LOL Our old BMW M2C is way, way, way better than that. Except for the 0-60 time. And costs less when we bought ours. The aforementioned VW Golf R (which I also had as a MK7) as well, price difference alone will buy a lot of fuel.
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Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk
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Unless they have the performance versions. When you look at Polestar, the Performance Pack comes with bigger brembo brakes and bigger forged wheels, and more complex but adjustable Olin suspension. However the unsprung weight is actually less than the smalled wheel/brake version they do.
I agree if they are advertised that way. I think for most of us, the larger brakes and added weight are more a negative than a positive in an EV though.
The BMW M3 is a bit of a different animal designed from the ground up (at great expense) to be run at the track. I doubt many Model 3 owners would want to pony up for the cross-drilled carbon-ceramic disc brakes the BMW M3 runs.
I'm with you... but like the BMW M3 example I mentioned above there is a pretty steep price premium for those brake setups. I don't think the average Model 3 owner would be up for it.
BMW M3 is designed from the normal 3 series. Just like the Model 3 Performance is designed from the normal Model 3.
It isn't a ground up car designed from scratch sitting on its own architecture.
Yes, but a normal 3 series is designed for sport and a Model 3 is designed for efficiency...
I don't want to get off in the weeds with you over this, but although the M3 is based on the bones of the 3-series, just about every moving part related to suspension, brakes, and drive train is unique to the M3 and designed for performance/track use. The suspension, for example, is not just stiffer shocks and springs, the entire M3 front and rear suspension is unique to the M3.
Civic is designed for efficiency and Civic Type R for sport.....
This whole thing would be moot if EV makers were more honest, ESPECIALLY Tesla. Don't say how track capable your car is when in reality, it can't do the track.
Because there are/were tons of ICE vehicles whose underlying architecture wasn't performance, but had performance variants that could handle track work.
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Civic is slower than the M3P. FYI, Civic Type R starts at $44k... Tesla M3P is $46k (for most buyers).
I mean, even by Throttle House's list, the TM3P isn't all that bad for track times... You are making it seem like TM3P is WAY down the list. It is an efficient family car, that comfortably will seat 5 and beat any of those cars on the list on the street, and keep up with a bunch on a track... With some aftermarket upgrades it can do better.
Civic is slower than the M3P. FYI, Civic Type R starts at $44k... Tesla M3P is $46k (for most buyers).
How about after lap 2, lap 3, lap 4?
That's been the whole point. The Model 3 Performance is all about the hero lap, but falls flat afterward. It can't sustain that performance. The brakes overheated on turn 3 on lap 1 and became total crap by the end of the lap. The Civic can sustain it as it is equipped with the proper brakes, cooling, etc.
I am not talking about how fast one car is or the other. But if Tesla is going to say how good the Model 3 Performance is on the track, it needs to actually be up for a track day. It is not. It's done after 1 lap.
Agreed, never understood that fully until we had a proper M car. Like on paper a 240i can be faster, just as a TM3 might be, but when the whole of the car comes together the useable power and the weight, handling is just on a different level.
Sorry, can you please show me where Tesla said how good the M3P is on the track? I just haven't seen a Tesla ad saying that.
Model 3 Performance | Tesla
Model 3 Performance gives you more control behind the wheel with ultra-responsive handling and advanced aerodynamics.
They talk here a bit about using it on the track. So it does kinda imply it is built for that.
Introducing the New Model 3 Performance | Tesla
Six years after the first Model 3 Performance deliveries, we are proud to launch the new Model 3 Performance: a highly differentiated performance trim that leverages Tesla’s latest manufacturing and engineering capabilities to create what we consider to be a perfect, high-performance daily driver.
Model 3 Performance | Tesla
Model 3 Performance gives you more control behind the wheel with ultra-responsive handling and advanced aerodynamics.www.tesla.com
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They talk here a bit about using it on the track. So it does kinda imply it is built for that.
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Introducing the New Model 3 Performance | Tesla
Six years after the first Model 3 Performance deliveries, we are proud to launch the new Model 3 Performance: a highly differentiated performance trim that leverages Tesla’s latest manufacturing and engineering capabilities to create what we consider to be a perfect, high-performance daily driver.www.tesla.com
Agree 100% (bold text). Regardless of which type of car you drive, the cost for the consumer will be higher in years to come. You can see the same for every product you buy today, by average, compared to two or three years ago. People earn more each year, and at the same time the consumer's cost of living increases accordingly. About 20 years ago I used to buy leather boots that were made in Germany (I still have some that are 35 years old), and paid around $64.00 at Cabela's (US retailer). Then the price was $100 about 8 years ago. If I want to buy a similarly designed boot (similar materials and quality), I would have to pay from $400.00 to $600.00 US today.They are about to try and kill the transition to EV’s in the UK unfortunately. The luxury car premium is now coming to EV’s over £40k. They just don’t want people relying on cars but have no idea how poor our public transport infrastructure is. I think we are in for a shock as driving any type of car here is about to get very expensive.
New pay-per-mile car tax bands mean drivers will pay £410 without doing a mile
Motorists driving motors worth £40k or more face staggering £410 charges before they have even done ONE mile under the system.www.birminghammail.co.uk
I got an invitation yesterday from Renault Netherlands to come and join them at a launch, and test drive party for the new 5. Not sure if the Renault 5 ever made it to the US, so for my US friends it was an iconic small family hatchback, with some well-loved cool versions like the 5GT and 5 Turbo. I think they've done an excellent styling job with, to make a modern EV platform (based on using Google AAOS which I really like) in a small, light city car.
As we are pursuing a different lifestyle, moving back to the Netherlands, and into a city centre, we are seriously considering this as not only the car for our youngest daughter to start learning to drive in. It is also a general household runabout. And then keeping a larger vehicle for our international travels (got to admit the just become available to order Audi A6 e-Tron is looking very intriguing for that as well).
Due to the international nature of the forum, I've linked to the UK version for the English website, although specifications do vary a little, not least that you can't actually configure one…
www.renault.co.uk
So the Dutch website has additional information and interactivity https://www.renault.nl/elektrische-autos/r5-e-tech-electric.html and Alpine also a very interesting version which looks like great fun https://www.alpinecars.nl/elektrische-modellen/a290.html
As we are pursuing a different lifestyle, moving back to the Netherlands, and into a city centre, we are seriously considering this as not only the car for our youngest daughter to start learning to drive in. It is also a general household runabout. And then keeping a larger vehicle for our international travels (got to admit the just become available to order Audi A6 e-Tron is looking very intriguing for that as well).
Due to the international nature of the forum, I've linked to the UK version for the English website, although specifications do vary a little, not least that you can't actually configure one…
Renault 5 - Fully electric city car byRenault
Discover All-New Renault 5 100% electric: contemporary design, with Reno virtual assistant and Google built-in. Stay informed.
So the Dutch website has additional information and interactivity https://www.renault.nl/elektrische-autos/r5-e-tech-electric.html and Alpine also a very interesting version which looks like great fun https://www.alpinecars.nl/elektrische-modellen/a290.html
Both false. The 0-60 can be repeated over and over again. And the new Model 3 improves on the high speed regime - look at its 60-120mph (100-200kph) times.
So your critique is it's not trackable, and you compare it to Civic Type R, GTI, Mustang GT, your Corvette.
The GTI is not trackable. Comparably equipped Mustang is $60k. Corvette starts at $70k...
Model 3P is $55k, $47k for most customers.
1. Upgrade pads, fluids, and shocks, and it'll perform how?
2. Between 0-60 acceleration, 100mph+ driving, and track days, which of those do people do most? And which car is best for what they do most?
Then don't state how great the Model 3 Performance is on the track. Simple.
1. Moment you modify it, the discussion is out of the window. It's all about factory equipment. Only exception is fluids as that is standard track day prep and often called by the owners manual.
2. I don't care how most people will use it. How many track their Type R's, Corvette's, 911's, Ferrari's? I am talking about getting the car enthusiast to buy in on EV's. You're trying to justify crap by a train of thought used by non-car people who only view it as a tool for Point A and B and drive Prius's or the like. If you were a car enthusiast, you would get what I am getting at.
And yes my critique has been focused on it not being trackable and you don't need to spend well above the M3P's price range to get something trackable. Don't say it has track ready brakes when it can't last even 1 lap. Don't say it has the suspension to handle driving around curves when pushing it causes it to bottom out. I am calling out Tesla for their BS claims. And I say this again as a Model 3 owner. Love the car, but don't BS me.
I am not bashing Dodge for how the Demon is a POS track car. But then again they never claimed that car to be a great track car. They always stressed its drag strip performance. So don't make claims that can't be backed up.
And I do apologize with the GTI. Looks like the Golf R is the more appropriate model for track days.
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It is the bit that annoys me about Tesla, especially as well. And not just that, they are also about the only manufacturer that quote their 0-60s without the rollout. I mean it is fast as it is, why use silly little tricks like that to make it look better and less compatible. Similar to the old ludicrous plus mode and getting the battery at operating temperature before it finally can do that sprint. They should add that to the 0-60 time, as I'll be in a different country by then even when driving a Citroën 2CV
It is the bit that annoys me about Tesla, especially as well. And not just that, they are also about the only manufacturer that quote their 0-60s without the rollout. I mean it is fast as it is, why use silly little tricks like that to make it look better and less compatible. Similar to the old ludicrous plus mode and getting the battery at operating temperature before it finally can do that sprint. They should add that to the 0-60 time, as I'll be in a different country by then even when driving a Citroën 2CV
That's another thing.....
They use both methods for 0-60 times. Just depends on the model.
The Model 3 LR's 0-60 is without rollout subtracted.
The Model 3 Performance is with rollout subtracted.
It makes the performance gap between the two bigger, but really closer together especially if one buys acceleration boost on the LR.
But other manufacturers pull similar stunts. To bring Dodge back into it, their performance figures require a prepped surface to get close to their claims. I will grant putting that power to just the rear wheels on non-prepped surfaces is a struggle, but there are similar asterisks when it comes to a manufactures claim to performance.
The Model 3 Performance is pretty much a Civic Si situation. It's just a faster version of the regular Model 3 with sportier accents, but it's a street-only car still.
I guess here in Europe the straight line 'racing' culture is not as developed, so unless buying a specifically prepped car for that kind of sport nobody really cares that much about that and you don't see those kinds of differences in reporting.
Are you talking about the Model 3 Performance, or Model 3 Type R, or Model 3 Track Pack, or Model 3 RS, or Model 3 GT3?
You don't care how most people use it? Fine. 99.9% of owners -- who will never visit a track -- don't care how you think it performs on the track. Whose opinion carry more weight?
All of cars you list are road vehicles, and sold as road vehicles, and many of them drive like POS on the road. Are you angry at that too?
Don't gatekeep who is a car enthusiast and who is not. Tesla will end this year with the best selling car in America, and the best selling car in the world. Maybe trying to appeal to the self-appointed "enthusiast" police isn't necessary?