Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,974
55,968
Behind the Lens, UK
I average 1100 miles a week. And many of the small towns I visit have no chargers within 75 miles. Some 150. Small towns might have one charger but half the time they are disconnected or out of service. When time is money you don’t have 30 mins to sit and charge. I don’t see people sitting sitting at charging stations in lines of cars like they are evacuating a city being a popular past time on highways.
So you average 220 miles a day. If you stop for lunch somewhere with a charger then you’d be golden.
Now I’m assuming you are in the US? Here in the UK I can’t think of anywhere I could drive and be 75 miles of a charger. It could be you are just behind the curve. The US often is when it comes to technology. Not sure why.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,974
55,968
Behind the Lens, UK
Perhaps they could give us an EV today with the longer range many need if they would cut back performance to something closer to an ICE car. Nobody needs such fast acceleration as most current EVs provide even if it is fun. I don’t know if this is feasible but just wondering here.
That’s a valid point but the instant torque is always going to be there as the drive train just works differently from an inefficient ICE car. Of course if you pull away gently and drive in echo mode (whatever fuel it uses!), you will always increase your range.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tagbert

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
May 7, 2004
15,678
5,511
Sod off
Perhaps they could give us an EV today with the longer range many need if they would cut back performance to something closer to an ICE car. Nobody needs such fast acceleration as most current EVs provide even if it is fun. I don’t know if this is feasible but just wondering here.

I agree, but manufacturers are always tempted to take advantage of how easy it is to make a fast EV; it's seen as one potential way to lure the macho coal-rollers into an EV without making them feel like 'snowflakes.' The F-150 Lightning's power and torque figures are a big selling point.

If battery tech matures in line with more optimistic predictions, we can probably have our cake and eat it too in terms of raw performance coupled with economy and affordability. If.
 

4sallypat

macrumors 601
Sep 16, 2016
4,034
3,782
So Calif
I would be interested in hearing your comparative experience with the two, especially in light of the issues recently coming to light with the 'Mustang.' I could see myself coming up with an argument for getting myself an EV F-150 (especially if I get to the point where I could charge it with my own solar), but never in a million years will I ever buy any new SUV, and especially not one Ford is attempting to sell as a 'Mustang'. Not a dig at you at all, merely my personal tastes.
Funny you mention the Mustang Mach E as "SUV".
IRS just published the rule on the MME as "CAR/SEDAN".
I'd qualify that the MME is actually a crossover (CUV) due to the unibody construction.

Thus it qualifies for the Fed tax credit only if the MSRP is under $55K.

Mine just happens to come in at $54,975.

A mere $25 and it squeezed thru to get the full $7500 tax credit for 2023 !
Screen Shot 2022-12-29 at 9.17.06 AM.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tagbert

4sallypat

macrumors 601
Sep 16, 2016
4,034
3,782
So Calif
My biggest concern is emergency use. Say your elderly parents or son or daughter at college is hospitalized or something 6-8 hours away and your EV has only 1/2 a charge. You don’t have the time to charge. You need a vehicle that can get there fast with no delays. When EVs can be charged fully in same time it takes to fill my 13gallon tank on my Civic and can drive 460 miles on a single charge I am not interested. EV as they are kill road trips and family vacations.
Just like an ICE vehicle, I always keep the fuel tank full just in case of emergency (natural disaster, power failure, weather).

I keep all my EVs fully charged at all times.

If I need to drive it distance, I will end up at a fast charger where I would pay $0.31/kWh.

About 20-30 minutes and fully charged and ready to go - just enough time to go bathroom, get a snack or coffee or lunch ....

About the same time I take with an ICE on long distance trips....
 
  • Like
Reactions: cyb3rdud3

Tagbert

macrumors 603
Jun 22, 2011
6,254
7,280
Seattle
With the RIGHT EV. That’s the key. Affordable EVs are ****. 150 mil range for 25k is a joke.
You may need to wait for a few more years yet before the faster charging tech gets into EVs that are getting into your price range. Otherwise look at the used market. That is what people do now for ICE vehicles when new ones are a stretch for their budget.

there is a $25K vehicle already with about 250 miles of range. The only problem is that is is older tech and the max charging rate is not enough for your emergency hospital trip scenario.
 

quagmire

macrumors 604
Apr 19, 2004
6,985
2,492
Funny you mention the Mustang Mach E as "SUV".
IRS just published the rule on the MME as "CAR/SEDAN".
I'd qualify that the MME is actually a crossover (CUV) due to the unibody construction.

Cars are unibody construction as well. They were unibody well before crossovers existed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4sallypat

Tagbert

macrumors 603
Jun 22, 2011
6,254
7,280
Seattle
I average 1100 miles a week. And many of the small towns I visit have no chargers within 75 miles. Some 150. Small towns might have one charger but half the time they are disconnected or out of service. When time is money you don’t have 30 mins to sit and charge. I don’t see people sitting sitting at charging stations in lines of cars like they are evacuating a city being a popular past time on highways.
Look beyond this year. The charging situation is changing rapidly. Electrify America for instance says that they expect to double their charging network by 2025. They are also replacing their first gen chargers with more reliable models. Other network vendors are doing similar. I suspect, by the time you are ready for an EV, the charging network will be fine, even in your area.
 

Tagbert

macrumors 603
Jun 22, 2011
6,254
7,280
Seattle
Perhaps they could give us an EV today with the longer range many need if they would cut back performance to something closer to an ICE car. Nobody needs such fast acceleration as most current EVs provide even if it is fun. I don’t know if this is feasible but just wondering here.
Due to how EVs work, there is very little efficiency penalty for more powerful motors. There are almost no parasitic losses like you would get in an ICE. A fast EV is probably about as efficient as a less powerful one. There can be a cost difference but that is about it. That’s why most EVs are on the quicker end of the market.
 

jaymc

macrumors 6502a
Nov 10, 2012
511
269
Port Orchard, WA
Have had my 2013 Model S P85+ for a while now, almost 77k miles with no major problems. Still charges to 98% charge after 10 years. It has no autopilot, no cameras, not even heated steering wheel, but I don't care. It's rear wheel driven and one fuse pull away from being able to drift. Also, since it's <2018, it's got free supercharging, free streaming, free map support for the life of the car.
Didn't buy the car cause of any environmental issue; it's just plain fun to drive. :)
 

AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,586
13,429
Alaska
So you average 220 miles a day. If you stop for lunch somewhere with a charger then you’d be golden.
Now I’m assuming you are in the US? Here in the UK I can’t think of anywhere I could drive and be 75 miles of a charger. It could be you are just behind the curve. The US often is when it comes to technology. Not sure why.
The US is such a large country that long travel distances are possible in several States, while in most of Europe countries, towns, and cities are in close proximity with each other. It is much economical for any country to have EV's and charging stations in the metropolitan areas where most of the people are living close to each other than in the urban areas where people or town are far from each other.

That said, if you read the news from Norway, for the last few months they have had great increases in the cost of electricity. So high it can be that it can cost as much or more to charge an EV than to fuel the tank with petrol. Will Norway and France be able to export sufficient electricity to power the rest of Europe? Will every EU nation be able generate its own electricity? Discussions like these are taking place in the UK and Germany at the moment, at least according to international news reports reports I have been reading, some which have been published this week.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jaymc

jaymc

macrumors 6502a
Nov 10, 2012
511
269
Port Orchard, WA
The US is such a large country that long travel distances are possible in several States, while in most of Europe countries, towns, and cities are in close proximity with each other. It is much economical for any country to have EV's and charging stations in the metropolitan areas where most of the people are living close to each other than in the urban areas where people or town are far from each other.

That said, if you read the news from Norway, for the last few months they have had great increases in the cost of electricity. So high it can be that it can cost as much or more to charge an EV than to fuel the tank with petrol. Will Norway and France be able to export sufficient electricity to power the rest of Europe? Will every EU nation be able generate its own electricity? Discussions like these are taking place in the UK and Germany at the moment, at least according to international news reports reports I have been reading, some which have been published this week.
Just looked up the number of Tesla superchargers in Alaska ... only 2 locations with a total of 12 stalls! 😳
 

AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,586
13,429
Alaska
Due to how EVs work, there is very little efficiency penalty for more powerful motors. There are almost no parasitic losses like you would get in an ICE. A fast EV is probably about as efficient as a less powerful one. There can be a cost difference but that is about it. That’s why most EVs are on the quicker end of the market.
While the electric motor is the most efficient, that doesn't tell the reason why an ICE automobile has a greater drive range than a similarly constructed EV. The reason why an ICE automobile can achieve a greater drive range than an EV, even with its vastly inferior efficiency is because one gallon of gasoline contains 33.410107 Kilowatt Hours of energy (great density), and also because one gallon of fgasoline weights 6 pounds.

A 33-kilowatt hours battery is already very heavy regardless if its fully charged or not. Just imagine that there are two similarly constructed automobiles, 2022 Mini Cooper for example, one powered by a battery and the other by an internal combustion engine (this is the case for the 2022 eMini and the ICE counterpart). Ten gallons of gasoline in the ICE Mini is quite light compared to the battery in the eMini. Just read the specifications of both, and you will notice that the drive range of the ICE Mini is double of the eMini, and also that the eMini is still heavier than the ICE mini.

The ICE mini becomes six pounds lighter every time it consumes one gallon of gasoline, while the weight of the eMini remains the same throughout its battery's discharge. There is no technology in existence that humans can use to build powerful batteries (high capacity batteries) that are extremely light. For example, the electric Hummer weights in excess of 9,000 pounds and carries an extremely heavy battery that allows for producing 1,000 HP, while the electric Ford Lightning is much lighter and carries a smaller battery. If you were to tow two identical 6,000 trailers, one with the Hummer, and the other with the Ford, both trucks would have a similar drive range. In this case the Hummer would have to carry more weight up and down the road than the Ford truck. The more the vehicle weights, the lesser its drive range.

The typical small 4-cylinder automobile such as the Civic, Corolla, and so on can be driven somewhere near 500 miles on 13 gallons of gasoline that weight 74 pounds. You can pack a lot of energy in a battery with 13 gallons of gasoline. It would be an enormous battery, because the more powerful a battery can be, the heavier it becomes.

This engineer explains the density of fuel versus electrical energy (he drives a Tesla automobile):
 
Last edited:

AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,586
13,429
Alaska
Just looked up the number of Tesla superchargers in Alaska ... only 2 locations with a total of 12 stalls! 😳
Yes, there is one location between Anchorage and Fairbanks. Also, Alaska is not very populated compared to most US States. The same can be said for the mid to Northern vast Canadian regions. The electric companies are involved is the installation of more charging stations in the three major cities, but since it gets extremely cold in the interior of Alaska (near Fairbanks), there is great possibility that no EV's are driven by residents in this area, at least during the winter. Also, a lot of people park automobiles outdoors (apartment dwellers, and even residents in family homes). For example, the major stores and supermarkets are found in Fairbanks, and one supermarket is located in North Pole. But since North Pole has a sales tax, most consumers travel from 10 to 100 miles to shop in Fairbanks, bypassing North Pole, unless they only need a few products instead of a lot of groceries, furniture, clothings, gasoline, and so on.

My wife and I have three vehicles that are parked at our house's driveways, and two more parked in the 2-door garage. Our adult sons live in their own places near Fairbanks, but if they were to live with us they would park their vehicles outdoors. :)
 
Last edited:

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,974
55,968
Behind the Lens, UK
The US is such a large country that long travel distances are possible in several States, while in most of Europe countries, towns, and cities are in close proximity with each other. It is much economical for any country to have EV's and charging stations in the metropolitan areas where most of the people are living close to each other than in the urban areas where people or town are far from each other.

That said, if you read the news from Norway, for the last few months they have had great increases in the cost of electricity. So high it can be that it can cost as much or more to charge an EV than to fuel the tank with petrol. Will Norway and France be able to export sufficient electricity to power the rest of Europe? Will every EU nation be able generate its own electricity? Discussions like these are taking place in the UK and Germany at the moment, at least according to international news reports reports I have been reading, some which have been published this week.
We produce plenty of natural gas here in the UK. But just have nowhere to store it so we export it to Europe in the summer and import it in the winter. Worked fine until the situation with Russia. That said the petrol prices here are much higher than in the states, so maybe that’s another reason that EV’s are growing in popularity here.
Norway is an interesting country given how cold it is yet they have mass adoption of EV’s. The highest in Europe I read somewhere.
Hopefully the US will start to put more charging networks in (assuming the lobbyists allow it!). Then you can too enjoy the quiet drive of an EV.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
56,974
55,968
Behind the Lens, UK
While the electric motor is the most efficient, that doesn't tell the reason why an ICE automobile has a greater drive range than a similarly constructed EV. The reason why an ICE automobile can achieve a greater drive range than an EV, even with its vastly inferior efficiency is because one gallon of gasoline contains 33.410107 Kilowatt Hours of energy (great density), and also because one gallon of fgasoline weights 6 pounds.

A 33-kilowatt hours battery is already very heavy regardless if its fully charged or not. Just imagine that there are two similarly constructed automobiles, 2022 Mini Cooper for example, one powered by a battery and the other by an internal combustion engine (this is the case for the 2022 eMini and the ICE counterpart). Ten gallons of gasoline in the ICE Mini is quite light compared to the battery in the eMini. Just read the specifications of both, and you will notice that the drive range of the ICE Mini is double of the eMini, and also that the eMini is still heavier than the ICE mini.

The ICE mini becomes six pounds lighter every time it consumes one gallon of gasoline, while the weight of the eMini remains the same throughout its battery's discharge. There is no technology in existence that humans can use to build powerful batteries (high capacity batteries) that are extremely light. For example, the electric Hummer weights in excess of 9,000 pounds and carries an extremely heavy battery that allows for producing 1,000 HP, while the electric Ford Lightning is much lighter and carries a smaller battery. If you were to tow two identical 6,000 trailers, one with the Hummer, and the other with the Ford, both trucks would have a similar drive range. In this case the Hummer would have to carry more weight up and down the road than the Ford truck. The more the vehicle weights, the lesser its drive range.

The typical small 4-cylinder automobile such as the Civic, Corolla, and so on can be driven somewhere near 500 miles on 13 gallons of gasoline that weight 74 pounds. You can pack a lot of energy in a battery with 13 gallons of gasoline. It would be an enormous battery, because the more powerful a battery can be, the heavier it becomes.

This engineer explains the density of fuel versus electrical energy (he drives a Tesla automobile):
It’s true batteries are heavy. But the way I look at it is I don’t need to carry 500 miles of range around each day when my commute is close to 35 miles each way. Now if I had to go fill up at a petrol station I would never do it 150 miles at a time. But with an EV it charges whilst you sleep or in my case, work in the office. So it works much better than having to go find a petrol station. Especially as I live in the country and our local small independent one is very expensive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BigMcGuire

cyb3rdud3

macrumors 601
Jun 22, 2014
4,071
2,735
UK
Funny you mention the Mustang Mach E as "SUV".
IRS just published the rule on the MME as "CAR/SEDAN".
I'd qualify that the MME is actually a crossover (CUV) due to the unibody construction.
By that definition, my full-size Range Rover is also a crossover ;) I'm sorry, but calling the best of the best of the off-road luxury vehicles a cross-over would be a bit odd, don't you think?
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,143
14,570
New Hampshire
So you average 220 miles a day. If you stop for lunch somewhere with a charger then you’d be golden.
Now I’m assuming you are in the US? Here in the UK I can’t think of anywhere I could drive and be 75 miles of a charger. It could be you are just behind the curve. The US often is when it comes to technology. Not sure why.

Cheap oil.
 
  • Like
Reactions: decafjava

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,143
14,570
New Hampshire
We produce plenty of natural gas here in the UK. But just have nowhere to store it so we export it to Europe in the summer and import it in the winter. Worked fine until the situation with Russia. That said the petrol prices here are much higher than in the states, so maybe that’s another reason that EV’s are growing in popularity here.
Norway is an interesting country given how cold it is yet they have mass adoption of EV’s. The highest in Europe I read somewhere.
Hopefully the US will start to put more charging networks in (assuming the lobbyists allow it!). Then you can too enjoy the quiet drive of an EV.

The top 3 selling vehicles are monster trucks. It's been that way since at least around 2008. That's the problem to solve - the American love affair with large vehicles because of cheap gasoline.

Natural gas prices have been falling in the US because we're having a really warm winter so far. I see that oil is down 2% this morning as well - not sure if there's a correlation there. It's more likely due to the Chinese PMI numbers cratering to 41 from 46 in November. The 10-year dropped about 12 basis points this morning and the US dollar was up around 1%.

We have capacity and infrastructure problems with electricity in the United States overall and in my area in particular. You have a lot of NIMBY folks who won't allow NG pipelines to cross through their property so the NG companies didn't add capacity even though NG is cheap. It looks like it takes from permitting to construction of a nuclear plant 12 years. I don't know how long it takes to get permitting in. My state had a 100% increase in electricity prices last summer. The neighboring state just had a 60% increase. It seems to me like we have not enough cheap supply right now.
 

JT2002TJ

macrumors 68020
Nov 7, 2013
2,068
1,396
The US often is when it comes to technology. Not sure why.

The US is so large with such a wide range of type of land (with a larger population), it is very very expensive to implement technology. Because of this, upgrading to a newer technology is typically cost prohibitive.

We typically are early adopters of technology (i.e. pagers, cell phones, Cable TV), and spend a crazy amount of money to implement it, we can't just jump to every incremental change that requires new hardware. Look at how far behind we were on GSM phones, and 5G tech.
 
  • Like
Reactions: adrianlondon

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,143
14,570
New Hampshire
Just like an ICE vehicle, I always keep the fuel tank full just in case of emergency (natural disaster, power failure, weather).

I keep all my EVs fully charged at all times.

If I need to drive it distance, I will end up at a fast charger where I would pay $0.31/kWh.

About 20-30 minutes and fully charged and ready to go - just enough time to go bathroom, get a snack or coffee or lunch ....

About the same time I take with an ICE on long distance trips....

That's the general solution for the people that I know with EVs. Have a backup ICE vehicle. I have an ICE vehicle and a backup ICE vehicle as one accident can make life pretty difficult until you get it repaired. I think that most people own one car per person, at most, though. So not a practical solution for most.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,143
14,570
New Hampshire
We were lucky, new panel, additional 50amp sub panel along with the associated digging and conduit, and all the hook up was $5k.
Breaker panel prices - shocking? That is an understatement. Luckily the electric company purchased them January 2022. We started the upgrade in oct 21. The electric company had a clause if service was under 1 year it would cost $2500 for an upgrade. 1 year or more no charge to run the new service to the box and switch out meters. Then the city took forever.
We got 6 other quotes, they ranged $8k up to $12k for the job.
One quote was $4000 if we did all the leg work and they just did the hook up without the additional sub.
We are set now.

A lot of people would baulk at those prices for upgrading but I imagine that some, like my friend, bought the car and found out about the electric requirements after purchase. Breaker boxes don't look like much. Just a metal box with a bunch of switches. Those switches cost $70 each though. And then you add the labor to connect everything.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bruinsrme
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.