Tesla didn't make a track car. They made a super-efficient fast daily driver. And did it for <$50k (<$56k if you don't qualify for the $7,500 credit). If you want a track car, get a track car...
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Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk
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Tesla didn't make a track car. They made a super-efficient fast daily driver. And did it for <$50k (<$56k if you don't qualify for the $7,500 credit). If you want a track car, get a track car...
Suposedly the brakes didn’t actually fade until much later on the track. By then the tires had also given up. Tesla should remove the brake warning when i track mode (otherwise what is the point of the display that gives you better information).
Camaro can be a daily driver, same with Mustang, Golf GTI, Civic Type R, etc. All daily drivers that are performance vehicles equipped with the proper suspension, brakes, and cooling to handle that performance.
What Tesla has done is make something that impresses the masses that is used to 0-60 times measured in years, but can only be done once or twice before it gives up and can't do it anymore.
Nah, Tesla screwed up by talking about track performance on the web site, so folks are rightfully calling them out on it.
Same - love my Ford EV.
Had the '22 Lightning Lariat for a year and found out it doesn't fit my current lifestyle, garage, and difficult to drive in urban Los Angeles.
Traded her in (made money on the trade), and got a '23 Mach E which was was ordered 14 months prior.
Love my Mach E - no problems since day 1.
20,000 miles later - only needed tire rotation.
Very low cost of ownership.
Tesla Supercharger access has really changed my mind of keeping her...
True, but the message popped up saying braking performance was reduced to keep temps down after turn 3 is still pathetic and then became totally sketchy by the end of lap 1 still proves my point.
Tesla sets up the cars for a hero lap, but that is it. It isn't sustainable because after one lap, the battery overheats, brakes overheats, or the suspension lets it down.
You missed efficient... The TM3 and TMY where made with efficiency as the number 1. The performance models you listed are all terrible with efficiency. The TM3 is the all-around king of EV efficiency. There is a performance model, because that is what enough Tesla buyers what to make it worth it to produce. I don't think anyone is saying EVs are the king of the tracks.
EV;s 0-60's are unmatched, which drag strips have been a big part of the racing community for ICE from day 1. All of a sudden, EV's show up and the goal posts are now that drag strips aren't important...
I am willing to bet a TM3P will outperform, on a daily basis, any car you listed. Yes, you are right, that 1% where you are on the track there are better options. But there is no better option for a DD that sees some track time...
There isn't goal post moving. There always have been a different segments to the car fanbase in what they like. People love just straight line and that is why the Charger's and Challengers appealed to them. Some like tracking, etc.
My whole point isn't drag strips vs track. It's that Tesla's and EV's in general can only do their max output for a short while before something gives up. Whether it is cooling, brakes, battery, etc. Since Tesla wanted to say how great the M3P's track performance is, it is fair game to call them out on their BS.
Again same issue with the Model S Plaid.
You don't give a car 1000 HP and give it brakes that can't handle it.
The goal post moving is you trying to throw efficiency in the argument. I am talking about getting the car enthusiasts to buy off on EV's.
There isn't anything inherent to EV's that say EV's have to suck as performance vehicles. But again outside of a few, all the EV makers that want to say they made a great performance vehicle, they all fall flat once that hero lap or hero drag strip run is complete because they are not equipped to be able to sustain that performance. Thus the continued criticism thrown at EV's by car enthusiasts.
Remember I own and love a Model 3 Long Range. I am not anti-EV. I am simply pointing out BS and frustration that there isn't performance EV's that can sustain their performance or EV's that can handle a track.
Enjoy. I bet the battery lasts for years. What’s the battery warranty? 8 or 10 years. I think all but some very early EV’s have had batteries that will outlast most engines.
If I was rich enough to buy a track day car, I’d get a petrol engine one.
Cars are tools. You can’t expect your hammer to make a good screwdriver.
So why would your track car make a good daily driver (or the other way round).
Horses for courses.
Cars are tools. You can’t expect your hammer to make a good screwdriver.
So why would your track car make a good daily driver (or the other way round).
Horses for courses.
Yet there are plenty of daily drivers that are capable of track duty on the side.
I am not expecting Model 3's to be out there hanging with Ferrari's. There are naturally compromises made when taking a daily driver vehicle and making a performance variant. But there are plenty of ICE vehicles that are daily drivers that are capable of going on a track day. Civic Type R and Golf GTI being obvious ones. The main difference between the Type R/GTI and Model 3 Performance is the fact the Civic and Golf can do that track day sustainably. They have the equipment to keep the engine and transmission cool, the brakes are capable and made for tracking, the suspension can handle the mass, etc. The Model 3 Performance certainly has more power compared to both, but by lap 2 will be lucky the brakes can still stop the vehicle. Or the motors or battery isn't overheating. The Type R/GTI aren't the best track vehicles compared to the more dedicated sports cars. But they are not total POS's like the Model 3 Performance is.
There is zero reason why an EV can't be setup the same way, especially their performance variants.
I’m not saying it can’t be done, but for me they are two different tools. I want my EV to be as efficient as possible. I’d want a track car to be as fun as possible. These are fundamental not going to be one vehicle without compromising one way or the other.
And that is fine. Just like there are fuel efficient ICE vehicles that focus on fuel efficiency, etc and I know don't belong on the track. I am not here bashing those type of vehicles.
My point of contention is you have EV makers make performance variants of these cars, brag about how the brakes are upgraded for track duty, give the car track mode, etc saying it is track capable. And yet it isn't. And that is what Tesla has done with their performance variants. That is what I am calling out. They can only do their amazing performance for 1 drag run or 1 lap on the track. After that they fall apart.
Notice how I am not calling out the Long Range variants. Or non-performance variants of other EV's.
I think all EVs suffer from a lot of added weight over their ICE (semi) equivalents, so that will make the braking issues hard to overcome for now. I suspect at some point batteries will become lighter and this will be easier to address.
There are plenty of ICE vehicles that weigh more than the EV performance vehicles that have the brakes to handle the weight.
There are plenty of ICE vehicles that have the suspension to handle their heavier weights.
There is zero excuses for giving a car small brakes or crap suspension, but then say it can do track work.
That’s certainly a factor for performance. But bigger brakes for example weigh more. So how many people want a performance EV that has less range than it’s standard variant.
I think that’s why Formula E have short races. Big batteries compromise performance on track.
It’s certainly a strange marketing strategy. I mean why even try? The track day numbers must be insignificant compared to other customer groups.
Performance ICE vehicles have less range than their normal variants because of added weight and less efficient engine’s( but same size fuel tank).
We are still in the early stages for EVs, and I agree, we lack options. The US mfgs are offering what they think gives them most profit: high-end SUVs, trucks. They seemingly are all struggling making money and they are not going to invest into. Ew models for a niche market (yes, imho the cars you’re talking about are a niche).
Give it a few more years with better EV adoption and you’ll get more options.
I think those tend to be larger cars though.
What I am referring to is with roughly equivalent cars, the EV has a big disadvantage in braking due to battery weight.
I'l compare two cars I am familiar with.
1. BMW M440i 386 HP and 3736 lbs.
2. BMW i4 xDrive40 396 HP and 5048 lbs.
Same cars with EV vs. ICE propulsion. You can see how the EV has over a 1,000 deficit to bring to a stop at the track.
I don't disagree with your comment that manufacturers should not brag about "tracking" a car if it trips all over it self after a few laps. I was just pointing out my thinking on what makes it rough to design an EV for track use.
Yes. But nobody buys an ICE vehicle based on range. But everyone who looks at an EV it’s the first thing they check.
Yep.... exactly. Then bigger brakes need bigger wheels to clear the brakes, which adds even more weight.
Technically my BMW i3s is the performance variant of the standard i3. It has bigger 21” wheels that are wider too. It does have a slightly lower range because of that. But the brakes are the same and rarely used.
Then they need to change how they advertise these performance variants. Stop saying they are track capable, etc.
So far only the Plaid borders on unsafe given how much power it has and how much under braked it is.
Everything else is the brakes just can't stand up over time.
I am not saying EV's aren't heavier. But they need to be equipped with brakes that can handle it. The BMW M3 has much better brakes and only weighs 100 lb. less than the Model 3 Performance and the BMW's brakes can stand up to track duty.
On the street maybe, but if BMW says it is track capable, you will be using the brakes more on the track as regen creates heat for both the motor and battery. People usually turn down/turn it off when tracking their EV's to manage the temps of the motor and battery better. Thus relying on the friction brakes more.
Unless BMW have that model much beefier cooling to manage the heat that regen on the track will create.
Well I'm not so sure I agree with that as a blanket statement. In net travel time, yes sure. But when you calculate in the total journey (getting to the airport, parking up, bus to the departures building, bus/train to the plane, and then all in reverse at the destination), plus then add in the inconveniences (shoes off, belts offs, laptops out, liquids not allow, delays, waiting, queue, the bull run to get your already allocated seats, people watching videos on their smartphones without headphones, BO from the big fat man's not hot in his northface coat sitting to the left, and the bulge hanging over the seat from the woman to the right, waiting for luggage, hire car queues, screaming babies)...Nope the total travel time isn't that different, and the convience is at at a different planet.
Well unless one can travel Virgin Upperclass and don't have to deal with all of that
