Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[JT2002TJ]

This is an oft-touted argument…that I find mis-direction at best. Where does the electric power come from that powers the refinery that takes crude oil and cracks it into fuels? Where does the electric power come from that is used to pump crude oil and fuels through pipelines? Where does the electric power come from that pumps fuels into delivery trucks to distribute to gas stations? Where does the electric power come from that service stations use to pump all that fuel into trucks/cars? And on and on. Silly argument…to me.

Even small refineries use tens of megawatts to power them, and large ones use orders of magnitude more. That’s a lot of juice. And that power comes from where exactly?

From magical Oil Elves...

It is a silly argument, used to fight progress. The argument is always, the replacement isn't perfect, therefore we should just stop...

The ICE didn't start with 40+ mpg. These are the same people who would be like, where is all this oil and gas going to come from, right now, I grow all the food for my horses on my farm.

I have issues with some aspects of EVs, but am fascinated by them. My sister has a Model 3, I drove it, WOW, I love it. I will have an EV in the near future.

 

[960design]

TL;DR
I just picked up a new Tesla Model 3.
First supercharge in Montgomery, AL on the way back home from Atlanta.

It charged so fast, waiting on my french fries across the street cost an extra dollar super charger fee.
I think the recharge was something like $4.60 ( 23% - 80% ), the late charge of 1 minute was $1.20.
I have since removed the wheel covers. I like it better without.

Grab popcorn, boring story:
Back in late April of this year I went to the local Cadillac dealership to replace my six year old ( recently out of warranty ) 2016 CTS. I loved it and wanted one of the new CT6 with the twin turbos. Dealership said they would be happy to order one for me, all I had to do was come on down for signature and down payment. When I arrived I noticed the dealership markup of $15,000 (fifteen thousand - no error) over MSRP. I immediately walked out and ordered a Tesla Model 3 LR at MSRP. I picked it up in Atlanta last week and drove it the 340ish miles home. Most relaxing drive ever.
The car completely spoils me by preconditioning the interior temp to 70 as I get off work.

 

[bluespark]

From magical Oil Elves...

It is a silly argument, used to fight progress. The argument is always, the replacement isn't perfect, therefore we should just stop...

The ICE didn't start with 40+ mpg. These are the same people who would be like, where is all this oil and gas going to come from, right now, I grow all the food for my horses on my farm.

I have issues with some aspects of EVs, but am fascinated by them. My sister has a Model 3, I drove it, WOW, I love it. I will have an EV in the near future.

True -- no one is saying that EV has no environmental impact -- it clearly does. But the environmental impact from EVs is far less than from ICE vehicles. When you add in economies of scale and the technological improvements that will come with widespread adoption (as we're already seeing), the net positive change resulting from EV adoption is undeniable.

Having said that, we could go *much* further by using nuclear power to generate this electricity.

 

[Tagbert]

Electric cars are a great idea. You do have to consider however where the electric power comes from that you use to charge the car. And I am not sure if that’s really settled yet.

If I were buying today I would get a hybrid first, a hydrogen fuel cell ( if anyone is offering one) second, and then I would look at electric cars. MY caveat above applies as does a question of what battery technology is used. There is a lot of movement in this space and rare earths are an issue.

art K

If your concern is about the CO2 generate by the power for EVs, you can stop worrying so much. Most electrical grids have reduced their carbon output considerably in the last decade and are continuing to cleanup. In the US wind, solar, and hydro are significant sources of power. Yes, natural gas has increased its share over the last decade but that is mostly at the expense of coal which has dropped dramatically. Natural gas produces significantly less carbon than coal for power. Most of the current push is in wind and solar. Nuclear can be in the mix but has not gotten traction in a while. Even China is shifting their power sources toward renewables though some of their capacity expansion is still in coal.

Because EVs are so efficient, the source of the power actually doesn't matter as much as ICEVs. If you were to run an EV on a power grid that only used coal, the EV would still only generate about the same carbon as a 50mpg ICEV. There are hardly any energy grids that dirty, though. The US grid is much lower in carbon than that so that EV will generate only a fraction of the carbon as an ICEV.

 

[Apple fanboy]

If your concern is about the CO2 generate by the power for EVs, you can stop worrying so much. Most electrical grids have reduced their carbon output considerably in the last decade and are continuing to cleanup. In the US wind, solar, and hydro are significant sources of power. Yes, natural gas has increased its share over the last decade but that is mostly at the expense of coal which has dropped dramatically. Natural gas produces significantly less carbon than coal for power. Most of the current push is in wind and solar. Nuclear can be in the mix but has not gotten traction in a while. Even China is shifting their power sources toward renewables though some of their capacity expansion is still in coal.

Because EVs are so efficient, the source of the power actually doesn't matter as much as ICEVs. If you were to run an EV on a power grid that only used coal, the EV would still only generate about the same carbon as a 50mpg ICEV. There are hardly any energy grids that dirty, though. The US grid is much lower in carbon than that so that EV will generate only a fraction of the carbon as an ICEV.

Many EV’s (including my i3) are also made in factories that use 100% renewable energy.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Many EV’s (including my i3) are also made in factories that use 100% renewable energy.

Definitely, our Polestar also do their best https://www.polestar.com/uk/sustainability/

And on top of it; its vegan https://www.peta.org/living/humane-...ric-car-features-an-animal-friendly-interior/

But seriously, I don't care about stuff like that...at all. Definitely not a driving factor for me. To me it is just a fantastic car that drives brilliantly. We didn't even set out to specifically get an EV when replacing our BMW M2C...I find that all a bit pretentious and virtue signalling....I just like cars...

 

[AlaskaMoose]

If your concern is about the CO2 generate by the power for EVs, you can stop worrying so much. Most electrical grids have reduced their carbon output considerably in the last decade and are continuing to cleanup. In the US wind, solar, and hydro are significant sources of power. Yes, natural gas has increased its share over the last decade but that is mostly at the expense of coal which has dropped dramatically. Natural gas produces significantly less carbon than coal for power. Most of the current push is in wind and solar. Nuclear can be in the mix but has not gotten traction in a while. Even China is shifting their power sources toward renewables though some of their capacity expansion is still in coal.

Because EVs are so efficient, the source of the power actually doesn't matter as much as ICEVs. If you were to run an EV on a power grid that only used coal, the EV would still only generate about the same carbon as a 50mpg ICEV. There are hardly any energy grids that dirty, though. The US grid is much lower in carbon than that so that EV will generate only a fraction of the carbon as an ICEV.

It is not as simple as that. The carbon footprint for building an EV is greater than the carbon footprint for building an ICE automobile, because of the EV's battery. It is only when this new EV and the ICE counterpart are driven where the EV makes a difference. The main advantage of an EV is the lack of tailpipe emissions from here on. The main advantage of an ICE automobile is its greater drive range. While natural gas is cleaner than coal and petroleum-base fuels, it still produces carbon. During the process of extracting natural gas from the ground leaks/venting are common.

While "renewables" such as hydro, wind, and solar are great, these could not keep-up with the demand for electricity in the US. Also, there are several obstacles to hydro-power generation pertaining to the environment, and to social issues (the people affected in the lands near the dam). Now, it is a very different story relating the production of Electricity in Norway. A very small country that has lots of moving water:

List of rivers of Norway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

These are the energy sources used to produce electricity in the US:

Electricity in the U.S. - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

The major fuel/energy sources and their contribution to annual U.S. electricity generation.

www.eia.gov

 

[Apple fanboy]

It is not as simple as that. The carbon footprint for building an EV is greater than the carbon footprint for building an ICE automobile, because of the EV's battery. It is only when this new EV and the ICE counterpart are driven where the EV makes a difference. The main advantage of an EV is the lack of tailpipe emissions from here on. The main advantage of an ICE automobile is its greater drive range. While natural gas is cleaner than coal and petroleum-base fuels, it still produces carbon. During the process of extracting natural gas from the ground leaks/venting are common.

While "renewables" such as hydro, wind, and solar are great, these could not keep-up with the demand for electricity in the US. Also, there are several obstacles to hydro-power generation pertaining to the environment, and to social issues (the people affected in the lands near the dam). Now, it is a very different story relating the production of Electricity in Norway. A very small country that has lots of moving water:

List of rivers of Norway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

These are the energy sources used to produce electricity in the US:

Electricity in the U.S. - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

The major fuel/energy sources and their contribution to annual U.S. electricity generation.

www.eia.gov

It takes around two years for the average EV to be driven to offset the carbon footprint of it being built compared to driving your existing ICE.
But of course some EV’s are more efficient than others. Mine is a lot lighter than most and was built with recycled materials, so probably a lot less than two years. But as I intend to keep it for 5+ years at least it’s going to be much better for the environment than if I’d been running a fossil fuel burner.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

TL;DR
I just picked up a new Tesla Model 3.
First supercharge in Montgomery, AL on the way back home from Atlanta.

It charged so fast, waiting on my french fries across the street cost an extra dollar super charger fee.
I think the recharge was something like $4.60 ( 23% - 80% ), the late charge of 1 minute was $1.20.
I have since removed the wheel covers. I like it better without.

View attachment 2047552

Grab popcorn, boring story:
Back in late April of this year I went to the local Cadillac dealership to replace my six year old ( recently out of warranty ) 2016 CTS. I loved it and wanted one of the new CT6 with the twin turbos. Dealership said they would be happy to order one for me, all I had to do was come on down for signature and down payment. When I arrived I noticed the dealership markup of $15,000 (fifteen thousand - no error) over MSRP. I immediately walked out and ordered a Tesla Model 3 LR at MSRP. I picked it up in Atlanta last week and drove it the 340ish miles home. Most relaxing drive ever.
The car completely spoils me by preconditioning the interior temp to 70 as I get off work.

Not sure how much a Model 3 costs in the US but here they are:

They seem to be growing in popularity here though but I’d imagine 90% are leased as is the case with a lot of cars £40k+ here.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

It takes around two years for the average EV to be driven to offset the carbon footprint of it being built compared to driving your existing ICE.
But of course some EV’s are more efficient than others. Mine is a lot lighter than most and was built with recycled materials, so probably a lot less than two years. But as I intend to keep it for 5+ years at least it’s going to be much better for the environment than if I’d been running a fossil fuel burner.

Agree.

 

[BigMcGuire]

My wife and I are still loving our 2018 Tesla Model 3 (we bought used from Tesla in February 2022). Once it adapted to our driving styles it has stayed at 274-276 max range (AWD LR edition) now since April. We usually super charge a hand full of times a month. We've had absolutely no problems with this car. We weren't terribly happy about Supercharging rates going up and peak hours being 10am-10pm but hey, whatever.

Keep in mind we do not have level 2 charging at home, so we plug into a normal outlet to charge at home (5mi/hr), charging at work is done via 20amp outlet (6.7+mi/hr). My wife drives 110 miles every other day - which is why on the weekends we usually have to supercharge if we visit family (120+ miles round trip). We're consuming around 505 kWh a month. 51% home, 22% supercharger, 22% work, and 5% other (free Volta chargers at malls/grocery stores).

Note for those who were mentioning privacy - Tesla has many privacy options to prevent data from getting from your car to Tesla. There's around a handful of options you can turn off if you are privacy minded. We leave them on ... <shrug> - but I can imagine some people don't want video recordings of the cabin going to Tesla and stuff like that.

Here in CA most of our electricity comes from CNG and renewables. SCE discourages charging during 4-9pm during peak rates and rewards those that don't (like me). 94% of our charging is done during off peak hours.


Driving this thing is a blast. The 3.6 second 0-60 is never dull. It has gotten me out of several sticky situations when I needed it to. Keep in mind, my previous 3 cars were Civics. I love that driving in traffic can add 30-40% range to my trip. I no longer get as frustrated as I used to when traffic happens - or I need to slam on my brakes = power back in my battery. It has really helped with my enjoyment of driving in LA traffic.

We almost never use the full self driving mode - too many streets without clear driving lines. I use traffic aware cruise control often (especially when in traffic).

The ability to remotely cool the cabin in the summer has been AMAZING.

My wife and I will definitely go Tesla for our next car(s).

 

[Apple fanboy]

My wife and I are still loving our 2018 Tesla Model 3 (we bought used from Tesla in February 2022). Once it adapted to our driving styles it has stayed at 274-276 max range (AWD LR edition) now since April. We usually super charge a hand full of times a month. We've had absolutely no problems with this car. We weren't terribly happy about Supercharging rates going up and peak hours being 10am-10pm but hey, whatever.

Keep in mind we do not have level 2 charging at home, so we plug into a normal outlet to charge at home (5mi/hr), charging at work is done via 20amp outlet (6.7+mi/hr). My wife drives 110 miles every other day - which is why on the weekends we usually have to supercharge if we visit family (120+ miles round trip). We're consuming around 505 kWh a month. 51% home, 22% supercharger, 22% work, and 5% other (free Volta chargers at malls/grocery stores).

Note for those who were mentioning privacy - Tesla has many privacy options to prevent data from getting from your car to Tesla. There's around a handful of options you can turn off if you are privacy minded. We leave them on ... <shrug> - but I can imagine some people don't want video recordings of the cabin going to Tesla and stuff like that.

Here in CA most of our electricity comes from CNG and renewables. SCE discourages charging during 4-9pm during peak rates and rewards those that don't (like me). 94% of our charging is done during off peak hours.


Driving this thing is a blast. The 3.6 second 0-60 is never dull. It has gotten me out of several sticky situations when I needed it to. Keep in mind, my previous 3 cars were Civics. I love that driving in traffic can add 30-40% range to my trip. I no longer get as frustrated as I used to when traffic happens - or I need to slam on my brakes = power back in my battery. It has really helped with my enjoyment of driving in LA traffic.

We almost never use the full self driving mode - too many streets without clear driving lines. I use traffic aware cruise control often (especially when in traffic).

The ability to remotely cool the cabin in the summer has been AMAZING.

My wife and I will definitely go Tesla for our next car(s).

I also love putting the AC on whilst I’m plugged in at work. It’s great getting into a car that’s nice and cool when it’s baking hot. Nearly as good as charging for free at work.

 

[BigMcGuire]

I also love putting the AC on whilst I’m plugged in at work. It’s great getting into a car that’s nice and cool when it’s baking hot. Nearly as good as charging for free at work.

The university my wife works at (for her PhD) gives us "free" charging via 20 amp outlets - included in the very expensive cost of parking every quarter, but yeah, yesterday (Saturday) we had to drop something off at her office and we plugged in for 15 mins - I made sure to get the AC nice and cold - nothing like free charging/free AC. Well ... you know what I mean. lol. "free"

Those free VOLTA chargers are sure nice when you can get them. Usually 21-35mi/hr. We actually have a 50 amp 200v one at our local mall (brand new). But they're very popular. lol.

 

[Apple fanboy]

The university my wife works at (for her PhD) gives us "free" charging via 20 amp outlets - included in the very expensive cost of parking every quarter, but yeah, yesterday (Saturday) we had to drop something off at her office and we plugged in for 15 mins - I made sure to get the AC nice and cold - nothing like free charging/free AC. Well ... you know what I mean. lol. "free"

Those free VOLTA chargers are sure nice when you can get them. Usually 21-35mi/hr. We actually have a 50 amp 200v one at our local mall (brand new). But they're very popular. lol.

Mine is 100% free. We don’t pay to park at work.

 

[VuvuzelaiPhone]

Not sure why you say it is silly. It is reality for me. Where I used to work they were moving offices and the new offices would have reduced parking so they did a survey for public transport. It takes me 30-40 minutes to drive, and I would need to leave the evening before, stay in a hotel, if I want to be in the office by 9.30 in the morning....I'd use public transport if it was better, but it isn't good enough for many people...

I can only hope you're using this reality to champion for better public transport, work from home, and less dependency overall for individuals to drive around personal vehicles just to live.

 

[VuvuzelaiPhone]

Electric cars are a great idea.

If you assume we have to keep living with personal vehicles. We created this situation and now of course the capitalists are here to solve it for us.

Rather than re-think what we've been doing, many seem more than happy to hop onto the electric cars as the solution to climate change. This isn't a surprise though, many in our society seem content to let private corporations dictate to us what we need.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

The university my wife works at (for her PhD) gives us "free" charging via 20 amp outlets - included in the very expensive cost of parking every quarter, but yeah, yesterday (Saturday) we had to drop something off at her office and we plugged in for 15 mins - I made sure to get the AC nice and cold - nothing like free charging/free AC. Well ... you know what I mean. lol. "free"

Those free VOLTA chargers are sure nice when you can get them. Usually 21-35mi/hr. We actually have a 50 amp 200v one at our local mall (brand new). But they're very popular. lol.

The saying that,"there is not a thing as a free lunch," is true. Your wife is paying a very high price for parking. It was the same for me at my place of work before I retired. The "free electricity" was part of the yearly parking fee.

 

[diamond.g]

If you assume we have to keep living with personal vehicles. We created this situation and now of course the capitalists are here to solve it for us.

Rather than re-think what we've been doing, many seem more than happy to hop onto the electric cars as the solution to climate change. This isn't a surprise though, many in our society seem content to let private corporations dictate to us what we need.

It also depends on what country you live in and where in said country you live. In the United States public transportation works well for cities, but not so much in rural areas. So electric (or hydrogen fuel cell) cars should be considered a decent compromise. Of course that is assuming you can get folks here to give up their V8 trucks...

 

[AlaskaMoose]

If you assume we have to keep living with personal vehicles. We created this situation and now of course the capitalists are here to solve it for us.

Rather than re-think what we've been doing, many seem more than happy to hop onto the electric cars as the solution to climate change. This isn't a surprise though, many in our society seem content to let private corporations dictate to us what we need.

I have no idea if it has to do with "capitalists" and private corporations or not, but you are correct in what you have said about personal vehicles. In reality, all that is being done by governments/industries is switching from an already expensive product, "fuel", to another expensive product, "batteries"...in order to perpetuate the illusion that humans will reverse human-caused global warming.

Humans aren't going to not travel by air and water that requires the use fuels, nor are the construction and transportation industries, or even the military, to stop using internal combustion engines any time soon. Fossil fuels are used for heating not only homes, but entire cities around the world.

Long-haul trucks with ICE engines are designed to haul heavy loads and reach long drive ranges that aren't possible by the use of batteries. Hybrid trucks would have long drive ranges too, but these require the use of fuel in addition to batteries.

 

[VuvuzelaiPhone]

It also depends on what country you live in and where in said country you live. In the United States public transportation works well for cities, but not so much in rural areas. So electric (or hydrogen fuel cell) cars should be considered a decent compromise. Of course that is assuming you can get folks here to give up their V8 trucks...

This is a choice.

 

[diamond.g]

This is a choice.

Sorta.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

Mine is 100% free. We don’t pay to park at work.

Your employers pay for it from your hourly wage. He or she isn't going to take a loss of revenue.

 

[VuvuzelaiPhone]

Sorta.

When we choose to subsidize electric cars? Absolutely it is.

 

[Pezimak]

I like the Skoda Enyaq coupe, but not for 54 grand! They must have been visiting planet Mars when they came up with that price!

 

[diamond.g]

When we choose to subsidize electric cars? Absolutely it is.

I am not a fan of EV subsidies as they can prop up pricing, but then again I also think that the Oil/Gas industry shouldn't get any either. I also think we should drop the MI deduction as well, no need to incentivize/subsidize home ownership.