I really like this idea! A "Viper Pit" where you throw in a photograph, for unbridled and unrestrained constructive criticism and feedback/guidance. I was a member of a photographic forum with exactly this special thread/sub-forum, but, alas, that forum has long since withered and died!
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Why do you not post any images here?
- Thread starter Alexander.Of.Oz
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No, I think we just all simultaneously decided to lay into someones image one time and they got upset... so we stopped
No, I think we just all simultaneously decided to lay into someones image one time and they got upset... so we stopped
Delivering and receiving critique is not easy. But I think it’s worth trying if we succeed in it on this forum.
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Which one do you think is better, a monthly critique thread to keep it shorter, or one thread to rule them all?
There's one there now. Alex created one earlier and he and I went a few rounds on each other.... yeah, an image that got about 15 ego boosts previously is lying in tatters in that thread now...
Love it... it is good to know that people spot the same issues with an image as you do yourself - helps you be more self aware
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Lets try the one thread to rule them all for now.... lets see how we get on..
For what it's worth, I've spent a fair bit of time on four or five photography forums over the past decade or so, not including this one. Someone already posted that the group here is more "laid back," and I agree with that. If it doesn't make for a more welcoming environment, it's at least not a hostile one, which many photography forums tend to devolve into.
I don't think I've posted a single photo here, for a few reasons:
1) I like to check this forum when I come to MacRumors, but I'm overall not that active on the forum in general;
2) Being a relatively new father, the overwhelming majority of my photography these days is of family. I admit that it makes me a bit uncomfortable to post those photos outside of a private album.
I don't think that worry over criticism factors into it; I don't think it ever has whenever I've shared a photo. I've seen people trash absolutely amazing photos, and while I suppose the tone of some of the criticisms could be hurtful to me (were they directed at my own photo), seeing that makes me realize that appreciation of photography - like most art - is a very subjective thing. That makes it easier to not take it so personally.
I don't think I've posted a single photo here, for a few reasons:
1) I like to check this forum when I come to MacRumors, but I'm overall not that active on the forum in general;
2) Being a relatively new father, the overwhelming majority of my photography these days is of family. I admit that it makes me a bit uncomfortable to post those photos outside of a private album.
I don't think that worry over criticism factors into it; I don't think it ever has whenever I've shared a photo. I've seen people trash absolutely amazing photos, and while I suppose the tone of some of the criticisms could be hurtful to me (were they directed at my own photo), seeing that makes me realize that appreciation of photography - like most art - is a very subjective thing. That makes it easier to not take it so personally.
Thanks for posting and congrats on the young family. Point 2 very relevant. I try not to post pictures of my kids on social media too.
Open Camera App. Tap the circle button. There. You've taken a photo.
LOL
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Indeed, you all are probably the "like"-est folks I've seen on any of these forums, and it's encouraging to see that and to get feedback through the contests and other threads. Seems like a tight-knit bunch of folks here, and these things helped me to feel like a part of the group.
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FWIW, that hasn't at all been my experience in this sub-forum. I can see why it would look that way if one was inclined to hang back and watch other people talk and share, but I've noticed that from the time I started posting here, I was included and felt like a part of it.
To me that's the big difference, because cliques tend to exclude on the basis of a false sense of superiority, and they tend to demean, devalue, and belittle those who are outside of their group.
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"That which has been is that which will be,
And that which has been done is that which will be done.
So there is nothing new under the sun."
- Ecclesiates 1:9 (NASB)
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IMO it is a whole lot better. A lot of people seem to think that it's okay to be rude to others just because they're online and don't have to look someone in the eye when they say mean and ugly things. I don't really see that happening much here.
BTW, Canon clearly rules
(JK, I've never actually owned a Canon, had a Nikon previously)
BTW, Canon clearly rules
HASSELBLAD!
BTW, I completely agree with your post. I've only been posting here a relatively short amount of time, both compared to my amount of time on MR and in photography as a hobby. Still, though, I felt welcome right away.
Also, I do get to have fun being a Hasselblad snob now that I have one
. I've been shooting the snot out of it, even though it's just a lowly little 500C.
HASSELBLAD!
BTW, I completely agree with your post. I've only been posting here a relatively short amount of time, both compared to my amount of time on MR and in photography as a hobby. Still, though, I felt welcome right away.
Also, I do get to have fun being a Hasselblad snob now that I have one
Lowly and Hasselblad cannot appear in the same sentence unless you are talking the rebadged sony variants they did a few years ago.
A 500c is a thing of beauty. You can be as much of a snob as you want... We can handle it...
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What about the one that snaps onto the back of one of the Motorola cell phones?
I do have to admit that I'm rather fond of my 500C. My 80mm is in need of a trip to "the master" (David Odess) as the slow speeds are dead on it. I've been cautioned, too, that he has one of the last major stocks of Synchro-Compur parts and that when they're gone, he won't be able to do major service on them any more.
I've been advised to shop for newer CF series lenses for a couple of reasons, and one of those is that the shutters are a bit more reliable and also can be fixed. At the same time, someone cautioned me that the Prontor shutters tend to give out without warning while Pronto-Compurs usually give you plenty of time.
My C lenses are quite old in terms of the V system timeline-they all came from the same owner, and as best as I can tell he bought the body, one film back, and the 80mm in 1961. He then added one lens a year until 1964. After that, he pretty much kept things the same aside from buying an A12 back when they came out in 1970. I doubt they've ever been serviced, but then I don't think they were used much either. I did the light seals in both backs(an amazingly easy job) but my 12 back overlaps frames occasionally and needs some attention.
Also, on the lenses, it's hard to beat the aesthetics of chrome C lenses on the older chrome-trimmed bodies. Mine are too old to be T* multicoated, but as long as I use a hood they are fine. The same hood fits and works on the 80mm, 150mm, and 250mm. The 50mm takes a Series VIII filter(or maybe Series IX)-the camera came with an ancient Kodak screw-in hood that works fine on that lens. I do need to dig up a step ring to take a Series VIII to a 77mm or so, as things like polarizers are not only difficult to find in Series VIII but also a royal pain to use in any series filter mounting. Fortunately, I do have a B+W Hasselblad-branded polarizer in Bay 50 for the other lenses, although lately I've been using a Bay 50-55mm ring and a Hoya "Moose" polarizer.
I visit the forums everyday, mostly, i 'like' the photo's but sometimes i make comments. I do not feel that i am in any way qualified/experienced/good enough to criticise other's photo's. Also, i work full time (like most others i would've thought) and i don't get the time to get out and use my camera as often as i would like. When i do some photography i usually do share an image but because i am useless at photography, very few of my pictures are forum worthy - as you have seen from my previous photo posts, therefore i just look but don't touch. (so to speak!) although, i do appreciate genuine feedback, for example, MollyC, recently commented on one my pictures and gave me good advice about PP.
When i first came on here several years ago, the forum was full of good useful critique of all sorts of photos, good or bad, that, to me, was very useful because i learnt alot from the comments, hints and tips, sadly, this seems not happen so much now, it now seems to be a place where 'virtual friends' exchange thoughts and have some fun, there are a few that post photo's regularly and i really look forward to seeing their pictures both on here and on Flickr, etc... but there are also some that make frivolous quips that are usually just a way of upping their status/post count, i am not interested in that, merely seeing good photos is enough for me i don't feel the need to comment on them if i can just 'like' them. Further, the beauty of a photo is surely in the eye of the beholder, so, what right have i to criticise just because its not my cup of tea.
I am the sort of person who, sadly, likes the idea of being of a good photographer but doesn't want to actually put in the effort to be one. I think i am called a fair weather photographer. The phrase 'all the gear - no idea' springs to mind. Is there such a thing a lazy pro photographer, because if there is, there may still be hope for me!
The main thing is that i don't think my pictures are good enough, so why on earth would i post them for others to shoot down, maybe if was better at it and had more time to get better at it, i would post more this, in turn would get more comments/tips which i could try out and get better but for now, i'm afraid i am satisfied with just looking at some wonderful pictures and making the occasional post.
Oh, and by the way, there really are some wonderful photos on here from some fantastic photographers - including you.
So, in answer to your question, I think it is good to watch and learn and that it isn't always necessary to comment but most importantly, i am a lazy b****r.
I have just seen the other forum 'critics corner' now thats what i was talking about, that is an excellent place to post (then sit down in a dark room) and learn from the comments. I'll be posting there asap. Excellent forum Alex, well done.
When i first came on here several years ago, the forum was full of good useful critique of all sorts of photos, good or bad, that, to me, was very useful because i learnt alot from the comments, hints and tips, sadly, this seems not happen so much now, it now seems to be a place where 'virtual friends' exchange thoughts and have some fun, there are a few that post photo's regularly and i really look forward to seeing their pictures both on here and on Flickr, etc... but there are also some that make frivolous quips that are usually just a way of upping their status/post count, i am not interested in that, merely seeing good photos is enough for me i don't feel the need to comment on them if i can just 'like' them. Further, the beauty of a photo is surely in the eye of the beholder, so, what right have i to criticise just because its not my cup of tea.
I am the sort of person who, sadly, likes the idea of being of a good photographer but doesn't want to actually put in the effort to be one. I think i am called a fair weather photographer. The phrase 'all the gear - no idea' springs to mind. Is there such a thing a lazy pro photographer, because if there is, there may still be hope for me!
The main thing is that i don't think my pictures are good enough, so why on earth would i post them for others to shoot down, maybe if was better at it and had more time to get better at it, i would post more this, in turn would get more comments/tips which i could try out and get better but for now, i'm afraid i am satisfied with just looking at some wonderful pictures and making the occasional post.
Oh, and by the way, there really are some wonderful photos on here from some fantastic photographers - including you.
So, in answer to your question, I think it is good to watch and learn and that it isn't always necessary to comment but most importantly, i am a lazy b****r.
I have just seen the other forum 'critics corner' now thats what i was talking about, that is an excellent place to post (then sit down in a dark room) and learn from the comments. I'll be posting there asap. Excellent forum Alex, well done.
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I visit the forums everyday, mostly, i 'like' the photo's but sometimes i make comments. I do not feel that i am in any way qualified/experienced/good enough to criticise other's photo's. Also, i work full time (like most others i would've thought) and i don't get the time to get out and use my camera as often as i would like. When i do some photography i usually do share an image but because i am useless at photography, very few of my pictures are forum worthy - as you have seen from my previous photo posts, therefore i just look but don't touch. (so to speak!) although, i do appreciate genuine feedback, for example, MollyC, recently commented on one my pictures and gave me good advice about PP.
When i first came on here several years ago, the forum was full of good useful critique of all sorts of photos, good or bad, that, to me, was very useful because i learnt alot from the comments, hints and tips, sadly, this seems not happen so much now, it now seems to be a place where 'virtual friends' exchange thoughts and have some fun, there are a few that post photo's regularly and i really look forward to seeing their pictures both on here and on Flickr, etc... but there are also some that make frivolous quips that are usually just a way of upping their status/post count, i am not interested in that, merely seeing good photos is enough for me i don't feel the need to comment on them if i can just 'like' them. Further, the beauty of a photo is surely in the eye of the beholder, so, what right have i to criticise just because its not my cup of tea.
I am the sort of person who, sadly, likes the idea of being of a good photographer but doesn't want to actually put in the effort to be one. I think i am called a fair weather photographer. The phrase 'all the gear - no idea' springs to mind. Is there such a thing a lazy pro photographer, because if there is, there may still be hope for me!
The main thing is that i don't think my pictures are good enough, so why on earth would i post them for others to shoot down, maybe if was better at it and had more time to get better at it, i would post more this, in turn would get more comments/tips which i could try out and get better but for now, i'm afraid i am satisfied with just looking at some wonderful pictures and making the occasional post.
Oh, and by the way, there really are some wonderful photos on here from some fantastic photographers - including you.
So, in answer to your question, I think it is good to watch and learn and that it isn't always necessary to comment but most importantly, i am a lazy b****r.
I have just seen the other forum 'critics corner' now thats what i was talking about, that is an excellent place to post (then sit down in a dark room) and learn from the comments. I'll be posting there asap. Excellent forum Alex, well done.
I can relate to your comments. I have posted a few really nice shots and a lot of "that didn't work" stuff. And with my limited amount of time to develop my skills and style, again, I understand your point of view quite well.
We all react differently from "constructive criticism" (in quotes, because SOMETIMES it can be more critical than constructive, though I have never personally experienced this here). With that said, I have found this forum to be quite welcoming and have experienced a great amount of encouragement. Many of us were taught as children that if we cannot say something good/encouraging/uplifting, that we should just not speak... and I have seen a lot of that kind of behavior here, as well... forum members will "like" photos and post positive comments, with very little negative commentary...
Additionally, there are a number of long time members/posters in the photography areas of MR... and with that long time tenure comes a certain camaraderie and the inevitable good natured ribbing... some inside joking, as well - not in the sense of exclusivity and cliquish behavior as much as just people that have interacted together for a good period of time.
Finally, let me say that the drive behind my photography is to capture moments and images from my life... I take photos for myself and my family to enjoy and to remember the past events in my life. I am pretty comfortable saying that I have managed to do that quite well, albeit, not necessarily with images that others would admire, appreciate or identify as "artistic".
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I think it is sometimes hard to be negative without offending someone, and in todays society it isnt difficult to offend, but if we can't accept genuine and honest criticism we should really ask in the first place. I don't think telling a poster their photo is 'rubbish' per se would be considered genuine and honest by anybody but to say 'i think it could be better if you did this or that' would be.
Most people would react positively to negative criticism if it is honest and genuine. Negative criticism is what helps us grow. Positive criticism just boosts our ego, we do all like our shots to be liked.
I enjoy reading the witty banter on here and haven't ever noticed any cliques, but again, even to each other, there is rarely any negative constructive comments, usually they are appreciative and pleasant comments. This makes for a really friendly environment and should not be discouraged in any way. Amusing banter is something we all enjoy.
I echo your comments on 'drive' absolutely and also your sentiment. My photos, to me, are great not because they are good but because of the memories they hold for my family and I.
If i take a landscape shot, we can remember the day we were there etc... but wouldn't it be great if we posted it on here and people said, 'hey, it might be better if you did do this or you didn't do that, have you tried using a 'widget' of some sort; or maybe questioning why we chose to shoot from that angle and not another, etc... Now that would be constructive and not in the least bit negative.
By the way you've spelt 'behaviour' wrong!!!
I think this is an interesting take on the site, though not sure I agree with all of your points.
An interesting "alternative" title for the thread would have been: "Why *do* you post any images here?". We've seen some answers to that question as well.
I've enjoyed reading the comments in the thread, though your's stuck out to me and prompted me to post a reply.
What is the value of this sub-forum? What are people looking for here? Again, comments have somewhat addressed these questions.
There are many different photographers who contribute here, ranging in skill/experience from people just starting out to experienced professionals. The forum is somewhat fluid as mentioned before catering to both groups and everyone in between. Not sure what the mix is on a percentage basis, but my gut tells me it's skewed more to the "beginner" end of the spectrum and not the "professional" end. The regulars tend to fall more into the "experienced" end of the curve because they are regulars and often have more experience (some professional).
I think there are stages people often go through along their photographic journey. Not linear for everyone and possible to stop at any stage.
(1) I love taking pics with my phone camera but I'm not happy with them. May not be able to identify what is specifically wrong with them (more often the case than not, but that is totally normal). Even though my phone camera received high ratings (and might be why I chose it over other models), my photos aren't what I want. The obvious answer is that I need a "real" or "dedicated" camera. A thread gets started in the forum along the lines of "I'm not a photographer and don't intend on becoming a photographer, I want something cheap that isn't complicated to use that will do everything better than what my phone does". Replies offer suggestions.
(2) Okay, I now have a dedicated camera but I'm still not happy with my pics. Did I make a poor gear choice? Maybe I need a more advanced camera that is "better"? A micro 4/3 or crop sensor or DSLR. Something with interchangeable lenses. So another round of starting a thread asking for advice on a purchase. I still want something cheap as I'm not a professional. But the problem with my images is still a gear problem.
(3) Now we are talking. I have a real camera. Happy with some of my images (though they don't seem to get the upvotes that other images do). Must still be a gear issue. Maybe I need to buy faster lenses to blur out the background? Maybe I need to buy primes instead of zoom lenses since DxOMark rates them higher. Maybe I need a professional zoom rather than the consumer zoom I have since it is rated higher on DxOMark. Maybe I need a more advanced body that has better dynamic range. Or a larger ISO range. Or faster frames per second. Or a full frame sensor. Usually at this point people have started to get a better sense of the things that actually matter in photography--choice of subject, composition, light, exposure. But there is often still an emphasis on gear being the underlying problem. So perhaps another forum thread started asking for gear advice.
(4) The next stage involves actually becoming a photographer. I have all the gear, so that can't be the problem (though GAS--gear acquisition syndrome--can be on ongoing obsession). Up to this point I think it's easy to assume that photography is easy--that what separates "good" images from "my" images is just a matter of gear. If I only had the right/best camera. If I only had the right/best lenses. At some point the rubber meets the road. Either you can afford "the best" and have a come-to-Jesus moment where you realize you still aren't happy with your images or you decide to work with what you have and start to really think about why you aren't happy with your images. Or you give up (which might have happened at (3) above).
While it might have happened earlier, you start realizing that the problem with your images isn't a gear problem, it's a photographer problem. Things like technique matter. Composition matters. Seeing the whole frame and not just the subject. Starting to pay attention to the background when you compose. Thinking about depth of field and choosing the right aperture. Often still thinking that I'm not a real photographer and want things to be simple. I don't want to lug around a lot of gear. My images are better (and getting more upvotes!). I am putting in more effort in post which is also helping my images. I'm mostly happy with where I am at (and I'm perhaps a little embarrassed by some of my earlier posted images).
(5) Okay, while I'm happy overall with my images I feel like I've hit a wall. There are images I want to create that I just can't seem to get shooting handheld in available light. Now accepting the hassle of using a tripod. Taking the plunge and deciding that it matters for what I want to shoot to learn to use external flash (possibly earlier being turned off by pop-up flash or on-camera flash). Perhaps purchasing "specialty" lenses. In general gear purchases at this point tend to involve an answer to a specific problem that your current gear can't address. It's not a generic "I want my images to be better". At this stage you are comfortable with the traditional photographic "rules" and you don't have to think about them as much. Still learning new techniques but it's no longer about the gear in a general sense, but tailoring gear to your actual needs. Also getting a more advanced understanding of processing images in post. New forum threads at this point tend to be very specific.
(6) [Going to leave this blank as everything I wrote seemed pretentious and annoying.]
The point of all of this is to say that people have very different needs depending on where they are at as a photographer. Sometimes people really need gear advice (because it isn't an insignificant chunk of change to get into the game and can get out of control very quickly). Sometimes people need an "atta boy" bit of encouragement to keep them engaged and not just say "to hell with it". Some people want/need helpful advice along the way that is tailored to where they are currently at. This may involve comments specifically related to an image or general examples outlining shooting technique or processing in post.
Creating compelling images can be *hard*. There is a very steep learning curve that requires dedication and time. Ultimately not a gear question, but that can serve as a path to get to the things that really are important. There is a saying in medicine that "good clinical judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor clinical judgement". This applies to photography.
My ultimate standard when viewing any photograph is: how does it make me feel? Does it evoke a visceral response in me? Is it visually interesting? Is there a message? Does the composition and light reinforce the message or are there elements which detract from the overall impact of the image?
However, I don't expect every image posted on this site to be phenomenal (in fact my own often (usually??) aren't). But that's fine. This isn't meant to be a place to view phenomenal photos (though there are some phenomenal photos posted here). It's a place where people of varied skill levels share their work, ask questions, get feedback, and offer advice.
I try to evaluate every image or every forum post by thinking about the poster and what is going to be helpful for them. Sometimes I upvote. Sometimes I add a comment. Sometimes I respond to a thread. Sometimes I start a thread. Sometimes I lurk. But it's always thinking about: do I have anything useful to offer the poster and how can I frame my comments in a way that will prove helpful to them (or others who are "lurking").
I think the value of this sub-forum lies in it's ability to generally offer something for everyone, in a way that is usually friendly and helpful. Certainly not perfect. But better than any other photography forum I have visited.
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I truly appreciated your thought and genuineness of response. The idea of stages people go through is an interesting one. I'm sure it applies to most, but not everyone. Most people do tend to buy bigger and better when they can't achieve what they want in any regard.
I have photo's taken with my very first camera that still blow my socks off, and that was a bottom of the line DSLR kit with the two cheap lenses included. It did not have spot metering, but I still made it work. I snaffled it for about $400 I think, when there was a special deal on fleabay back in 2012. However, I did do a course in photography quickly after buying it which taught you how to use the camera well and manually, so I had an advantage over the weekend warriors out there in being able to achieve a technically good image.
What I'm trying to get at in this regard is that good images, both engrossing and technically proficient can be taken with lowly equipment. It's not necessary for people to evolve up through better and better equipment to be able to take better imagery. Some, like myself are limited by financial constraints and don't have the luxury to be able to do this at all. Some, don't see the need to do it for other reasons, such as environmental ethics, saving finances, etc...
Within my Mindful Photography groups, I have had a few participants that have never taken a photo with a camera before in their lives, but they have the ability to see and frame an interesting image straight out of the box! Give them a little drip-fed information, building on skills in a logical manner and some gentle guidance in the use of a camera and lenses and they are off and running really quickly! Whilst we have covered some basics of what can make an interesting image, I try and have my participants never analyse their images in any regards as to whether they have artistic merit or visual interest. They are merely taking images for themselves, losing themselves in deep observation. That is something I will never suppress in them by possibly telling them their images need to be thought out and have a story to them. These are people living with mental health challenges in their lives, finally mixing with others in a safe and gentle way, I'm not about to traumatise them in any way, shape or form.
Sometimes, photography is not about a story or visual impact, it is just the process of taking a picture, whatever that means to that individual. There is one participant who takes her 150 odd photo's per session and then gets me to format the SD card in the camera in front of her at the end of each session. She doesn't want to see any of her images, ever! She doesn't even chimp any of her images during the sessions. For her, it's all about the observation and losing herself from the intensities of her life and then letting that go, releasing it, so to speak. Some would say she could just do that by going and sitting quietly somewhere, she can't. she needs the camera as the tool to draw her into the place for her personal reasons.
That is the highly subjective part of photography I guess and some people need an image to be engrossing or tell them a story. For others, well, it can just be a bit of a leaf with some blue sky behind it and that's perfectly good enough.
For those that want to evolve their imagery, it can be done without necessarily buying better kit. It's not like you are trying to race a beat up old Datsun 180B against the latest McLaren!
Well, that response from me went all over the place and I'm not absolutely sure I effectively made my points, sorry folks. I haven't had my first coffee for the morning and I was rudely awoken by a possum clambering over the roof here! Where's @MacRy and his blunderbuss when you need him?
I truly appreciated your thought and genuineness of response. The idea of stages people go through is an interesting one. I'm sure it applies to most, but not everyone. Most people do tend to buy bigger and better when they can't achieve what they want in any regard.
I have photo's taken with my very first camera that still blow my socks off, and that was a bottom of the line DSLR kit with the two cheap lenses included. It did not have spot metering, but I still made it work. I snaffled it for about $400 I think, when there was a special deal on fleabay back in 2012. However, I did do a course in photography quickly after buying it which taught you how to use the camera well and manually, so I had an advantage over the weekend warriors out there in being able to achieve a technically good image.
What I'm trying to get at in this regard is that good images, both engrossing and technically proficient can be taken with lowly equipment. It's not necessary for people to evolve up through better and better equipment to be able to take better imagery. Some, like myself are limited by financial constraints and don't have the luxury to be able to do this at all. Some, don't see the need to do it for other reasons, such as environmental ethics, saving finances, etc...
Within my Mindful Photography groups, I have had a few participants that have never taken a photo with a camera before in their lives, but they have the ability to see and frame an interesting image straight out of the box! Give them a little drip-fed information, building on skills in a logical manner and some gentle guidance in the use of a camera and lenses and they are off and running really quickly! Whilst we have covered some basics of what can make an interesting image, I try and have my participants never analyse their images in any regards as to whether they have artistic merit or visual interest. They are merely taking images for themselves, losing themselves in deep observation. That is something I will never suppress in them by possibly telling them their images need to be thought out and have a story to them. These are people living with mental health challenges in their lives, finally mixing with others in a safe and gentle way, I'm not about to traumatise them in any way, shape or form.
Sometimes, photography is not about a story or visual impact, it is just the process of taking a picture, whatever that means to that individual. There is one participant who takes her 150 odd photo's per session and then gets me to format the SD card in the camera in front of her at the end of each session. She doesn't want to see any of her images, ever! She doesn't even chimp any of her images during the sessions. For her, it's all about the observation and losing herself from the intensities of her life and then letting that go, releasing it, so to speak. Some would say she could just do that by going and sitting quietly somewhere, she can't. she needs the camera as the tool to draw her into the place for her personal reasons.
That is the highly subjective part of photography I guess and some people need an image to be engrossing or tell them a story. For others, well, it can just be a bit of a leaf with some blue sky behind it and that's perfectly good enough.
For those that want to evolve their imagery, it can be done without necessarily buying better kit. It's not like you are trying to race a beat up old Datsun 180B against the latest McLaren!
Well, that response from me went all over the place and I'm not absolutely sure I effectively made my points, sorry folks. I haven't had my first coffee for the morning and I was rudely awoken by a possum clambering over the roof here! Where's @MacRy and his blunderbuss when you need him?
I think you expressed yourself quite well. Without getting all sappy, it's moments and posts like this that make me yearn for more time to spend exploring through my lens, and soaking up the knowledge and keen insights from some whom I believe are masters of the craft. There are quite a few of you around these parts - gentle souls who freely share their knowledge, experience and encouragement. We are all better off for it.
No need to apologise. All interesting stuff.I truly appreciated your thought and genuineness of response. The idea of stages people go through is an interesting one. I'm sure it applies to most, but not everyone. Most people do tend to buy bigger and better when they can't achieve what they want in any regard.
I have photo's taken with my very first camera that still blow my socks off, and that was a bottom of the line DSLR kit with the two cheap lenses included. It did not have spot metering, but I still made it work. I snaffled it for about $400 I think, when there was a special deal on fleabay back in 2012. However, I did do a course in photography quickly after buying it which taught you how to use the camera well and manually, so I had an advantage over the weekend warriors out there in being able to achieve a technically good image.
What I'm trying to get at in this regard is that good images, both engrossing and technically proficient can be taken with lowly equipment. It's not necessary for people to evolve up through better and better equipment to be able to take better imagery. Some, like myself are limited by financial constraints and don't have the luxury to be able to do this at all. Some, don't see the need to do it for other reasons, such as environmental ethics, saving finances, etc...
Within my Mindful Photography groups, I have had a few participants that have never taken a photo with a camera before in their lives, but they have the ability to see and frame an interesting image straight out of the box! Give them a little drip-fed information, building on skills in a logical manner and some gentle guidance in the use of a camera and lenses and they are off and running really quickly! Whilst we have covered some basics of what can make an interesting image, I try and have my participants never analyse their images in any regards as to whether they have artistic merit or visual interest. They are merely taking images for themselves, losing themselves in deep observation. That is something I will never suppress in them by possibly telling them their images need to be thought out and have a story to them. These are people living with mental health challenges in their lives, finally mixing with others in a safe and gentle way, I'm not about to traumatise them in any way, shape or form.
Sometimes, photography is not about a story or visual impact, it is just the process of taking a picture, whatever that means to that individual. There is one participant who takes her 150 odd photo's per session and then gets me to format the SD card in the camera in front of her at the end of each session. She doesn't want to see any of her images, ever! She doesn't even chimp any of her images during the sessions. For her, it's all about the observation and losing herself from the intensities of her life and then letting that go, releasing it, so to speak. Some would say she could just do that by going and sitting quietly somewhere, she can't. she needs the camera as the tool to draw her into the place for her personal reasons.
That is the highly subjective part of photography I guess and some people need an image to be engrossing or tell them a story. For others, well, it can just be a bit of a leaf with some blue sky behind it and that's perfectly good enough.
For those that want to evolve their imagery, it can be done without necessarily buying better kit. It's not like you are trying to race a beat up old Datsun 180B against the latest McLaren!
Well, that response from me went all over the place and I'm not absolutely sure I effectively made my points, sorry folks. I haven't had my first coffee for the morning and I was rudely awoken by a possum clambering over the roof here! Where's @MacRy and his blunderbuss when you need him?
I took up photography for a number of reasons. The main one being that at the time I wasn't getting out much as my daughter is autistic, so she didn't like to be outside.
So I would spend the week in the office and the weekends in the house. I was going stir crazy.
Now she's gone I probably get out less, but for different reasons.
However I still enjoy my photography time whenever it presents itself.
I truly appreciated your thought and genuineness of response. The idea of stages people go through is an interesting one. I'm sure it applies to most, but not everyone. Most people do tend to buy bigger and better when they can't achieve what they want in any regard.
I have photo's taken with my very first camera that still blow my socks off, and that was a bottom of the line DSLR kit with the two cheap lenses included. It did not have spot metering, but I still made it work. I snaffled it for about $400 I think, when there was a special deal on fleabay back in 2012. However, I did do a course in photography quickly after buying it which taught you how to use the camera well and manually, so I had an advantage over the weekend warriors out there in being able to achieve a technically good image.
What I'm trying to get at in this regard is that good images, both engrossing and technically proficient can be taken with lowly equipment. It's not necessary for people to evolve up through better and better equipment to be able to take better imagery. Some, like myself are limited by financial constraints and don't have the luxury to be able to do this at all. Some, don't see the need to do it for other reasons, such as environmental ethics, saving finances, etc...
Within my Mindful Photography groups, I have had a few participants that have never taken a photo with a camera before in their lives, but they have the ability to see and frame an interesting image straight out of the box! Give them a little drip-fed information, building on skills in a logical manner and some gentle guidance in the use of a camera and lenses and they are off and running really quickly! Whilst we have covered some basics of what can make an interesting image, I try and have my participants never analyse their images in any regards as to whether they have artistic merit or visual interest. They are merely taking images for themselves, losing themselves in deep observation. That is something I will never suppress in them by possibly telling them their images need to be thought out and have a story to them. These are people living with mental health challenges in their lives, finally mixing with others in a safe and gentle way, I'm not about to traumatise them in any way, shape or form.
Sometimes, photography is not about a story or visual impact, it is just the process of taking a picture, whatever that means to that individual. There is one participant who takes her 150 odd photo's per session and then gets me to format the SD card in the camera in front of her at the end of each session. She doesn't want to see any of her images, ever! She doesn't even chimp any of her images during the sessions. For her, it's all about the observation and losing herself from the intensities of her life and then letting that go, releasing it, so to speak. Some would say she could just do that by going and sitting quietly somewhere, she can't. she needs the camera as the tool to draw her into the place for her personal reasons.
That is the highly subjective part of photography I guess and some people need an image to be engrossing or tell them a story. For others, well, it can just be a bit of a leaf with some blue sky behind it and that's perfectly good enough.
For those that want to evolve their imagery, it can be done without necessarily buying better kit. It's not like you are trying to race a beat up old Datsun 180B against the latest McLaren!
Well, that response from me went all over the place and I'm not absolutely sure I effectively made my points, sorry folks. I haven't had my first coffee for the morning and I was rudely awoken by a possum clambering over the roof here! Where's @MacRy and his blunderbuss when you need him?
I agree with others that you expressed yourself quite well Alex
You made excellent points!
In hindsight I wish I had made a clarification that it is also possible to *skip* stages
Gear is one of the least important elements in photography (with obvious exceptions for certain types of photography). Yet it is where many who are starting out place all the emphasis. Or all the blame. There is so much emphasis on gear on the internet that it isn't crazy for people to feel this way. Gear is easy to talk about. Gear is easy to evaluate and rate. It's also natural to look for external factors for both image success and failure (i.e. my money was well spent or I need to spend more money).
Off the top of my head I can't think of any other creative endeavor where it can feel "normal" to blame the tools when starting out. For painting the first thought isn't: if only I had a better brush or higher quality paints. In music it isn't: if only I had a higher quality instrument. In writing it isn't: if only I had a better word processor. Yet for photography the quality of the tools is often where people put their focus. On one level it's quite odd, though on another it makes perfect sense. There isn't a huge market in convincing people they need better paint. There is a huge market in convincing people that they could create compelling images if they just spent a little more money....
As you said, there are many different motivations for people to take pics. For some it's wanting to capture important moments in life. For some it's a way to pay the bills. For some it's about the process (and I think you really hit the nail on the head here). For some it's an "easy" way to express themselves creatively.
Expectations differ. And as you rightfully said, it is all very subjective. And that's great. Nothing wrong with that at all. But that is part of the reason that some photography spaces on the internet can fail so spectacularly. *Assuming* that everyone has the same goal or expectations. Not realizing that goals and expectations can vary dramatically between different people.
Some people are perfectly happy with what are commonly labeled "snapshots" (and it is very unfortunate that the term has such negative connotations). Some people aspire to create "art" (whatever that means--though that's a separate and very complicated discussion). It's all good though and equally "valid".
Kudos for your work with Mindful Photography. I think that is awesome! Photography in some ways has the lowest bar for allowing people to creatively express themselves without requiring dedicated study. Everyone (barring some handicaps) can capture a pic. It doesn't have to be National Geographic quality. Just taking the time to pause, really *see* the world around you, *notice* the world around you can be therapeutic. Or help keep you centered. Or make you fall in love with life, the world, existence. The "quality" of the image (as judged by others) is often not the most important thing.
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Having a son who is both an artist and a musician, we have been through the "if only I had better tools" thought train with him quite a few times! First it was the pencils, so we got better, and then better again pencils. Then it was the brushes, which went through three expensive evolutions, and then it was the guitars, again with three evolutions!
Has his art and music gotten better, well yes, but mostly because he feels a financial obligation to get better as a result of the increased expenditure and therefore he has practiced more and as a result gotten better, surprise, surprise!
It was the inequity of access to photography that initially kicked off my Mindful Photography thing. This area we live in has a large pocket of public housing which has extremely low socio-economic levels and all the associated boredom, isolation, domestic violence, drug use, mental health challenges, etc... that goes with poverty.
I do work with a few people with cerebral-palsy, fibromyalgia, and chronic fatigue that have mental health challenges, mainly depressive in nature as a side effect of the physical conditions they live with. For them, I work from a tripod, which I carry around for them. They dictate where they want it pointed, how far they want it zoomed in or out, where they want the focal point to be, what aperture they want to use and then they press the shutter button. So, even for the physically handicapped, photography is not out of reach!
It's the connecting with life that I'm all about, through deep observation and immersion.
I love that I get to live vicariously through others vision and unique ways of seeing the world when I load the images back at home, to upload to the participants Dropbox accounts!
Having a son who is both an artist and a musician, we have been through the "if only I had better tools" thought train with him quite a few times! First it was the pencils, so we got better, and then better again pencils. Then it was the brushes, which went through three expensive evolutions, and then it was the guitars, again with three evolutions!
Has his art and music gotten better, well yes, but mostly because he feels a financial obligation to get better as a result of the increased expenditure and therefore he has practiced more and as a result gotten better, surprise, surprise!
It was the inequity of access to photography that initially kicked off my Mindful Photography thing. This area we live in has a large pocket of public housing which has extremely low socio-economic levels and all the associated boredom, isolation, domestic violence, drug use, mental health challenges, etc... that goes with poverty.
I do work with a few people with cerebral-palsy, fibromyalgia, and chronic fatigue that have mental health challenges, mainly depressive in nature as a side effect of the physical conditions they live with. For them, I work from a tripod, which I carry around for them. They dictate where they want it pointed, how far they want it zoomed in or out, where they want the focal point to be, what aperture they want to use and then they press the shutter button. So, even for the physically handicapped, photography is not out of reach!
It's the connecting with life that I'm all about, through deep observation and immersion.
I love that I get to live vicariously through others vision and unique ways of seeing the world when I load the images back at home, to upload to the participants Dropbox accounts!
You’re pretty awesome.
Having a son who is both an artist and a musician, we have been through the "if only I had better tools" thought train with him quite a few times! First it was the pencils, so we got better, and then better again pencils. Then it was the brushes, which went through three expensive evolutions, and then it was the guitars, again with three evolutions!
Has his art and music gotten better, well yes, but mostly because he feels a financial obligation to get better as a result of the increased expenditure and therefore he has practiced more and as a result gotten better, surprise, surprise!
It was the inequity of access to photography that initially kicked off my Mindful Photography thing. This area we live in has a large pocket of public housing which has extremely low socio-economic levels and all the associated boredom, isolation, domestic violence, drug use, mental health challenges, etc... that goes with poverty.
I do work with a few people with cerebral-palsy, fibromyalgia, and chronic fatigue that have mental health challenges, mainly depressive in nature as a side effect of the physical conditions they live with. For them, I work from a tripod, which I carry around for them. They dictate where they want it pointed, how far they want it zoomed in or out, where they want the focal point to be, what aperture they want to use and then they press the shutter button. So, even for the physically handicapped, photography is not out of reach!
It's the connecting with life that I'm all about, through deep observation and immersion.
I love that I get to live vicariously through others vision and unique ways of seeing the world when I load the images back at home, to upload to the participants Dropbox accounts!
Alex, your reply made me laugh out loud. My attempts at rhetorical flourish failed fantastically! Though your example proves my point? More importantly, do you have an example where anyone complained they needed a better word processor for writing? Game-set-match
More importantly, I really think the work you are doing is fantastic. Photography is something that can be easily accessible as a creative endeavor and can be very therapeutic. When wearing my hat as a medical educator, I encourage students, residents, and fellows that have even a passing interest in photography to think of it as a way to stay centered. Not right for everyone but can be an alternative to other mindfulness activities (like meditation).
This is getting off topic though and potentially reinforcing the "clique" criticisms of the site expressed in previous posts
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.Thanks, Molly! I just see myself as lucky to infect others with the photography bug, in my own way!
Absolutely, I proved your point for you! The artistic lads improvements could have happened if he had put in the same determination and effort with his initial tools. And we could have had a nice tropical holiday as a family!Alex, your reply made me laugh out loud. My attempts at rhetorical flourish failed fantastically! Though your example proves my point? More importantly, do you have an example where anyone complained they needed a better word processor for writing? Game-set-match
Thanks, and yep, too true. As a tool to induce deep observation, it's the easiest and quickest for the greater majority of people to be able to access that state of Mindfulness.
You'll tend to notice that I have a great penchant for dragging conversations all over the shop!This is getting off topic though and potentially reinforcing the "clique" criticisms of the site expressed in previous posts
I used to post more, but I slowed down and left for a bit. I hope to be back daily as I used to.
The reason I stopped (childish on my part) simply because one of my photos was criticked in a way that I wasn't "happy?" I am a strong believer of constructive criticism, and this one time it was missing that, but I love it when I am told a certain photo needs some changes and at least send me in the right direction. I am by no means the best, but at least tell me how to get better, or what to google for.
The reason I stopped (childish on my part) simply because one of my photos was criticked in a way that I wasn't "happy?" I am a strong believer of constructive criticism, and this one time it was missing that, but I love it when I am told a certain photo needs some changes and at least send me in the right direction. I am by no means the best, but at least tell me how to get better, or what to google for.
I wondered why we weren't seeing you around these parts Oscar! I thought it may have been family commitments, maybe a new bubba or such, but it saddens me to hear the actual reason why.
I have to agree with you, there's constructive criticism and critical commentary. I too have no problem with constructive criticisms of any kind as you can evolve your art as a result of this, but criticisms like "it's ordinary" are not of any benefit to anyone, had the individual made the effort to share what could have been done to lift it above the ordinary, that would have been helpful; maybe a simpler / clearer background, framing it differently and creating a different POV, having it larger in the frame, etc...
When you are ready, it would be good to have you join in again.