Why do some continue using Microsoft Office on Mac?

[Phil77354]

I had Office 2019 and support was discontinued at the end of last month. I don't understand why you get updates still on a version you bought in 2018. What version is it?

It shows 2019.

 

[davidlv]

It shows 2019.

All support, including updates was discontinued for Office 2019 recently. See the official MS Office HP.
"

• Office 2019 for Mac reached the end of support on October 10, 2023 and will no longer receive updates."

Update history for Office for Mac - Office release notes

Provides IT Pros with information about the latest updates for Office for Mac, including links to download packages, and an update history

learn.microsoft.com

 

[Phil77354]

All support, including updates was discontinued for Office 2019 recently. See the official MS Office HP.
"

• Office 2019 for Mac reached the end of support on October 10, 2023 and will no longer receive updates."

Update history for Office for Mac - Office release notes

Provides IT Pros with information about the latest updates for Office for Mac, including links to download packages, and an update history

learn.microsoft.com

Interesting, thanks. Looks like my version will no longer be updated, my version is 16.78 and the latest is 16.79.1. May lead to me looking into upgrading my version at some point, but for now it works just fine.

I wouldn't have realized this otherwise. No notifications sent to me that i'm aware of.

Thanks for the information!

 

[davidlv]

Interesting, thanks. Looks like my version will no longer be updated, my version is 16.78 and the latest is 16.79.1. May lead to me looking into upgrading my version at some point, but for now it works just fine.

I wouldn't have realized this otherwise. No notifications sent to me that i'm aware of.

Thanks for the information!

I bought a key to Office 2021 yesterday. Install worked fine and it was only about 41 US dollars (Japanese version here, as I need support for the wide Japanese fonts (almost twice the width of US fonts. At that price, less than half of a yearly subscription to Microsoft 365, and thinking it will get support for 2 years or so, that isn't a bad deal. You may find the US version even cheaper now, 'cause the Japanese yen is rather weak, compared with the dollar.

 

[Wheel_D]

Holy Smokes, Throwing Nota Bene at this thread, which is challenged just comparing Google Dogs, Pages and Word! This is like throwing them into the Total Perspective Vortex... like "You might have thought Word was bloated and complex compared to Pages, but your petty notions of word processing are nothing, NOTHING, in the universe of genuine, grownup, academic authoring! Go play with your beads and blocks!"

I felt like I was doing okay as a pwer-user with Office and Scrivener, but Nota Bene made me feel like an underachiever.

Plus it ain't cheap. You gotta NEED Nota Bene to make it worth the buy-in.

Yes, Nota Bene does seem like quite the adventure, doesn’t it?

Have you tried it? (There’s a trial period.) Although Nota Bene isn’t specifically Mac-compatible, it is designed to run on Macs via WINE.

 

[Phil77354]

I bought a key to Office 2021 yesterday. Install worked fine and it was only about 41 US dollars (Japanese version here, as I need support for the wide Japanese fonts (almost twice the width of US fonts. At that price, less than half of a yearly subscription to Microsoft 365, and thinking it will get support for 2 years or so, that isn't a bad deal. You may find the US version even cheaper now, 'cause the Japanese yen is rather weak, compared with the dollar.

Thanks for sharing. At some point I will probably look into updating my Office version, at the present time since I'm not having any issues with the older version I think I'll continue with it!

 

[MacBH928]

As long as Office continue to work on the current OS , updates are not necessary. You will hardly use much of the new features.

If the software still works after Oct. 31 (without further updates) you can probably still use it for the rest of your life. That is 'a' definition of "lifetime" (but assumably not yours).

he said lifetime "subscription" which confused me

 

[davidlv]

As long as Office continue to work on the current OS , updates are not necessary. You will hardly use much of the new features.



he said lifetime "subscription" which confused me

Your statement "updates are not necessary" is very debatable. In addition to new or changed features or functions, the term "Updates" includes the vital security updates to counter the constant and increasing security threats we all face when connected to the internet. Just in case you haven't noticed, there are a lot of people in this world working from morning through the night - either willingly or as captive workers in scam holds, for lack of a better word - striving to cheat somebody out of their money. That is what we all expect to get with our "lifetime license", not just a working set of software applications. I personally don't "need" new features, although I will adapt to them if I feel they are useful. I have found that most "new" features are products of someone's imagination of necessary or useful, but that too can be very debatable.

 

[ipaqrat]

Yes, Nota Bene does seem like quite the adventure, doesn’t it?

Have you tried it? (There’s a trial period.) Although Nota Bene isn’t specifically Mac-compatible, it is designed to run on Macs via WINE.

Yeah, I used it, not as a long term daily driver, just evaluating it for a few weeks as use case solution on Windows. I understand the Mac+Crossover version has some unique features; however, the workgroup that commissioned the study uses Fusion VMs with Windows Enterprise, because Crossover has given us grief on hardened Macs. I have not yet confronted it on Apple's M or with ARM Windows.

 

[sracer]

Yes, Nota Bene does seem like quite the adventure, doesn’t it?

Have you tried it? (There’s a trial period.) Although Nota Bene isn’t specifically Mac-compatible, it is designed to run on Macs via WINE.

Nota Bene is indeed quite the tool, and given my needs, I could easily justify the cost. Kudos to them for retaining the perpetual license model and discounts for existing customers to upgrade. Not having a native Mac OS version makes this a non-starter for me unfortunately.

I use WINE on Linux and Mac OS for must-have apps that don't have native versions (primarily because I started using them when I was Windows-only) but I won't introduce more apps into my workflows that will start out using WINE.

As long as Office continue to work on the current OS , updates are not necessary. You will hardly use much of the new features.

I agree. I think many people would be surprised to learn just how compatible older versions of MS Office are with the latest version. Especially for home and small business use. Things get a little wobbly in the enterprise, but even then, only with the most advanced documents.

 

[MacBH928]

Your statement "updates are not necessary" is very debatable. In addition to new or changed features or functions, the term "Updates" includes the vital security updates to counter the constant and increasing security threats we all face when connected to the internet. Just in case you haven't noticed, there are a lot of people in this world working from morning through the night - either willingly or as captive workers in scam holds, for lack of a better word - striving to cheat somebody out of their money. That is what we all expect to get with our "lifetime license", not just a working set of software applications. I personally don't "need" new features, although I will adapt to them if I feel they are useful. I have found that most "new" features are products of someone's imagination of necessary or useful, but that too can be very debatable.

Maybe I am naive, but what security do you want in a word processor? My only understanding is that microsoft office documents–Specifically–has ability to launch some sort of a .exe or run a code that can be malicious. I do not think this is possible with other formats like ODF or .Numbers . Correct me if I am wrong.

Nota Bene is indeed quite the tool, and given my needs, I could easily justify the cost. Kudos to them for retaining the perpetual license model and discounts for existing customers to upgrade. Not having a native Mac OS version makes this a non-starter for me unfortunately.

I use WINE on Linux and Mac OS for must-have apps that don't have native versions (primarily because I started using them when I was Windows-only) but I won't introduce more apps into my workflows that will start out using WINE.

What does Nota Bene that other Word Processors can't do?

I also heard that LaTex is most capable and will produce 100% compatible document each time. If there is a GUI LaTex editor, shouldn't we be using this for a standard? If not such thing exist, then no one is up to learning how to "program" a text document.

 

[davidlv]

Maybe I am naive, but what security do you want in a word processor? My only understanding is that microsoft office documents–Specifically–has ability to launch some sort of a .exe or run a code that can be malicious. I do not think this is possible with other formats like ODF or .Numbers . Correct me if I am wrong.



What does Nota Bene that other Word Processors can't do?

I also heard that LaTex is most capable and will produce 100% compatible document each time. If there is a GUI LaTex editor, shouldn't we be using this for a standard? If not such thing exist, then no one is up to learning how to "program" a text document.

Naive is not the correct adjective here, perhaps uninformed is better. Your question, "what security do you want in a word processor?" can be answered simply, protection from malware in a file obtained from other users. Outlook gets updates often to fix security weak points or outright vulnerabilities. Excel and Powerpoint too get security updates quite often. Read the related Microsoft page, in order to see the constant update history. Most of the updates are security related, and some are features or function adjustments. Ignoring the fact that there are whole populations working night and day to get some scam working is more than naive, it borders on 'criminal'.

Update history for Office for Mac - Office release notes

Provides IT Pros with information about the latest updates for Office for Mac, including links to download packages, and an update history

learn.microsoft.com

 

[sracer]

Maybe I am naive, but what security do you want in a word processor? My only understanding is that microsoft office documents–Specifically–has ability to launch some sort of a .exe or run a code that can be malicious. I do not think this is possible with other formats like ODF or .Numbers . Correct me if I am wrong.



What does Nota Bene that other Word Processors can't do?

I also heard that LaTex is most capable and will produce 100% compatible document each time. If there is a GUI LaTex editor, shouldn't we be using this for a standard? If not such thing exist, then no one is up to learning how to "program" a text document.

Basically, it goes beyond word processing to include a document database and all of the benefits of having that all integrated. The ability to cross-reference documents and establish logical connections are valuable tool for research and content creation.

LaTex simply standardizes document formatting. The markup language to accomplish that is quite heavy… far more than IBM’s Script GML which was essentially the grandfather of LaTex.

By correctly using a word processor like Word or LibreOffice Writer, one can achieve the same level of consistency that LaTex offers. But a surprising number of people don’t know how.

 

[ipaqrat]

Maybe I am naive, but what security do you want in a word processor? My only understanding is that microsoft office documents–Specifically–has ability to launch some sort of a .exe or run a code that can be malicious. I do not think this is possible with other formats like ODF or .Numbers . Correct me if I am wrong..

Well, yeahhhh, sorry, wrong. As davidlv advised, MS Office is updated constantly, including many security-specific updates. But why? How could a Word Processor possibly pose a security risk? To summarize the IT Security issues at hand:

• MS Office files can permit macros in its native file formats. Macro exploits used to be quite the thing, but MS Office Macro security matured in the mid 2000's. You have to make several ridiculous decisions to get pwned strictly by macros these days.
• MS Office files will not allow executable code to be embedded, but it will allow embedding OTHER files such as JPEGS, PDFs and other Office files. JPEGS and PDF's are renowned for carrying malicious payloads.
• Any file format, even plain text, can contain the text of a link to malicious web sites and apps parked elsewhere on a PC, on a network, or on the internet. When MS Office processes files, it "helps" by making addresses clickable.
• MS files can also contain Visual Basic for Applications (VBA), Microsoft's API (Application Programming Interface) that allows reaching out to the underlying OS, and can enable other programs to contact Office apps and issue commands.
• Microsoft Silverlight (Microsoft's version of OS-independent mobile code, like Sun Microsystems JAVA) allows even more detailed (and devious) options for building applications.
• MS Office contains featues specifically designed to interact with databases and other online data sources, such as Sharepoint, OneDrive, clip art, "365" suite applets, and even more third party solutions.

When every code module is not correctly authored, or not correctly siloed into security subsystems, they form an ATTACK SURFACE with entry points, through which malicious actors sneak into OTHER parts of the operating system. Furthermore, malicious payloads can be dropped onto a PC in smaller pieces, then triggered later. Once triggered, the next goal will be to establish a persistent exploit with administrative permissions on the end point. Then, with command of multiple endpoints, more malware can be spread - and the cycle continues to attack other end points. This is referred to as LATERAL MOVEMENT.

MS Office aims to be the premier super-productivity suite, super interactive, super modular, super cross platform. It is so fiendishly complex, that it invites focused study by determined adversaries. Likewise Adobe Acrobat. Remember Flash - such a cesspit, that Apple blocked it entirely from iOS and from MacOS best they could. And considering browsers baked into an OS... Yep, ATTACK SURFACE.

And THEN, most software is shipped with dozens, if not hundreds of such faults. And it takes time to discover and fix them. Perhaps AI will be able to more precisely screen code for bugs, perhaps even inside sabotage by operatives who later hack endpoints through faults they introduced.

There is no scenario when it is OK to skip security updates, or encourage other users to ignore them. Sometimes we just have to reinvest and relearn to use advanced tools responsibly.

 

[Wheel_D]

Will Microsoft release a successor to Office 2021, or are they forcing a wholesale shift to their online offerings?

 

[Tagbert]

Will Microsoft release a successor to Office 2021, or are they forcing a wholesale shift to their online offerings?

When you say “online offering” are you thinking of the browser-based apps, or do you mean the Office 365 subscription license that provides ongoing upgrades to the locally installed apps? I use the latter and they are currently version 16.xx. Probably last updated a couple of weeks ago.

 

[MacBH928]

LaTex simply standardizes document formatting. The markup language to accomplish that is quite heavy… far more than IBM’s Script GML which was essentially the grandfather of LaTex.

By correctly using a word processor like Word or LibreOffice Writer, one can achieve the same level of consistency that LaTex offers. But a surprising number of people don’t know how.

What do you mean standardizes document formatting? this is a good thing right? we all want a standard. What is the advantage of LaTex any way that people insist on using it for?

Well, yeahhhh, sorry, wrong. As davidlv advised, MS Office is updated constantly, including many security-specific updates. But why? How could a Word Processor possibly pose a security risk? To summarize the IT Security issues at hand:

• MS Office files can permit macros in its native file formats. Macro exploits used to be quite the thing, but MS Office Macro security matured in the mid 2000's. You have to make several ridiculous decisions to get pwned strictly by macros these days.
• MS Office files will not allow executable code to be embedded, but it will allow embedding OTHER files such as JPEGS, PDFs and other Office files. JPEGS and PDF's are renowned for carrying malicious payloads.
• Any file format, even plain text, can contain the text of a link to malicious web sites and apps parked elsewhere on a PC, on a network, or on the internet. When MS Office processes files, it "helps" by making addresses clickable.
• MS files can also contain Visual Basic for Applications (VBA), Microsoft's API (Application Programming Interface) that allows reaching out to the underlying OS, and can enable other programs to contact Office apps and issue commands.
• Microsoft Silverlight (Microsoft's version of OS-independent mobile code, like Sun Microsystems JAVA) allows even more detailed (and devious) options for building applications.
• MS Office contains featues specifically designed to interact with databases and other online data sources, such as Sharepoint, OneDrive, clip art, "365" suite applets, and even more third party solutions.

When every code module is not correctly authored, or not correctly siloed into security subsystems, they form an ATTACK SURFACE with entry points, through which malicious actors sneak into OTHER parts of the operating system. Furthermore, malicious payloads can be dropped onto a PC in smaller pieces, then triggered later. Once triggered, the next goal will be to establish a persistent exploit with administrative permissions on the end point. Then, with command of multiple endpoints, more malware can be spread - and the cycle continues to attack other end points. This is referred to as LATERAL MOVEMENT.

MS Office aims to be the premier super-productivity suite, super interactive, super modular, super cross platform. It is so fiendishly complex, that it invites focused study by determined adversaries. Likewise Adobe Acrobat. Remember Flash - such a cesspit, that Apple blocked it entirely from iOS and from MacOS best they could. And considering browsers baked into an OS... Yep, ATTACK SURFACE.

And THEN, most software is shipped with dozens, if not hundreds of such faults. And it takes time to discover and fix them. Perhaps AI will be able to more precisely screen code for bugs, perhaps even inside sabotage by operatives who later hack endpoints through faults they introduced.

There is no scenario when it is OK to skip security updates, or encourage other users to ignore them. Sometimes we just have to reinvest and relearn to use advanced tools responsibly.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I see now. I was thinking more of something like Apple Pages which is more simpler and unable to do all those code executions.

I thought MS Silverlight was depricated?

Its scary to think you need a "live" software that is constantly updated when "download once, use forever" was the standard in the 90s, yet again, in the 90s we were not tied to the internet 24/7 and security was waaaaaay worse.

Will Microsoft release a successor to Office 2021, or are they forcing a wholesale shift to their online offerings?

Since all other rent-a-software businesses have withdrawn their licensing options, I am guessing they will keep the license model. Asking for $30/license will make them a lot of money specially in the education market. I am thinking college students are way more willing to pay $30 one time for 4 year college than $10/month. Then you have schools, home users, small businesses.

I think in the main grand scheme of things MS is more concerned to keep their proprietary format the standard instead of making a slight of a window for any one to opt for another option.

 

[sracer]

What do you mean standardizes document formatting? this is a good thing right? we all want a standard. What is the advantage of LaTex any way that people insist on using it for?

Yes. Standardizing document formatting (consistent document elements like headers, lists, footnotes, etc.) is a good thing.
As for why many prefer LaTeX, there are a variety of reasons... some are technical, others are not.

LaTeX is all text. There are no hidden codes to control a word processor to do things like indenting, bolding, underlining, changing fonts, etc. It is a programming language of sorts for creating documents. The core of LaTex is a standard, but there are extensions for support for specialized use cases.

LaTeX transcends operating systems and computing platforms. If you have a text editor then you have what you need for creating documents. In some environments this is helpful for team collaboration where documents will need to be modified by different team members and document integrity needs to be ensured.

The problem (IMO) with LaTeX is as I said, it is too "heavy". The markup tokens (keywords) and syntax interfere with the readability of the source.

For example (the following formatted text and how it is coded in LaTeX)

Some of the greatest discoveries in science were made by accident.

Some of the \textbf{greatest} discoveries in \underline{science} were made by \textbf{\textit{accident}}.

For this reason, I never liked SGML and other document markup languages that followed like LaTeX.

That changed with the introduction of Markdown. Same principle, different implementation. Markdown is limited in the complexity of documents it can create, but the tokens and syntax are very light... just a few punctuation marks or characters.

I'm a fan of Markdown. It's one of the reasons why I shifted my personal knowledgebase to Joplin.

 

[Eric Best]

Has anyone here used Papyrus Author word processor / database? What is your experience?

 

[MacBH928]

Yes. Standardizing document formatting (consistent document elements like headers, lists, footnotes, etc.) is a good thing.
As for why many prefer LaTeX, there are a variety of reasons... some are technical, others are not.

LaTeX is all text. There are no hidden codes to control a word processor to do things like indenting, bolding, underlining, changing fonts, etc. It is a programming language of sorts for creating documents. The core of LaTex is a standard, but there are extensions for support for specialized use cases.

LaTeX transcends operating systems and computing platforms. If you have a text editor then you have what you need for creating documents. In some environments this is helpful for team collaboration where documents will need to be modified by different team members and document integrity needs to be ensured.

The problem (IMO) with LaTeX is as I said, it is too "heavy". The markup tokens (keywords) and syntax interfere with the readability of the source.

For example (the following formatted text and how it is coded in LaTeX)

Some of the greatest discoveries in science were made by accident.

Some of the \textbf{greatest} discoveries in \underline{science} were made by \textbf{\textit{accident}}.

For this reason, I never liked SGML and other document markup languages that followed like LaTeX.

That changed with the introduction of Markdown. Same principle, different implementation. Markdown is limited in the complexity of documents it can create, but the tokens and syntax are very light... just a few punctuation marks or characters.

I'm a fan of Markdown. It's one of the reasons why I shifted my personal knowledgebase to Joplin.

I see. But I am liking the idea of standardization. If there is a GUI word processor that does the LaTex formatting in the background, then any document can be word processor agnostic. This is like the PDF of documents.

how does markdown deal with TAB stops. I find this feature absolutely necessary to create professional looking documents

 

[sracer]

I see. But I am liking the idea of standardization. If there is a GUI word processor that does the LaTex formatting in the background, then any document can be word processor agnostic. This is like the PDF of documents.

how does markdown deal with TAB stops. I find this feature absolutely necessary to create professional looking documents

Unless you will be collaborating with people who use LaTeX, you don't need a word processor that uses/generates LaTeX. The Document Foundation has established an open standard for documents. LibreOffice Writer and other word processing programs support ODF. That is a sufficient implementation of standardization.

Some will point to Microsoft Word's mangling of ODF files as "proof" that it isn't a standard. But that is due to Microsoft's unwillingness to fully embrace an open standard and NOT because of any deficiencies in the ODF standard.

Back in the day, there was a common saying regarding Microsoft and its competition, "DOS ain't done until Lotus won't run". Lotus 1-2-3 was THE spreadsheet program of the time (unseating VisiCalc) and Microsoft was pushing Excel as an alternative. Some say that the quote didn't reflect the reality of Microsoft at the time, but for those of us dinosaurs that were around then know full well that it was true. Microsoft would repeat that in the web browser space.

Regarding tab stops in markdown, there is no easy and simple way to implement that in the markdown syntaxes that I'm familiar with. As flexible as markdown is, it isn't intended to be a proper (full) replacement for something like LaTeX.

Markdown is a very "light" markup-like syntax that is easy and quick to get document formatting without being distracted by layout. Document elements like headers, lists, and quoted text are formatting... tab stops, columns, headers/footers, text flowing around images are layout-related.

My use of markdown is for my notes, personal knowledgebase. I get a thought and I can quickly jot it down in a markdown environment (like Joplin) and have it formatted with little effort.

For documents that I produce... whether they'll be converted to PDF for electronic distribution, or sent to the publisher to be printed, I use LibreOffice Writer.

When I need to use a note (in markdown) in a document, then I can copy and paste the preview into a word processor and have the document's paragraph and character styles take over.

 

[MacBH928]

Some will point to Microsoft Word's mangling of ODF files as "proof" that it isn't a standard. But that is due to Microsoft's unwillingness to fully embrace an open standard and NOT because of any deficiencies in the ODF standard.

I 100% guarantee MS is sabotaging files on purpose to make the illusion that their proprietary format is the only one that is compatible and force everyone into it. I have been using Office lately and its the only app that won't play nice with others.

I am just thinking of the MS Manager's face when he tells his employees to make the Office incompatible with other formats on purpose.

For documents that I produce... whether they'll be converted to PDF for electronic distribution, or sent to the publisher to be printed, I use LibreOffice Writer.

Interesting choice of a word processor on a Mac forum. I am only going to guess this is because you run FreeBSD IIRC. I tried LibreOffice on Mac, its ok but feels a bit buggy and heavy. Tried it on Linux and felt like a "native" app.

 

[sracer]

Interesting choice of a word processor on a Mac forum. I am only going to guess this is because you run FreeBSD IIRC. I tried LibreOffice on Mac, its ok but feels a bit buggy and heavy. Tried it on Linux and felt like a "native" app.

I have many devices running a variety of OSes, but FreeBSD isn't one of them. 😆

Early on, LibreOffice didn't have good performance. But it has rapidly improved and isn't an issue anymore (at least for me). My only complaint is that it doesn't look and feel like a native app.

When I need to produce documents that will be printed in-house, my word processor of choice is Pages. It's quick and nimble and really is a blending of word processor and desktop publishing. If it was cross-platform, I'd use it even more.

I try to avoid being locked in to any OS platform or hardware vendor. As it is now, Pages, Pixelmator, and iMovie are the only Apple-exclusive apps that I use on a regular basis. Over the next 12 months, I'll be working to have cross-platform alternatives.

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

I see. But I am liking the idea of standardization. If there is a GUI word processor that does the LaTex formatting in the background, then any document can be word processor agnostic. This is like the PDF of documents.

how does markdown deal with TAB stops. I find this feature absolutely necessary to create professional looking documents

There is "a GUI word processor that does the LaTex formatting in the background", it's called LyX, and it's available for Mac, Windows and pretty well all distros of Linux including Raspberry Pi OS.

You still need to install LaTeX as LyX converts its own document to LaTeX and then hands it over to your LaTeX installation (TeXLive, MiKTeX, etc) for processing.

While it is a WYSIWYG word processor, it saves its documents in plain text so there's no problem with portability.

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

I know I'm late to this discussion, but there are two reasons to use LibreOffice over Word.

The first is that ODT is a far more stable document format than DOCX, and especially DOC.

Second, LibreOffice handles multi-file documents with ease, so much so that you can download its own 400+ page manuals in multi-file documents. Word's multi-file documents are a rapid path to insanity. I know, I have tried.

You can write your document in ODT with LibreOffice, then save as DOCX when you are finished. If you need ultra-conservative MS Word document formatting, then you can open it up in MS Word and save as again.