Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[Tagbert]

It’s been more than a year since Tesla agreed to open them up yet only 100 of 2500 sites have adapters. Perhaps Tesla‘s slow progress is deliberate to avoid irritating Tesla owners or out of fear of hurting their sales.

It might also have been slowed when Elon laid off the whole SuperCharger team.

Overall, a year doesn’t seem that slow for the car manufacturers to switch. They need to source new J3400 plugs and integrate them into their vehicles charging system and test them. Even the adaptors have taken a while for manufacturers design and build.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I hear it’s popular in Europe due to the price. I’m always watching this YouTube channel with a British guy talking about it. The only complaint I’ve heard is people with newer EV’s that have an 800 V architecture charge slower on Tesla 400 V chargers. Of course this isn’t a European thing but just a newer EV thing.

Yup, very true. Tesla's haven't been the fastest charging for a long time, not in peak, and definitely not when looking at the charging curve. Cables are also a bit short. I still prefer to go to Ionity or Fastned when we need public charging, but Tesla is cheaper.

 

[JT2002TJ]

It’s been more than a year since Tesla agreed to open them up yet only 100 of 2500 sites have adapters. Perhaps Tesla‘s slow progress is deliberate to avoid irritating Tesla owners or out of fear of hurting their sales.

You are mixing things up. You are talking about MagicDoc, which are Superchargers that have both NACS AND CCS adapters built in... This has nothing to do with the now opened up Supercharging network, other than 100 sites do not require an adapter to be self-provided.

v3 superchargers and up speak "CCS" the required language needed for charging non-Teslas. Any v3 and up Supercharger will work with Rivian, Ford, and there have been reports of a couple GM test vehicles. You also have to remember that Teslas didn't always speak CCS. My 2019 TM3 did not speak CCS, my 2021 TMY does. I had my 2019 retrofitted. I'm still willing to bet that majority of all US based Teslas do not speak CCS (considering TMS from 2012 - sometime in the 2020's didn't come from the factory CCS enabled). So, this is a MAJOR undertaking to open the charging network to something that wasn't actually built into the original design.

There are 2 things that are needed for non-MagicDock stations.

1. The vehicle manufacturer needs to develop software that will communicate with Tesla (this allows for contactless payment directly with your card on file with your vehicle's manufacturer).

2. an adapter (until you have a non-tesla with built in NACS) which are provided by Tesla to the vehicle manufacturer. There also are 3rd party adapters (up to you, if you trust it, but you do risk voiding your warranty and getting sued in the event of a fire/problem).

Now, my thoughts. Tesla spent 10+ year developing the Supercharging network, they do the best job of maintaining their chargers, but it costs money and time to replace chargers. They are a private company, they did take Government money to open their network, which I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the MagicDock stations already have met the opening up mandate.

I hear no complaints of Rivian/Ford not changing their vehicles design to have a built in NACS port. If they did, they wouldn't need an adapter, and they wouldn't have to wait for Tesla to produce them... They have had the same year you mentioned, yet, there are no current vehicles they produce for sale with the NACS port built in.

Most of these chargers that are available to non-Tesla vehicles that have partnered with Tesla or are MagicDock which are open to anyone (I believe the 100 sites you talk about are MagicDock)

Tesla SuperCharging Network Map

If you click on the site you will see if they are open or not:

NACS Adapter Required to Charge at this Supercharger. This Supercharger is Open to Tesla and NACS Enabled Vehicles with CCS Compatibility.

You also should remember that Tesla doesn't only have 1 charger at each site. Tesla does a great job of putting in as many chargers at each site as they can. When you see other CCS L3 charging sites, many of them or 1 or 2 only.

 

[JT2002TJ]

It might also have been slowed when Elon laid off the whole SuperCharger team.

Overall, a year doesn’t seem that slow for the car manufacturers to switch. They need to source new J3400 plugs and integrate them into their vehicles charging system and test them. Even the adaptors have taken a while for manufacturers design and build.

My understanding was this was the development team... Not the manufacturing team, nor the service teams. v3 and v4 Superchargers have been designed and that job is done. They have not slowed down (at least significantly) new installations or conversions from pre-v3 stations to v3+. But I could be wrong.

I also agree that a year isn't long. It also hasn't even been a year, it was a year since announcments. Rivian and Ford didm't have things ready to go either. It's a major undertaking.

It isn't Tesla's fault that other charging networks in the US are terrible... They didn't really take it seriously, and now, people are blaming Tesla for not making things easier, instead of the lack of reliability and availability of non-Tesla L3 chargers. Other vehicle manufacturers could have developed their own network...

 

[Apple fanboy]

You are mixing things up. You are talking about MagicDoc, which are Superchargers that have both NACS AND CCS adapters built in... This has nothing to do with the now opened up Supercharging network, other than 100 sites do not require an adapter to be self-provided.

v3 superchargers and up speak "CCS" the required language needed for charging non-Teslas. Any v3 and up Supercharger will work with Rivian, Ford, and there have been reports of a couple GM test vehicles. You also have to remember that Teslas didn't always speak CCS. My 2019 TM3 did not speak CCS, my 2021 TMY does. I had my 2019 retrofitted. I'm still willing to bet that majority of all US based Teslas do not speak CCS (considering TMS from 2012 - sometime in the 2020's didn't come from the factory CCS enabled). So, this is a MAJOR undertaking to open the charging network to something that wasn't actually built into the original design.

There are 2 things that are needed for non-MagicDock stations.

1. The vehicle manufacturer needs to develop software that will communicate with Tesla (this allows for contactless payment directly with your card on file with your vehicle's manufacturer).

2. an adapter (until you have a non-tesla with built in NACS) which are provided by Tesla to the vehicle manufacturer. There also are 3rd party adapters (up to you, if you trust it, but you do risk voiding your warranty and getting sued in the event of a fire/problem).

Now, my thoughts. Tesla spent 10+ year developing the Supercharging network, they do the best job of maintaining their chargers, but it costs money and time to replace chargers. They are a private company, they did take Government money to open their network, which I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the MagicDock stations already have met the opening up mandate.

I hear no complaints of Rivian/Ford not changing their vehicles design to have a built in NACS port. If they did, they wouldn't need an adapter, and they wouldn't have to wait for Tesla to produce them... They have had the same year you mentioned, yet, there are no current vehicles they produce for sale with the NACS port built in.

Most of these chargers that are available to non-Tesla vehicles that have partnered with Tesla or are MagicDock which are open to anyone (I believe the 100 sites you talk about are MagicDock)

Tesla SuperCharging Network Map

View attachment 2418935


If you click on the site you will see if they are open or not:


You also should remember that Tesla doesn't only have 1 charger at each site. Tesla does a great job of putting in as many chargers at each site as they can. When you see other CCS L3 charging sites, many of them or 1 or 2 only.

In Europe on the Tesla supercharger opened up for other car manufacturers, they just have a contactless panel for payment. Most EV’s don’t have a payment card connected with the car.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

My understanding was this was the development team... Not the manufacturing team, nor the service teams. v3 and v4 Superchargers have been designed and that job is done. They have not slowed down (at least significantly) new installations or conversions from pre-v3 stations to v3+. But I could be wrong.

I also agree that a year isn't long. It also hasn't even been a year, it was a year since announcments. Rivian and Ford didm't have things ready to go either. It's a major undertaking.

It isn't Tesla's fault that other charging networks in the US are terrible... They didn't really take it seriously, and now, people are blaming Tesla for not making things easier, instead of the lack of reliability and availability of non-Tesla L3 chargers. Other vehicle manufacturers could have developed their own network...

I'd argue that it isn't the vehicle manufacturers job, this is really something for government policy to stimulate this. In Europe you see a healthy market with multiple players and a concerted pan-european strategy. I'd leave energy to the energy companies. It is nice to see how existing forecourts of petrol stations have changed to accomodate charging of vehicles in similar fashion.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

In Europe on the Tesla supercharger opened up for other car manufacturers, they just have a contactless panel for payment. Most EV’s don’t have a payment card connected with the car.

Well, yes there is just contactless payments with a card (apple pay, google pay), but more an more the CCS2 standard allows for plug and charge. The Plug & Charge is an automated communication and billing process without the need for external identification like RFID cards, or debit/credit cards, or charging apps. There is actually an ISO standard for it 15118.

There are quite a few cars available that support plug and charge, not least the Geely stable.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I'd argue that it isn't the vehicle manufacturers job, this is really something for government policy to stimulate this. In Europe you see a healthy market with multiple players and a concerted pan-european strategy. I'd leave energy to the energy companies. It is nice to see how existing forecourts of petrol stations have changed to accomodate charging of vehicles in similar fashion.

We have a government that is by design the slowest moving thing on earth. With 2 sides, each side actively fights to prevent the other from having success with any projects/bills. It will not be a Government thing here. The way things work here are private companies develop and sell, the government regulates after a company has gone too far, call it ship correction.

It is either a vehicle manufacturer thing or an energy sector thing (like you said, this sector is also private here). If there is money, it will come. This is why Tesla is here today. When there are incentives, private companies take advantage, when there isn't they have to find a way.

In the end, the reason the world is where it is with EVs (including Europe) is in a large part because of the US Supercharging network. Without the Supercharging network that Tesla produced, you wouldn't have Tesla sales, without Tesla sales the world would likely still be using city car EVs (short range, small for parking). To make it out to the suburbs we needed not only a longer-range vehicle, but we needed the SC network to encourage people to buy them.

It is an advantage for a vehicle manufacturer to develop and produce (be it in-house, subcontracted out, or partner with) a charging network so that their customers will buy their cars. Ford/GM/BWM they all had the money and opted to let someone else do it. VAG was forced into it as their slap on the wrist, and halfa$$ed it...

If it wasn't for the SC network, I would not have transitioned to a full EV household. I knew if I needed to, I could drive from NY to FL/TN/TX without any issue, other than time. I didn't realize how little I would rely on it, because I have L2 home charging, but that safety net is what it took. I also would not have made the jump to full EV, if my range was only 100 or less miles.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Well, yes there is just contactless payments with a card (apple pay, google pay), but more an more the CCS2 standard allows for plug and charge. The Plug & Charge is an automated communication and billing process without the need for external identification like RFID cards, or debit/credit cards, or charging apps. There is actually an ISO standard for it 15118.

There are quite a few cars available that support plug and charge, not least the Geely stable.

This is VERY important here in the US. We have a LOT of cell phone drop zones across the country (different apps needed for payments). We also live in a place where customers have seen how Tesla did it, plug 'n play. We have seen how well it can work. Get out car, walk over plug vehicle in and continue on with restroom/food/Netflix.

This is the way it should be. I am hoping that as the partnerships expand, other charging networks will figure out a way to do plug & charge using the vehicle manufacturer's API. I prefer to not have a card on file with all these different companies, I would like it to be with my vehicles' manufacture only. Wherever I stop, I should be able to plug in and not figure out a payment.

 

[GrayFlannel]

You are mixing things up.

I’ve mixed up nothing.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I’ve mixed up nothing.

Your quote:

It’s been more than a year since Tesla agreed to open them up yet only 100 of 2500 sites have adapters. Perhaps Tesla‘s slow progress is deliberate to avoid irritating Tesla owners or out of fear of hurting their sales.

Sites having adapters has nothing to do with the total number of sites open to non-Teslas. There are TONS of SC open to non-Teslas. Tesla agreed to open up sites to specific manufactures through deals. They are open, and they are all over.

You said 100 of 2500 sites have built in adapters, this number will probably not change, Magicdock stations where there to meet a government agreement for funds, they met this requirement. There is no more agreed role out of these. Anymore, is entirely up to Tesla if they want to.

There is no slow progress, as I said, tons of sites are open to manufactures that have an agreement in place with Tesla. Others have not made a deal yet or are in talks to make deals.

These are 2 different things that you have grouped together. Magicdocks and Manufacturer agreed rollouts.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

This is VERY important here in the US. We have a LOT of cell phone drop zones across the country (different apps needed for payments). We also live in a place where customers have seen how Tesla did it, plug 'n play. We have seen how well it can work. Get out car, walk over plug vehicle in and continue on with restroom/food/Netflix.

This is the way it should be. I am hoping that as the partnerships expand, other charging networks will figure out a way to do plug & charge using the vehicle manufacturer's API. I prefer to not have a card on file with all these different companies, I would like it to be with my vehicles' manufacture only. Wherever I stop, I should be able to plug in and not figure out a payment.

There is already an ISO standard for it So they don't need to figure out ways, but knowing the USA a little I won't hold my breath to devise another standard or go with a proprietary solution by Elon Musk 😂

 

[GrayFlannel]

Your quote:


Sites having adapters has nothing to do with the total number of sites open to non-Teslas. There are TONS of SC open to non-Teslas. Tesla agreed to open up sites to specific manufactures through deals. They are open, and they are all over.

You said 100 of 2500 sites have built in adapters, this number will probably not change, Magicdock stations where there to meet a government agreement for funds, they met this requirement. There is no more agreed role out of these. Anymore, is entirely up to Tesla if they want to.

There is no slow progress, as I said, tons of sites are open to manufactures that have an agreement in place with Tesla. Others have not made a deal yet or are in talks to make deals.

These are 2 different things that you have grouped together. Magicdocks and Manufacturer agreed rollouts.

I acknowledged Tesla is opening up sites but doing it slowly. That isn’t merely my observation but that of the New York Times and The Wall Street Journal.

 

[diamond.g]

I acknowledged Tesla is opening up sites but doing it slowly. That isn’t merely my observation but that of the New York Times and The Wall Street Journal.

I don't think it is a site/location issue. It is more an adapter/manufacturer issue. Once a brands vehicle is able to charge, they can pretty much charge anywhere a V3 stall is. Switching vehicle plugs to NACS is ideal cause no adapter would be needed. So far only Hyundai has shown a physical vehicle with the "new" port.

 

[Reverend Benny]

This one seem to get great reviews...looks like great fun.
If it only came with a proper handbrake leaver :-D

 

[JT2002TJ]

I don't think it is a site/location issue. It is more an adapter/manufacturer issue. Once a brands vehicle is able to charge, they can pretty much charge anywhere a V3 stall is. Switching vehicle plugs to NACS is ideal cause no adapter would be needed. So far only Hyundai has shown a physical vehicle with the "new" port.

Rivian has shown one on pre-release of one of their new models as well. But Rivian and Ford should have dropped everything and made the switch.

They have to come up with the switch to allow AC and DC using the same plug. But this should have been something solved immediately once it opened up.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I acknowledged Tesla is opening up sites but doing it slowly. That isn’t merely my observation but that of the New York Times and The Wall Street Journal.

The sites ARE open, all v3 or the few v4... If you have a Ford/Rivian you can go to all the sites I showed you in that image. You can drive your vehicle up, plug it in and charging starts as your vehicle interfaces with Tesla and Ford/Rivian.

Or do you mean slowly rolling out to additional manufactures (which would contradict what you typed about opening up sites)? If so, I still don't know if your statement is true. It can be the other manufactures are slowly implementing the standards, reaching agreements. We don't know. But that is different than opening up sites...

And don't go by news articles in the EV space, they are often wrong.

 

[JT2002TJ]

There is already an ISO standard for it So they don't need to figure out ways, but knowing the USA a little I won't hold my breath to devise another standard or go with a proprietary solution by Elon Musk 😂

Yeah, I really meant figure out how to implement it into their chargers and include the NACS plug. There are 3rd party chargers now with NACS (I haven't personally seen any, but they are talked about).

 

[jz0309]

Rivian has shown one on pre-release of one of their new models as well. But Rivian and Ford should have dropped everything and made the switch.

They have to come up with the switch to allow AC and DC using the same plug. But this should have been something solved immediately once it opened up.

Well, auto manufacturers make updates maybe mid-model lifespan, that’s all, never seen it done “on demand” when some tech becomes available.
Besides, if your car has a CCS, you need an adapter to charge at Tesla, if your car has a NACS, you need an adapter to charge at a CCS station.
Adapters will be needed for the next decade…

 

[GrayFlannel]

And don't go by news articles in the EV space, they are often wrong.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Well, auto manufacturers make updates maybe mid-model lifespan, that’s all, never seen it done “on demand” when some tech becomes available.
Besides, if your car has a CCS, you need an adapter to charge at Tesla, if your car has a NACS, you need an adapter to charge at a CCS station.
Adapters will be needed for the next decade…

In the US. Here in Europe we have one standard apart from a few chadamo legacy cars around. Makes it so much easier that what you guys have to deal with.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Well, auto manufacturers make updates maybe mid-model lifespan, that’s all, never seen it done “on demand” when some tech becomes available.
Besides, if your car has a CCS, you need an adapter to charge at Tesla, if your car has a NACS, you need an adapter to charge at a CCS station.
Adapters will be needed for the next decade…

For better or for worse, Tesla does revisions at any point they determine they should. The good is they don't have to wait and continue making something they don't want to. The bad is, it makes it more difficult to determine parts for your vehicle.

True about adapters, but in most major cities across the US, you don't really need CCS 1 adapters, there are plenty of NACS SC around. So, if you had to pick one, you would be better off needing an adapter to charge at a CCS 1 station. It is an advantage to having both, I have CCS adapters (never used) in both my TM3/Y. I'm not sure I even opened the plastic seal.

 

[JT2002TJ]

In the US. Here in Europe we have one standard apart from a few chadamo legacy cars around. Makes it so much easier that what you guys have to deal with.

It is nice, and you are more likely to have private business jump into the development since they know their chargers aren't going to have to change.

Now non-Tesla chargers either have to find a way to have both (added cost and complexity) or switch to NACS.

 

[hobowankenobi]

It’s been more than a year since Tesla agreed to open them up yet only 100 of 2500 sites have adapters. Perhaps Tesla‘s slow progress is deliberate to avoid irritating Tesla owners or out of fear of hurting their sales.

The opposite of this, actually. All the other manufacturers are slow to change plugs and/or implement what is needed for billing. Not on Telsa at all.

 

[hobowankenobi]

Back to cars. Just sold my 2018 Model 3 mid-range with 100K miles on it. Only paid service:

12V batter replacement. Done at my house by Tesla mobile tech...$112 parts and labor.

No brakes. No fluid changes. No anything else besides tires, wiper blades, wiper fluid, and cabin air filters for 6 years and 100K miles. Most reliable and funest car I ever had, except for a 1973-1/2 Porsche 911 (Fun? Hell yes!..Reliable? Not so much).

What did I replace it with you ask? 2024 Model 3 long-range. After federal incentive and referral discount, $34,130 + tax and DMV.

20224 is better in every way so far. So many small but noticeable improvements. Hopeful to smile through the next 100K miles and beyond.