Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[4sallypat]

Only the base MachE qualifies under this rule.

“MSRP is the retail price of the automobile suggested by the manufacturer, including options, accessories and trim but excluding destination fees. It isn't necessarily the price you pay.”

I am looking at new cars right now and the MachE is a contender as is the Ioniq 5 and several ICE vehicles as well.

EDIT: Sorry I just saw that you didn’t get any options so my bad.

Actually, there are 3 MME that currently qualifies for the tax credit in 2023:
Select RWD
Select AWD
Premium RWD (base - no options).

My order is for a Premium base RWD and squeaked in under the max $55K by a mere $25.

 

[960design]

So true. My point was that electric cars are only locally clean. Fumes still can happen elsewhere. If you look at some overpowered battery cars with several hundred horsepowers installed being macho driven the entire "electric equals green"-mantra feels questionable to me.

Electric cars are only clean locally due to poor political voting.

Burning coal is not required to produce electricity. It is extremely inefficient: heat waste, mining, transportation, etc. Politicians are not subsidized by the sun, nor does the sun post advertisements for media outlets.

The sun is not the total answer, just a small part, hopefully up to 25%. SMRs would be a huge step to inexpensive energy. I napkin calculated that a single SMR would power my county ( about 150k homes ) at the cost of about $0.01US per kWh to the residents. That single SMR could handle about twice that number homes for future proofing. We have to wait a couple of years for the department of energy to properly figure out to tax that one cent up to 15 cents per kWh.

PS. I like my 'macho' EV... so much fun... silly fun, but fun nonetheless.

 

[960design]

I highly doubt you can get a 2023 Tesla Model 3 for £39k in the UK. Add about £20k onto the prices Americans pay and it’s more realistic.

How about you mosey on over to tesla dot com and see how much it would cost. Let us know.
£49k is what I see without any deductions or tax credits. Same car is about $40,000US ( kr 425.090 ) in Danmark. UK is pretty expensive! Hopefully you have good public transportation and do not need a car ( like in Danmark ).

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

How about you mosey on over to tesla dot com and see how much it would cost. Let us know.
£49k is what I see without any deductions or tax credits.

View attachment 2138553

Yep, £49k which is $20,259 more than the $39k you stated before. I said add about 20 grand so I wasn’t far off.

I can’t justify nearly 50 grand on a car mate lol. I would also need 2 vehicles for my household and right now I have no car loans at all. The most I’ve spent on a car is £25k. A Model 3 is also far too small for a family of 4 (2 young children).

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Hopefully you have good public transportation and do not need a car ( like in Danmark ).

Sadly not. The UK has some of the worst and most expensive public transportation in Europe. If I wanted to use public transport solely to get to work for 8am, I’d have to leave at 9pm the previous night and go via the capital (Cardiff). It wouldn’t be worth going home at the end of the day as I might as well stay on a bus and sleep at Cardiff central bus station. It really is that bad lol.

 

[960design]

Yep, £49k which is $20,259 more than the $39k you stated before. I said add about 20 grand so I wasn’t far off.

I can’t justify nearly 50 grand on a car mate lol. I would also need 2 vehicles for my household and right now I have no car loans at all. The most I’ve spent on a car is £25k.

I hear you.

I purchased a Tesla because:

• Cadillac would have to order the car I wanted
• it would have cost $15k over MSRP
• taken 3 months to arrive
• would have had to been brought in at a future unknown date to receive "chips" so the heated seats would work.

I politely told them to go F themselves and ordered a Tesla and saved the $15k and more due to fuel costs, and limited maintenance requirements. I also do not miss the cold morning gas station visits once a week. It's all the little things.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I hear you.

I purchased a Tesla because:

• Cadillac would have to order the car I wanted
• it would have cost $15k over MSRP
• taken 3 months to arrive
• would have had to been brought in at a future unknown date to receive "chips" so the heated seats would work.

I politely told them to go F themselves and ordered a Tesla and saved the $15k and more due to fuel costs, and limited maintenance requirements. I also do not miss the cold morning gas station visits once a week. It's all the little things.

I like preheating the cabin whilst I have breakfast. Who wants to defrost windows anymore?

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I hear you.

I purchased a Tesla because:

• Cadillac would have to order the car I wanted
• it would have cost $15k over MSRP
• taken 3 months to arrive
• would have had to been brought in at a future unknown date to receive "chips" so the heated seats would work.

I politely told them to go F themselves and ordered a Tesla and saved the $15k and more due to fuel costs, and limited maintenance requirements. I also do not miss the cold morning gas station visits once a week. It's all the little things.

I have no idea when i’ll get an EV but sadly there are no incentives (grants etc) to help motorists make the transition. When you look at how expensive cars like Tesla’s are compared to other countries, it makes people dubious about switching yet. I keep hearing people from the US and parts of Europe taking advantage of schemes yet we don’t seem to have any? They keep threatening us that we have to move to EV’s but the elephant in the room is the high cost right now. I haven’t got to worry about this too much for the next 7 years though so i’ll see how it goes. I’m not struggling to run the cars we have and they are paid off.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I have no idea when i’ll get an EV but sadly there are no incentives (grants etc) to help motorists make the transition. When you look at how expensive cars like Tesla’s are compared to other countries, it makes people dubious about switching yet. I keep hearing people from the US and parts of Europe taking advantage of schemes yet we don’t seem to have any? They keep threatening us that we have to move to EV’s but the elephant in the room is the high cost right now. I haven’t got to worry about this too much for the next 7 years though so i’ll see how it goes. I’m not struggling to run the cars we have and they are paid off.

There are incentives for company car drivers. But that doesn’t help you or me does it.
But the government has no money here at the moment, so providing incentives for EV drivers is way down its list. Heck from next year I’ll be paying more road tax than I used to on my Golf. Now that I don’t understand. Yes it’s right we pay tax, but it should not be more than ICE drivers.

 

[jz0309]

There are incentives for company car drivers. But that doesn’t help you or me does it.
But the government has no money here at the moment, so providing incentives for EV drivers is way down its list. Heck from next year I’ll be paying more road tax than I used to on my Golf. Now that I don’t understand. Yes it’s right we pay tax, but it should not be more than ICE drivers.

Here in the US it depends on the state you live in, they charge more in registration fees because with an EV they don’t get the tax that they are charging on gasoline, that seems to be the common argument.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

There are incentives for company car drivers. But that doesn’t help you or me does it.
But the government has no money here at the moment, so providing incentives for EV drivers is way down its list. Heck from next year I’ll be paying more road tax than I used to on my Golf. Now that I don’t understand. Yes it’s right we pay tax, but it should not be more than ICE drivers.

I used to think vehicle tax (non political term mods) was based on emissions as that is stated in the banding. However it’s clearly not based on that anymore and those who pay more than £40k for a car have 5 years of a £365 annual premium regardless of how efficient it is. It’s just a money grab and something else new EV owners will need to factor in on their purchase. You’re right there is no incentives unless you have a company car but that doesn’t help people like you or me. I think current EV owners need to look at the bigger picture before suggesting everybody should be making the switch. There’s a reason why the older generations make up a hefty chunk of the adoption demographic. Not a lot of people have a disposable income that allows them to buy £30k, £40k and £50k+ cars.

 

[quagmire]

I hear you.

I purchased a Tesla because:

• Cadillac would have to order the car I wanted
• it would have cost $15k over MSRP
• taken 3 months to arrive
• would have had to been brought in at a future unknown date to receive "chips" so the heated seats would work.

I politely told them to go F themselves and ordered a Tesla and saved the $15k and more due to fuel costs, and limited maintenance requirements. I also do not miss the cold morning gas station visits once a week. It's all the little things.

Guessing you were interested in the Lyriq?

It’s challenging and you may have to go out of state, but there are MSRP dealers out there.

Not EV related, but on the list at MacMulkin in NH for a Z06. MSRP, and they can ship it to you if you pay for it of course. The disgusting dealers are wanting $50K-$100K over MSRP for them.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I used to think vehicle tax (non political term mods) was based on emissions as that is stated in the banding. However it’s clearly not based on that anymore and those who pay more than £40k for a car have 5 years of a £365 annual premium regardless of how efficient it is. It’s just a money grab and something else new EV owners will need to factor in on their purchase. You’re right there is no incentives unless you have a company car but that doesn’t help people like you or me. I think current EV owners need to look at the bigger picture before suggesting everybody should be making the switch. There’s a reason why the older generations make up a hefty chunk of the adoption demographic. Not a lot of people have a disposable income that allows them to buy £30k, £40k and £50k+ cars.

I’d guess a high proportion of the EV’s on the road in the UK are company cars. Many others are leased. But yes that doesn’t help you or me.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I’d guess a high proportion of the EV’s on the road in the UK are company cars. Many others are leased. But yes that doesn’t help you or me.

That’s always my assumption whenever I see one to be honest. The majority of brand new cars on our roads aren’t owned by those driving them so I’d expect the same for EV’s. Polestars are the new BMW 3 Series of British roads as mostly driven by reps based on what I deal with at work.

 

[Analog Kid]

So true. My point was that electric cars are only locally clean. Fumes still can happen elsewhere. If you look at some overpowered battery cars with several hundred horsepowers installed being macho driven the entire "electric equals green"-mantra feels questionable to me.

It's much easier and more economical to regulate, scrub and maintain one big power plant in a city than thousands of individual power plants on wheels. Converting between forms of energy is also much more efficient when done at scale. Yes the vehicles themselves need to be manufactured and disposed of, and the math there is different for EVs than it is for ICEs, but the guidance is roughly the same-- there's a sweet spot between constant replacing to stay on top of the technology trends and keeping old, inefficient equipment online.

Somewhere there's probably been a study done on where the break even point is on environmental impact-- how many years of lower tailpipe emissions does it take to offset the emissions of changing vehicles.


As far as the macho EV crowd, I think that's missing the point. Electric is more green for everyone, including the macho crowd. There's at least two ways to reduce environmental impact-- one is to change behavior, the other is to change technology. As a society, we haven't been doing well on the first. If someone wants a high torque make-me-feel-like-a-man vehicle, they're going to buy one. It'll either be a massive displacement gas engine or an EV. Better that they buy the later. The fact that electric actually gives better performance in many cases than gas helps seal that deal.

Someone can correct me if I'm remembering my history wrong, and I know the history has been overwritten a few times, but my recollection is that the original Tesla team didn't set out to save the environment, the set out to make a high performance car. That's why they built it on the Lotus frame rather than a Fiesta.

This was also my point above about regenerative breaking in SUVs making them more tolerable. People are going to buy those cars even if they only commute to work in them. My rental car company forced me to "upgrade" from my intermediate sized car because they were out of vehicles. They suggested a Chevy Suburban. Turns out they also had a Toyota Sienna hybrid available which is also huge but has twice the city fuel economy and 50% better highway economy. That seems like a significant win even if we can't convince people to drive smaller vehicles.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Don’t forget that UK prices are on the road; it includes all taxes, duties, registration etc.

Plenty of people do buy outright. But yes plenty, too many get into debt for a car. Especially the salary sacrifice scheme is a disaster in waiting. But hey it enables people who otherwise shouldn’t be able to afford such cars to get the cars. At the cost of their pension, mortgage affordability, even redundancy pay if worst come to worst. It’s madness in my opinion.

There used to be incentives when they were less common. But yes it’s too late now in the UK. The tipping point has been reached, policy is set. New ICE car sales will be banned officially in 7 years and in practice they won’t be available sooner than that.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Coming to a dealership in 2025 apparently.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

So true. My point was that electric cars are only locally clean. Fumes still can happen elsewhere. If you look at some overpowered battery cars with several hundred horsepowers installed being macho driven the entire "electric equals green"-mantra feels questionable to me.

It's much easier and more economical to regulate, scrub and maintain one big power plant in a city than thousands of individual power plants on wheels. Converting between forms of energy is also much more efficient when done at scale. Yes the vehicles themselves need to be manufactured and disposed of, and the math there is different for EVs than it is for ICEs, but the guidance is roughly the same-- there's a sweet spot between constant replacing to stay on top of the technology trends and keeping old, inefficient equipment online.

Somewhere there's probably been a study done on where the break even point is on environmental impact-- how many years of lower tailpipe emissions does it take to offset the emissions of changing vehicles.


As far as the macho EV crowd, I think that's missing the point. Electric is more green for everyone, including the macho crowd. There's at least two ways to reduce environmental impact-- one is to change behavior, the other is to change technology. As a society, we haven't been doing well on the first. If someone wants a high torque make-me-feel-like-a-man vehicle, they're going to buy one. It'll either be a massive displacement gas engine or an EV. Better that they buy the later. The fact that electric actually gives better performance in many cases than gas helps seal that deal.

Someone can correct me if I'm remembering my history wrong, and I know the history has been overwritten a few times, but my recollection is that the original Tesla team didn't set out to save the environment, the set out to make a high performance car. That's why they built it on the Lotus frame rather than a Fiesta.

This was also my point above about regenerative breaking in SUVs making them more tolerable. People are going to buy those cars even if they only commute to work in them. My rental car company forced me to "upgrade" from my intermediate sized car because they were out of vehicles. They suggested a Chevy Suburban. Turns out they also had a Toyota Sienna hybrid available which is also huge but has twice the city fuel economy and 50% better highway economy. That seems like a significant win even if we can't convince people to drive smaller vehicles.

Very good points!

In my view the EV batteries of today is the primary stumbling block for EVs. These batteries are too expensive to build and to recycle, plus too heavy. Also, most of us listen to the advertisements from politicians and market sales relating to which vehicle is the future. In reality, the most economical way to reduce environmental pollution is to do it at incremental steps as follows:

The development of hybrid engines with greater thermal efficiency. For example, back in 2012 Toyota designed an 8-cylinder hybrid race-car engine that had a 40% thermal efficiency. The new 6-cylinder hybrid engines used in F1 race cars already are at a minimum of 40% thermal efficiency, and can produce in excess of 1,000HP aided by a small and lighter battery than the ones used in EV's. The use of batteries alone for propulsion is the primary reason for EV's to be so heavy. The power to weight ratio of a vehicle is just one of the factors related to the drive range of the vehicle as you can see at F1 and FE racing.

There are the most efficient internal combustion engines today:

学校という空間｜School　Communication

sthock.com

 

[Analog Kid]

Very good points!

In my view the EV batteries of today is the primary stumbling block for EVs. These batteries are too expensive to build and to recycle, plus too heavy. Also, most of us listen to the advertisements from politicians and market sales relating to which vehicle is the future. In reality, the most economical way to reduce environmental pollution is to do it at incremental steps as follows:

The development of hybrid engines with greater thermal efficiency. For example, back in 2012 Toyota designed an 8-cylinder hybrid race-car engine that had a 40% thermal efficiency. The new 6-cylinder hybrid engines used in F1 race cars already are at a minimum of 40% thermal efficiency, and can produce in excess of 1,000HP aided by a small and lighter battery than the ones used in EV's. The use of batteries alone for propulsion is the primary reason for EV's to be so heavy. The power to weight ratio of a vehicle is just one of the factors related to the drive range of the vehicle as you can see at F1 and FE racing.

I expect my next car will be electric, but part of the reason I'm not eager to replace what I have is because I think we're on the steep part of the technology curve right now. I do expect that the energy storage systems will improve quite a bit over the next few years.

The weight isn't all bad and it helps that it's low on the chassis keeping the center of gravity low, but accelerating still burns more energy than it needs to and decelerating doesn't recover enough.

There are the most efficient internal combustion engines today:

学校という空間｜School　Communication

sthock.com

The future:

I think the NHTSA would have something to say about that front bumper though... Don't want to get caught in a crosswalk in front of that guy.

 

[4sallypat]

I expect my next car will be electric, but part of the reason I'm not eager to replace what I have is because I think we're on the steep part of the technology curve right now. I do expect that the energy storage systems will improve quite a bit over the next few years.

The weight isn't all bad and it helps that it's low on the chassis keeping the center of gravity low, but accelerating still burns more energy than it needs to and decelerating doesn't recover enough.



The future:

I think the NHTSA would have something to say about that front bumper though... Don't want to get caught in a crosswalk in front of that guy.

I am an early EV adopter:

• 2018 PHEV (great training wheels before getting into a full BEV).
• 2022 Lightning EV truck
• 2023 Mustang Mach E EV crossover

Agree that all these first gen Lion batteries are crude by futuristic standards, but until a more efficient and weight saving tech is developed, I will be part of the beta testers.

 

[960design]

Guessing you were interested in the Lyriq?

CT5 V6 twin turbo

It’s challenging and you may have to go out of state, but there are MSRP dealers out there.

I used to be a car hauler. I contacted 30+ dealers within 4 states near me. No one could get the car in under 3 months, no one could sell it to me for less than $10,000 above MSRP. Birmingham, AL dealership was the most honest and did the best they could to make the sale.

Not EV related, but on the list at MacMulkin in NH for a Z06. MSRP, and they can ship it to you if you pay for it of course. The disgusting dealers are wanting $50K-$100K over MSRP for them.

Yep. That's why I purchased a Tesla. Ordered for it online with no issues or markup. Awaiting a Tesla Truck and in three years I will get the Roadster.

Roadster | Tesla

An all-electric vehicle, the Tesla Roadster is the quickest car in the world, with record-setting acceleration, range and performance. Reserve yours today.

www.tesla.com

 

[960design]

I like preheating the cabin whilst I have breakfast. Who wants to defrost windows anymore?

Right! No more waiting for about 2-3 minutes for the heater to blow hot air. Electric blows hot air immediately.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Right! No more waiting for about 2-3 minutes for the heater to blow hot air. Electric blows hot air immediately.

They are not features unique or exclusive to EV vehicles, ICE cars can do that as well.

 

[Tagbert]

They are not features unique or exclusive to EV vehicles, ICE cars can do that as well.

sure, but the EV does it via remote invocation and in a closed garage using mains power.

 

[Mega ST]

In colder countries, like Sweden, every ICE car has a power plug to keep the engine heated when parked. You are ready to go anytime.