Why is Big Sur so ugly?

[FNH15]

But see, it's not hard to make something that looks better than a flat piece of crap. 😈 Let's give it some real competition:

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The best. Clickable elements are clearly clickable. It's not overly black (dark mode) but it also doesn't burn your eyes (light mode).

I'm tempted to post more screenshots because these two don't do it justice (I just pulled up the applications you showed), but seriously, Leopard-era Mac OS is just a timeless design. Take a look through:

Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard

When asked which version of Mac OS X was the best, many Mac nerds will reply with Snow Leopard. Released in 2009 under the mantra "No New Features," 10.6 did bring new things with it. Mail, iCal and Address Book were granted Microsoft Exchange integration, and as it was the first release to...

512pixels.net

I always disliked the way Leopard / Snow Leopard looked. ML/Mavericks was much better - wasn’t as heavy as Leopard.
My personal favorite is Tiger though - that UI is just fun...

 

[frankiee]

Yeah, so I have to say I also do not like the Big Sur UI too much. It looks and feels inconsistent, and also there are changes where it seems to me that they changed things for the sake of changing things, and again a lot of violations of one of the most basic design fundamentals, so instead of "form follows" function it is "function follows form" again. (And I thought that this will go away since Jony Ive was thrown out of the company)

Examples are the overly translucent menu bar, strange feeling upper rounded corners with drop down menus or the inconsistent icon design as many others mentioned. But let me throw in another small example to illustrate my point, and thats the select boxes.

So, this is how they looked like in Mavericks:



Actually pretty minimalistic already, right? Maybe just remove that subtle gradient and it is already near perfect.

(Remember: "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery)

Now, for the same UI element in Catalina:

So the gradient is gone, but the arrows are much more emphasied! From my POV, already a step back since those arrows are now just crying for attention! I mean it is also a matter of taste, but for me the mavericks design cues were clear enough - but also subtle enough! - to communicate what type of widget I am looking at. No need for shouting it out loud!

Now, on for big sur:

So what has changed here? They further removed contrast from the outline, making it already harder to see. And they also introduced a white border around the little arrows. So what does this suppose to actually improve? At least for _me_ it adds even more visual clutter, I cannot see what purpose this white border has, other than adding decoration and looking different for the sake of looking different?

There is a LOT LOT more of this stuff, for example look at the same dialog, but now at the tab section:

So the outline of the active tab is barely visible, actually so subtle you now could just remove it anyways, since it feels like a design error. So only the color remains for showing what tab is actually active. Now, imagine you are being color blind ... (and I also assume it gets even worse when using the grey accent color)

Disclaimer: I studied graphic design, and I am doing UI / UX for a living, so I dare to express my opinion on this.

Apple, hire some proper designers. Please.

(Edit: actually it might be not a problem with incapable designers, but rather with incapable execs preventing them from doing proper work. Something I experienced a lot when working for bigger companies.)

 

[fisherking]

whatever one thinks of the look of big sur, it's not like it was thrown together over a weekend (i feel like i should make a joke right here );

apple makes very calculated moves, changes what it wants to, the way it wants to.

so, basically... we adapt (or not). 'hoping' apple will hire 'some proper designers' is a pointless exercise; if apple gave everyone what they want, we'd have millions of variations of hardware/software design.

we get what they give (or we hold back, or switch platforms). expecting change that accomodates any single person's wishlist is absurd.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

@frankiee

It's interesting to note that, in a way, the Catalina design is actually closer to earlier iterations of Aqua:

And I agree, it looks too garish. But I think the reason the Mavericks design works is because of that gradient, which would be out of place in Yosemite/Catalina.

Do a little test—open a window with lots of UI controls, and squint your eyes to the point where text is impossible to read. Can you still tell what all the form controls do?

In Snow Leopard, you can absolutely tell.

Mavericks is a little harder, but it passes the test well enough. Even though highlight colors are used less frequently, the gradients make each type of element distinct.

Yosemite through Catalina mostly fail—I really hate the design of those OS's. Big Sur does noticeably better, although I still think it's a step back from Mavericks.

Since most of us don't use our computers while squinting, you might ask why this matters; I think it helps with scanability. If you can tell at a very quick glance what all the controls do, navigating the UI becomes that much faster and easier.

 

[frankiee]

whatever one thinks of the look of big sur, it's not like it was thrown together over a weekend (i feel like i should make a joke right here );

Not over a weekend for sure, but "thrown together" is not that far away from my perception

we get what they give (or we hold back, or switch platforms)

So your stance is "eat or go away" and thats fine, but others might think different. Actually I'd love to have good looking AND functional Apple products (I own a lot of them) but not all is good thats coming from them. I mean they even had some quite bad designs where it wasn't only some matter of taste but downright bad design. (Like Hockeypuck Mouse, also the one that came with my MP, the MP6,1, the stripes running across the menues in the original Aqua theme, "Metal Theme" and many many more).

And yes, I think they did not do the best job here, and at least tried to explain why.

 

[fisherking]

Not over a weekend for sure, but "thrown together" is not that far away from my perception



So your stance is "eat or go away" and thats fine, but others might think different. Actually I'd love to have good looking AND functional Apple products (I own a lot of them) but not all is good thats coming from them. I mean they even had some quite bad designs where it wasn't only some matter of taste but downright bad design. (Like Hockeypuck Mouse, also the one that came with my MP, the MP6,1, the stripes running across the menues in the original Aqua theme, "Metal Theme" and many many more).

And yes, I think they did not do the best job here, and at least tried to explain why.

what you think, and what others think, is not necessarily the same thing. some people seem to like the new look; most will probably just continue to do their actual work... and not stare at icons.

apple, like all corporations, cannot possibly accomodate everyone's needs, so they make their own decisions. and they seem to do fairly well as a company, so they must have some idea of what they're doing.

if you're waiting for an 'explanation' from apple about why they 'did not do the best job here'... don't hold your breath. they may be feeling really good right now about where they are, and where they're headed...

 

[Wowfunhappy]

...I don't know about you, but I'm just here to discuss the design. We can do that without an explanation form Apple.

 

[frankiee]

And I agree, it looks too garish. But I think the reason the Mavericks design works is because of that gradient, which would be out of place in Yosemite/Catalina.

Actually I don't have a big problem with the gradient,

Do a little test—open a window with lots of UI controls, and squint your eyes to the point where text is impossible to read. Can you still tell what all the form controls do?

No, and I see no reason why I should, and not all of them at once for sure.

In Snow Leopard, you can absolutely tell.

Yeah, and I think thats in fact the general problem with the original Aqua design: it really pops in your eyes. All controls at once. But thats not how people actually perceive and work with such elements, so I guess it was mainly for the show (and branding?) or just because Steve said so.

Mavericks is a little harder, but it passes the test well enough. Even though highlight colors are used less frequently, the gradients make each type of element distinct.

No, the gradients and the outline indicate more like a general(!) control element, so it is not exactly to make each type distinct, but mark it as a part of a bigger group. And thats absolutely fine, so you know whats "clickable" immediatly.

My problem with the mac sur design is more like it looks good on surface / first glance, but when you look closer many changes simply make no sense - from a usability standpoint. So it is form follows function again. Well, you might say nobody stares at form controls all day, but yes you actually do in many cases, just not conciously. But still it matters a lot. One more example: the menues in BS are more translucent. Now, that might look fancy (to some), but that actually makes reading them harder. Maybe this was the reason they tried to counter this with the bigger spacing, so it takes more space as well, but now on top of that mouse moves also take a bit longer.

And what is more important: a fancy looking UI or one thats easier / more efficently to use?
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apple, like all corporations, cannot possibly accomodate everyone's needs, so they make their own decisions. and they seem to do fairly well as a company, so they must have some idea of what they're doing.

I see where you are heading to, but in my(!) opinion thats a big misconception.

And some idea is simply not enough for Apple. At least thats not the Apple I'd like to see.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

No, and I see no reason why I should, and not all of them at once for sure.

Sorry, I should have phrased that differently, I didn't actually expect you to load up four OS's and do a squint test! But I have done that, because I'm a nerd, and I recounted above what I've found.

And what is more important: a fancy looking UI or one thats easier / more efficently to use?

Right, and that's why I brought up scannability (for which the squint test is a proxy). When each type of control looks very distinct, it helps me navigate more quickly, because it's easier to parse the screen. I usually know whether I'm looking for a dropdown or a button.

 

[frankiee]

When each type of control looks very distinct, it helps me navigate more quickly, because it's easier to parse the screen. I usually know whether I'm looking for a dropdown or a button.

You parse the screen by the type of control? Now thats interesting, but also a bit unusual I guess as a nerd, you may be a lot faster at parsing a form than the average person.

Usually, most people are more information focused, at least at the first stage. Like "I want to know where I can change my name", but not "how does the control where I change my name look like". Only in the second stage - you have located where the thing is - the brain is concerned with actually executing the task. And thats actually the stage where it becomes important to assess the type of the control for the user, i.e. "what can I do with it" (defaulting to "click" or "tap")

 

[Traverse]

I have a 40" monitor running at 1.5x. I can cram a ton of stuff on my screen and still be able to read it. It appears (I am probably wrong) that the space utilization on the new Big Sur is not designed for big monitors, thus making the OS more frustrating for people like me that really like to put lots of stuff in front of their face.

That was my expectation (and fear) based on the Music app in Catalina, which was clearly a hint at Apple’s future design plan. When I take the Music app full screen on a 27” iMac I see...the same number of album art columns as in a normal window, just with large blank columns on either side.

Given that screen size is one of the biggest differentiators between iOS devices and macOS devices, I’m surprised that macOS is seemingly so poorly optimized.
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we get what they give (or we hold back, or switch platforms). expecting change that accomodates any single person's wishlist is absurd.

That doesn’t mean that users can’t give constructive Feedback to Apple (assuming they’re giving feedback and not just complaining on online forums). That is, after all, the entire point of betas - to find bugs and get feedback.

Also, I agree with you on aesthetic choices, but I believe several posters have given examples of legitimately poor U.I. choices that are harder to read or use. These are moving forward, these are items that were overlooked or that didn’t impact the handful of designers who worked on them and there’s room for improvement.

 

[retta283]

It really does seem to be a poor use of screen space, unfortunately Apple has been falling into this problem on Mac and even iPad for some time, and this is one of the worst cases yet. To me, this design is just abysmal. So much white space and it's hard to tell what's a button and what's not, especially in Finder.

 

[fisherking]

That was my expectation (and fear) based on the Music app in Catalina, which was clearly a hint at Apple’s future design plan. When I take the Music app full screen on a 27” iMac I see...the same number of album art columns as in a normal window, just with large blank columns on either side.

Given that screen size is one of the biggest differentiators between iOS devices and macOS devices, I’m surprised that macOS is seemingly so poorly optimized.
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That doesn’t mean that users can’t give constructive Feedback to Apple (assuming they’re giving feedback and not just complaining on online forums).

that says it all. how many ppl on this forum whine & moan, but don't leave feedback with apple? (not that anyone should expect apple to change anything, just because 5 people from a mac forum complain).

any time i have an issue (on my macs, or my phone), i report it in feedback assistant. a very few times, i've gotten responses. so someone is out there...

if you're doing that, that's good. but ppl who just rant on this forum accomplish nothing whatsoever (except, at best, providing some mild entertainment for others)

that goes for me too

 

[AustinIllini]

Snow Leopard was the best OS X.

I don't mind the way Big Sur looks, btw. I'm looking forward to trying it on my backup Mac.

 

[frankiee]

a very few times, i've gotten responses.

You got? Lucky guy, I never got.

 

[pioneer9k]

You parse the screen by the type of control? Now thats interesting, but also a bit unusual I guess as a nerd, you may be a lot faster at parsing a form than the average person.

Usually, most people are more information focused, at least at the first stage. Like "I want to know where I can change my name", but not "how does the control where I change my name look like". Only in the second stage - you have located where the thing is - the brain is concerned with actually executing the task. And thats actually the stage where it becomes important to assess the type of the control for the user, i.e. "what can I do with it" (defaulting to "click" or "tap")

I think a lot of the time people over estimate the average persons ability to use tech. The goal should definitely be to make it as clear and legible as possible with as little thought as possible. I often see when my grandpa uses her iPhone or iPad and when buttons aren't clear for example, that's causes her stress because she doesn't think like a techie would, she doesnt automatically know when there probably will be a button and where etc.

 

[fisherking]

I think a lot of the time people over estimate the average persons ability to use tech. The goal should definitely be to make it as clear and legible as possible with as little thought as possible. I often see when my grandpa uses her iPhone or iPad and when buttons aren't clear for example, that's causes her stress because she doesn't think like a techie would, she doesnt automatically know when there probably will be a button and where etc.

but that's just it; the 'average' person doesn't sweat the details that we do on a forum like this; they just use their macs. and if they don't use 75% of what's there, that's fine, but if they need another feature, they can adapt.

for example, lots of ppl just live on their desktops, and have never looked in the documents folder, ppl who have a dozen duplicates of a pdf they downloaded (because they don't check the downloads folder).

most people just use what's in front of them, to send an email, visit a site, watch netflix... whatever. and then there are the forums, where we stress every little thing (am not complaining, just saying!)

 

[pioneer9k]

but that's just it; the 'average' person doesn't sweat the details that we do on a forum like this; they just use their macs. and if they don't use 75% of what's there, that's fine, but if they need another feature, they can adapt.

for example, lots of ppl just live on their desktops, and have never looked in the documents folder, ppl who have a dozen duplicates of a pdf they downloaded (because they don't check the downloads folder).

most people just use what's in front of them, to send an email, visit a site, watch netflix... whatever. and then there are the forums, where we stress every little thing (am not complaining, just saying!)

Youre missing my point. Im saying these UI's shouldn't look pretty and minimal for the point of being minimal bc we all want it. Im in favor of more obvious controls for people like this where things are obvious and easy to use. That's not me stressing over little things lol and if it is then were on different pages and its pointless to debate.

 

[fisherking]

Youre missing my point. Im saying these UI's shouldn't look pretty and minimal for the point of being minimal bc we all want it. Im in favor of more obvious controls for people like this where things are obvious and easy to use. That's not me stressing over little things lol and if it is then were on different pages and its pointless to debate.

honestly, you can feel any way you want about it, but apple's not going to redesign the OS just for you... that's all i'm saying. it doesn't invalidate your opinion. but am sure everyone will adapt, and find their way around

 

[Erehy Dobon]

Snow Leopard was the best OS X.

That was 2010 when UI designers still had a clue, like putting underlines for hypertext links on webpages. In dog years, that's about seventy years ago.

Also, hypertext links went from one color to another so the user would know if they visited that page.

Today, you need to hover around to figure out what's clickable or not (or invoke some weird keyboard combination to have these displayed) and you have no idea whether or not you've seen the destination page.

 

[fisherking]

That was 2010 when UI designers still had a clue, like putting underlines for hypertext links on webpages. In dog years, that's about seventy years ago.

Also, hypertext links went from one color to another so the user would know if they visited that page.

Today, you need to hover around to figure out what's clickable or not (or invoke some weird keyboard combination to have these displayed) and you have no idea whether or not you've seen the destination page.

underlined links? shudder... so 2010.

snow leopard was great... in 2010. but who would give up a clean 64-bit system, icloud, airdrop, better mail, better web browsing, etc etc to go back 10 years? (which is about 100 years in tech years)...

 

[Erehy Dobon]

We're discussing UI not underlying architecture.

Re-read the thread title and please stay on topic.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

most people just use what's in front of them, to send an email, visit a site, watch netflix... whatever. and then there are the forums, where we stress every little thing (am not complaining, just saying!)

My grandmother, to this day, still complains to me about how her iPad has become too complicated and she misses when it was simple. This started when iOS 7 came out, so it's quite clear what she's referring to.

(It's actually quite annoying—she brings this up every time she sees me, as though to hint that I should use my magical technology skills to do something about it. I can't, of course.)

 

[pioneer9k]

honestly, you can feel any way you want about it, but apple's not going to redesign the OS just for you... that's all i'm saying. it doesn't invalidate your opinion. but am sure everyone will adapt, and find their way around

Lmao. Trust me I am not so naive to think Apple is going to redesign their OS just for me. Sorry you got that impression.

 

[fisherking]

Lmao. Trust me I am not so naive to think Apple is going to redesign their OS just for me. Sorry you got that impression.

then what are you going on about?
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My grandmother, to this day, still complains to me about how her iPad has become too complicated and she misses when it was simple. This started when iOS 7 came out, so it's quite clear what she's referring to.

(It's actually quite annoying—she brings this up every time she sees me, as though to hint that I should use my magical technology skills to do something about it. I can't, of course.)

let's let apple know about your grandmother's concerns asap! meanwhile, can you show her how to use it in it's most basic way? things haven't changed that much...