to the point where I'm really smooth with it. Early on I'd let off the gas (yes, I know it's no longer the gas!) too quickly and the deceleration would be startling, but I'm better about easing off the accelerator to make a smoother transition.

Of course now driving our hybrid Honda feels weird. I let off the gas and not a damned thing happens! 😂

I rarely touch the brake. Just now and again for maintenance as you are supposed to.
There is no setting for the regen on the i3. But you quickly learn that one pedal driving is easy.

I drove a van the other week. The pedals and manual gear changes, plus the noise and the smell were grim. Felt like a work out.

In comparison I recently drove through the Hardknott pass in the Lakes.

It has a gradient of 1 in 3. Didn’t even phase my little car. In my old Golf I’d probably have had to change down to first and watch the engine temperature rise. Yes I probably used a bit more battery going up. But I charged it up all the way down!

 

[Apple fanboy]

I am with you on that. For example, I can set the climate control in my wife's Tacoma truck to fully automatic and on certain temperature. But while enjoy colder air at the driver's side, my wife likes warm air instead. In this case she adjusts the passenger's side temperature to her liking. Then there are times when in is very cold outdoors and we need to direct more air than normal to the windshield. Automatic climate controls are fine, but I like to have manual controls (dials and buttons) too.


I left the big apple years ago. When living there I didn't notice that the air in the city has an unpleasant smell compared to the Northernmost NY regions (Plattsburgh, or even Burlington, VT) where the air smells quite clean. When flying from Alaska (where I live) to NYC I notice the smell shortly after landing.

I can be in shorts and a t shirt and Mrs AFB can be in a coat and winter hat.

We mostly use the heated seats and reserve the blowers for the screen when needed. But with the blowers clearing it before I get in, not using them that much.

 

[adrianlondon]

I've not noticed any issues driving behind one, but I have a question re regen breaking.

At what point do the brake lights come on?

 

[Apple fanboy]

I've not noticed any issues driving behind one, but I have a question re regen breaking.

At what point do the brake lights come on?

Like any normal car. When it slows down. If you never use your brake pedal they come on as if you were. That’s why you have never noticed an issue. Clever stuff.

 

[adrianlondon]

Like any normal car. When it slows down.

Hmm. A "normal" car isn't that smart. The lights come on when the brake pedal is pressed.

Not only is it possible to lightly tap that pedal without slowing down, but slamming a car into a low gear and/or pulling on the handbrake to slow down will not activate the brake lights.

The EV "clever stuff" fixes all those (rare, admittedly) issues. I assume it has to slow down by a set rate - no doubt defined in some regulation or other.

Many people here in Europe (looks at my brother as prime example) much prefer manual cars. Personally, I don't see why one should waste time with three pedals when there's an option to just have two. And now there's an option to mainly get by with one. Perfect!

I've gone through phases (of my recent years of non car ownership). If I never need one I planned to buy a "normal" car but automatic. Then I decided a hybrid after having hired one and discovered how economical it was and quiet in city driving. Now, my next car will be an EV. Assuming I actually buy one again.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Hmm. A "normal" car isn't that smart. The lights come on when the brake pedal is pressed.

Not only is it possible to lightly tap that pedal without slowing down, but slamming a car into a low gear and/or pulling on the handbrake to slow down will not activate the brake lights.

The EV "clever stuff" fixes all those (rare, admittedly) issues. I assume it has to slow down by a set rate - no doubt defined in some regulation or other.

Many people here in Europe (looks at my brother as prime example) much prefer manual cars. Personally, I don't see why one should waste time with three pedals when there's an option to just have two. And now there's an option to mainly get by with one. Perfect!

I've gone through phases (of my recent years of non car ownership). If I never need one I planned to buy a "normal" car but automatic. Then I decided a hybrid after having hired one and discovered how economical it was and quiet in city driving. Now, my next car will be an EV. Assuming I actually buy one again.

I can only speak from my experience with owning two Teslas. Teslas do not engage the brake lights until there is a certain amount of stoping force (lets say when you exceed some number of G’s). Teslas have a very very strong regen, and you cannot turn it off or down anymore, so you are always pressing the accelerator. If you want to slow down, you press less, if you want to maintain speed, you keep the current level of accelerator. You can easily slow down like one would coast a non-regen vehicle without engaging the brake lights.

Now, I do drive behind a lot of Teslas, they are everywhere in the NYC area, I can tell when a driver hasn’t mastered OPD (One Pedal Driving) on their Tesla. They basically completely let off the accelerator anytime they need to reduce speed rather than feathering the pedal. This almost immediately engages the brake lights and gives the illusion of someone two foot driving a non-regen vehicle without allowing the vehicle to coast. This is REALLY annoying in the NYC area where you can be driving 60+ mph with very little gap.

I rarely have to touch the brake pedal (other than for shifting gears). There are weeks where I can drive 3 hours a day and never use the brakes. Regen and OPD are AWESOME, I love it and never want to go back.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Our electricity company is doing free electricity hours. So just topped my car up to 100%. Got to love those free miles!

 

[AlaskaMoose]

I can be in shorts and a t shirt and Mrs AFB can be in a coat and winter hat.

We mostly use the heated seats and reserve the blowers for the screen when needed. But with the blowers clearing it before I get in, not using them that much.

🤣 My wife does the same. Also her feet and hands are abnormally cold. Now and then she sneaks behind me and touches my neck with her cold fingers, and then starts laughing when I flinch.

 

[GrayFlannel]

Should Tesla be forced to open their supercharger network to rivals?

 

[Tagbert]

Should Tesla be forced to open their supercharger network to rivals?

They are already doing so. Ford owners can do so now with an adaptor. Hyundai will ship its 2025 models with the J3400 plug and Tesla network access in the next couple of months.

 

[GrayFlannel]

They are already doing so. Ford owners can do so now with an adaptor. Hyundai will ship its 2025 models with the J3400 plug and Tesla network access in the next couple of months.

They seem to be slow walking it. Do you think they should be encouraged?

 

[russell_314]

They seem to be slow walking it. Do you think they should be encouraged?

Why do you think they are slow walking it? I’ve never heard this before. It could be the car manufacturers need to do something to make their cars compatible but not exactly sure. Maybe some car manufacturers don’t want their cars on the Tesla network? Are you saying we should have governments mandate it has to be done? Talk about slow walking. It wouldn’t happen till 2035 if they were in charge. In the US our government is spending billions of dollars building EV chargers, but I don’t think with much success. The funny thing is they are building them with out of date CCS connectors so in a few years we’ll probably have to spend a few more billion fixing it.

 

[jz0309]

Why do you think they are slow walking it? I’ve never heard this before. It could be the car manufacturers need to do something to make their cars compatible but not exactly sure. Maybe some car manufacturers don’t want their cars on the Tesla network? Are you saying we should have governments mandate it has to be done? Talk about slow walking. It wouldn’t happen till 2035 if they were in charge. In the US our government is spending billions of dollars building EV chargers, but I don’t think with much success. The funny thing is they are building them with out of date CCS connectors so in a few years we’ll probably have to spend a few more billion fixing it.

The chargers being built right now are mostly the 350kW capable ones, and while they might have a CCS one right now, it’s called an adapter. Just like current Ford and Rivian use on the Tesla SUC.
And some of Teslas new SUCs will have the “magic dock” which is a CCS one.
It’s all coming together, sure could be faster but it is what it is for now.
And, I think all manufacturers in the US market have committed to use the Tesla NACS or J3400…

 

[GrayFlannel]

Why do you think they are slow walking it?

It’s been more than a year since Tesla agreed to open them up yet only 100 of 2500 sites have adapters. Perhaps Tesla‘s slow progress is deliberate to avoid irritating Tesla owners or out of fear of hurting their sales.

 

[russell_314]

The chargers being built right now are mostly the 350kW capable ones, and while they might have a CCS one right now, it’s called an adapter. Just like current Ford and Rivian use on the Tesla SUC.
And some of Teslas new SUCs will have the “magic dock” which is a CCS one.
It’s all coming together, sure could be faster but it is what it is for now.
And, I think all manufacturers in the US market have committed to use the Tesla NACS or J3400…

I just don’t see the point of building new infrastructure using an outdated specification. I don’t understand why Rivian or Ford is doing it with a 2025 models. I personally wouldn’t buy one until they changed it. Yes I know you can use an adapter, but you shouldn’t have to. There’s no reason to be still using this old specification for new things. Progress needs to happen.

It’s been more than a year since Tesla agreed to open them up yet only 100 of 2500 sites have adapters. Perhaps Tesla‘s slow progress is deliberate to avoid irritating Tesla owners or out of fear of hurting their sales.

Does it only work with the sites that have adapters? I don’t have a vehicle with a CCS port, but I’m assuming you can bring your own right? I think it’s nice that Tesla installs the adapter, but I don’t think that should be requirement as long as they are making the charger functional. From my understanding, the biggest problem is the shorter cord.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Should Tesla be forced to open their supercharger network to rivals?

In Europe they've been opening it up for the last 2 years. Tesla is an energy company first, car manufacturers second in my opinion. At the moment their network is the cheapest electricity when public charging. Many third party charge cards for discount and subscriptions support them as well.

It is entirely normal here, but then again we all use the same standard anyway.

 

[russell_314]

In Europe they've been opening it up for the last 2 years. Tesla is an energy company first, car manufacturers second in my opinion. At the moment their network is the cheapest electricity when public charging. Many third party charge cards for discount and subscriptions support them as well.

It is entirely normal here, but then again we all use the same standard anyway.

I hear it’s popular in Europe due to the price. I’m always watching this YouTube channel with a British guy talking about it. The only complaint I’ve heard is people with newer EV’s that have an 800 V architecture charge slower on Tesla 400 V chargers. Of course this isn’t a European thing but just a newer EV thing.