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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,433
2,656
OBX
I am betting on even more than that. because if goes from 4 performance and 4 low performance cores to 8 performance and 2 low performance cores. That is if the rumors are true.

Also would not be surprised if the M1x is 5nm+ instead of 5nm.
32 GPU cores (with hardware ray tracing) or bust!!!!
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
16,120
2,397
Lard
Exactly, I'm not looking for a desktop replacement. I'd be perfectly happy with a 16-core M1X GPU if that means I'm able to game on-the-go at 1080p with what otherwise is my work machine. For serious gaming, I have my desktop PC anyway.
What's amusing to me is that my 2017/2018 Omen by HP i7700HQ with GTX1050 isn't that much faster than my mid-2012 MacBook Pro with 3rd generation quad-core i7 and GeForce 650M. I'm sure that the numbers say it is much faster, but in reality, it's just okay.

At this point, the GTX1660 Ti is a step up, but the numbers say it's a much bigger step up. As quickly as the GTX20xx has become last year's hero, the industry is still working on a way to remove the heat quietly.

The good thing is that you can't boil water with these newer machines but you could with my mid-2012 MacBook Pro as it can be at 100 degrees C regularly while processing images or video.
 

VArase

macrumors regular
Feb 1, 2008
114
60
Chicagoland
I am betting on even more than that. because if goes from 4 performance and 4 low performance cores to 8 performance and 2 low performance cores. That is if the rumors are true.

Also would not be surprised if the M1x is 5nm+ instead of 5nm.
I was talking about M2.
 

GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,126
2,706
The Mac mini M1X will be around $1,200-$1300 for base model.
Maybe, but which M1X? The base model that is a minor spec bump to the current version or the one that has massively improved GPU power? Surely not the latter.
How many, like me, want a laptop computer with a discrete GPU that's good, but not great, and can run moderate games at good resolution?
Asus and Razer come to mind, depending on config. I have a 15" Razer with RTX5000 in addition to my fully specced MBP16. It's a good machine. I'm thinking of grabbing a Blade 14.

lol, when a 3080 is half the price of whatever m1x comes next I doubt you can build something that much better for cheaper.
3080 is $699 and 3090 $1499. So $700 + cheap CPU/mainboard/RAM/SSD, PSU and Case. Are you so far away from something Apple offers with the performance of 3080/3070? That's what Apple will put into the Mac Mini Pro, which is placed between the normal Mac Mini and the Mac Pro which starts at $6k.
Aren’t 3080’s going for over $1K these days?
I'm talking retail. You might have to wait a little, but you can still get retail prices from your local dealer that you've supported over the years. I bought several laptops / desktop components this year for regular prices, but had to wait. Same for Dell systems, but the ones I bought are more in the $30k to $40k range anyway, but they were not more than before. If you want some GPU tomorrow, you have to pay the higher price. I'm fine with waiting.

If you're talking laptops, Razer Blade 14 has 3060 for $1.8k, 3070 for $2.2k and 3080 for $2.8k, all retail before potential discount. Asus G series is cheaper. Much more interesting is, how good the next Apple chips will be.

All that won't change that game developers won't support macOS for AAA games though.
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
16,120
2,397
Lard
...
Asus and Razer come to mind, depending on config. I have a 15" Razer with RTX5000 in addition to my fully specced MBP16. It's a good machine. I'm thinking of grabbing a Blade 14.
...

The Blade 14 looks amazing. Hopefully, it's everything Razer has stated. Cooking a laptop computer isn't a good thing. Razer gets the most grief, followed closely by ASUS, so I always know where to go for a laptop machine.
 

MacCheetah3

macrumors 68020
Nov 14, 2003
2,282
1,219
Central MN
I always considered the Mini to be the chip dump where Apple put the components they couldn't sell in higher priced models.
My guess is the sometimes seemingly odd configs were more a result of difficulty getting the balance. Depending on generation, Intel desktop CPUs just weren’t efficient enough, but the mobile-focused variants were a significant step down in performance. The mini’s chassis size allowed for HDDs, although, at some point (even at the lower product price range) Apple knew there was enough demand for faster main drive options. It’s really the same challenge of “where can/do I compromise?” when assembling any SFF PC — a much blurrier line than even laptop component choices.

Aren’t 3080’s going for over $1K these days? The low-end M1X Mac mini is almost guaranteed to start at $1099 because it’s going to replace the i5 Intel mini. When Apple replaced the i3 mini with M1 they even lowered the price by $100. Even if you went with the higher-end M1X models, they’ll likely come in around $1,499. I don’t think you could even come close to that if you wanted a 3080 rig.
Yes, it’s delusional to think you can build a 3080 rig for the price of an M1x given the ****ed up gpu market right now. Msrp is $700 or so but that’s sold out nearly 100% of the time, and your other option is paying $2k on ebay.

So unless you’ve got industry connections or a friend willing to sell you one for cheap, I have extreme difficulty believing the argument that one could build a super powerful rig for the price of an M1x in the current market.

Maybe when prices fall the next Etherium crash it will hold water but until then it’s flat wrong.
Indeed. I have a SFF system with Ryzen 5600X / 32GB / 960GB / RTX 3080 FE from an SI purchased early this summer and it was $3k+. The listed price is still about the same as of today.
 

MacCheetah3

macrumors 68020
Nov 14, 2003
2,282
1,219
Central MN
I'm talking retail. You might have to wait a little, but you can still get retail prices from your local dealer that you've supported over the years. I bought several laptops / desktop components this year for regular prices, but had to wait. Same for Dell systems, but the ones I bought are more in the $30k to $40k range anyway, but they were not more than before. If you want some GPU tomorrow, you have to pay the higher price. I'm fine with waiting.
I was okay with waiting too. However, prices certainly were not MSRP rather 10 to 50% market —which is fine versus the scalper 100%+. Unfortunately, wait times were weeks to months and those were estimates, not promises.

Using bots was/is the only way of getting MSRP that I’ve read, and that’s only via some outlets.
 
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theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,880
3,059
Let's set aside software (where Windows is going to be far superior at least for the near future), and just talk hardware. And let's divide gamers into these four categories.

[TLDR: If you want an all-around computer (either laptop or desktop) that plays games reasonably well, the AS Macs will be fine (and, IMO, give you a much better all-round experience than a PC). But if you want a gaming-focused laptop or desktop, PC's will offer superior value and performance.]

I. Laptop buyers

1) Those that want an all-around laptop that can play games reasonably well. Here, the Macs will be fine. Indeed, if you don't mind the cost, a top-end MBP with a 32-core GPU may give performance roughly equal to a 3070 RTX laptop GPU, which, while not bleeding edge, is pretty high-end.

2) Those that want a gaming-focused laptop. If you mostly care about gaming, PC laptops offer vastly superior value. For $2000 you can get a Ryzen Alienware X15 with GPU performance that may roughly equal a top-end 32-core GPU MBP (NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 8GB GDDR6), and a far better display for gaming than the Mac's (though much worse for all-around use): 15.6" QHD (2560 x 1440) 240Hz 2ms. By constrast, a 32-core GPU MBP would probably be $3000+. Granted, the Ryzen CPU (AMD Ryzen 9 5900HX) will lag the M1X, but is the effect the CPU difference has on gaming worth paying 50% more, and also giving up the gaming-focused monitor?

II. Desktop buyers

1) Those that want an all-around desktop rig that can play games reasonably well. Here the Mini will be fine. And you can pair it with a gaming monitor if you wish.

2) Those that want a gaming-focused desktop rig. Here you can buy a gaming monitor, which removes that as a gaming downside for the Mini. Nevertheless, as with laptops, PC is the clear choice here. Even if you buy a Mini with a top-end 32-core GPU, you're only going to get performance roughly equivalent to the RTX 3070 laptop GPU. That gives you only *half* the performance of the 3070 desktop GPU. And a Ryzen desktop rig with an RTX 3070 isn't going to cost much more than a Mini with a 32-core GPU (or you could drop down to a 3060, and still have much more GPU performance than a 32-core Mini).
 
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MacCheetah3

macrumors 68020
Nov 14, 2003
2,282
1,219
Central MN
Put simply, this conversation is premature. We don’t yet have enough data, a single Mac SOC, to make any credible conclusions regarding hardware predictions and/or recommendations.
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,880
3,059
Put simply, this conversation is premature. We don’t yet have enough data, a single Mac SOC, to make any credible conclusions regarding hardware predictions and/or recommendations.
While I certainly appreciate the desire to be careful, note that the site's name is MacRumors. The whole point of this is to have fun speculating. It's only a problem when people forget that they're speculating, and treat their predicitions/opinions as fact.
 
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MacCheetah3

macrumors 68020
Nov 14, 2003
2,282
1,219
Central MN
While I certainly appreciate the desire to be careful, note that the site's name is MacRumors. The whole point of this is to have fun speculating. It's only a problem when people forget that they're speculating, and treat their predicitions/opinions as fact.
What I mean is this seems more of an “I hope/wish/want…” discussion — and that’s fine. However, speculation isn’t even possible at this point. When the second M-series chip is (officially) released, we’ll have at least some ability to respectfully say “The next Apple Silicon MBP/iMac/Mm/… will probably…” I mainly bring it up because of the title question and also the majority tone in this conversation — trying to make comparisons.
 

Weed

macrumors member
Apr 16, 2021
69
120
If you game just buy a Windows machine. Not hard. Don't get the obsession with buying a Mac.
 
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theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,880
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What I mean is this seems more of an “I hope/wish/want…” discussion — and that’s fine. However, speculation isn’t even possible at this point. When the second M-series chip is (officially) released, we’ll have at least some ability to respectfully say “The next Apple Silicon MBP/iMac/Mm/… will probably…” I mainly bring it up because of the title question and also the majority tone in this conversation — trying to make comparisons.
Some speculation is possible. We know what an 8-core AS GPU can do and, assuming linear scaling (not a terrible assumption when it comes to GPU's), we can do a rough extrapolation to what 16-core and 32-core AS GPU's might do. If the GPU cores on the "M1X" are faster than those on the M1, then our extrapolation may be overly conservative, but that's OK.
 
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Jorbanead

macrumors 65816
Aug 31, 2018
1,209
1,438
What I mean is this seems more of an “I hope/wish/want…” discussion — and that’s fine. However, speculation isn’t even possible at this point. When the second M-series chip is (officially) released, we’ll have at least some ability to respectfully say “The next Apple Silicon MBP/iMac/Mm/… will probably…” I mainly bring it up because of the title question and also the majority tone in this conversation — trying to make comparisons.
Are you saying we dont have enough information to extrapolate the next chip because we only have M1? If so, we can also look at A14 and the X-varients of previous years to see how apple silicon scales to some degree. So it's not just shots in the dark here.
 

VArase

macrumors regular
Feb 1, 2008
114
60
Chicagoland
Maybe, but which M1X? The base model that is a minor spec bump to the current version or the one that has massively improved GPU power? Surely not the latter.
I've heard there will be two versions of the M1x - one with 16 GPU cores (double M1) and one with 32 GPU cores (quadruple M1).
I'm talking retail. You might have to wait a little, but you can still get retail prices from your local dealer that you've supported over the years. I bought several laptops / desktop components this year for regular prices, but had to wait. Same for Dell systems, but the ones I bought are more in the $30k to $40k range anyway, but they were not more than before. If you want some GPU tomorrow, you have to pay the higher price. I'm fine with waiting.
Not sure what you're talking about ... what could possibly be in the $30k or $40k price range?
All that won't change that game developers won't support macOS for AAA games though.
As the population pool of Apple Silicon machines grows, you would think that AAA developers would take notice.

I remain unconvinced that gaming is nailed to any one platform - when you have a large enough population of gaming capable computers, some of the users of those computers will buy more expensive and immersive games.

I think the number of users who buy computers exclusively to game is and always has been a pretty small part of any computer owning population.

While hardcore gamers form a large plurality of AAA game sales, by no means do I think they are the majority. Most customers are probably simply users who have enough oomph in their systems to successfully game, and they buy a game or two for recreation.
 

GrumpyCoder

macrumors 68020
Nov 15, 2016
2,126
2,706
I've heard there will be two versions of the M1x - one with 16 GPU cores (double M1) and one with 32 GPU cores (quadruple M1).
We should see in the next one or two months.
Not sure what you're talking about ... what could possibly be in the $30k or $40k price range?
Precision workstations. Xeon CPUs single or dual, 512GB/1TB/2TB RAM, storage, single or multiple RTX8000 GPUs, whatever you need. Max out the current Mac Pro and you’re at $50k as well. The Nvidia DGX is selling in the 6-figure range, so nothing to exotic really.
As the population pool of Apple Silicon machines grows, you would think that AAA developers would take notice.
They are aware of it, they just don’t care. I’ve talked to several people in the past few month about gaming on Mac, at GTC and outside. No one is willing to make the jump if they’re not already involved. I can’t blame anyone, I recently had to give up macOS support for two of my multi-platform projects as well. One was Unity based, the other Unreal Engine. Too much work keeping macOS support up and running, just not worth it.
 

VArase

macrumors regular
Feb 1, 2008
114
60
Chicagoland
Put simply, this conversation is premature. We don’t yet have enough data, a single Mac SOC, to make any credible conclusions regarding hardware predictions and/or recommendations.
Actually we do have a single Mac SoC, and you own one: the M1 SoC.

We just don't have the M1x yet.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,516
19,661
Put simply, this conversation is premature. We don’t yet have enough data, a single Mac SOC, to make any credible conclusions regarding hardware predictions and/or recommendations.

I disagree. Apple G13 performance is a known quantity and it’s a fairly straightforward extrapolation exercise to predict the lower performance bounds of various configurations. Of course, upcoming prosumer GPUs will likely be based on an updated architecture which should make them even faster.
 

AgentMcGeek

macrumors 6502
Jan 18, 2016
374
305
London, UK
Maybe, but which M1X? The base model that is a minor spec bump to the current version or the one that has massively improved GPU power? Surely not the latter.
Even with the base 16 GPU cores you are talking about a doubling of the M1 GPU performance. That's massive alright.
EDIT: I see VArase made that point already.
 

thenewperson

macrumors 6502a
Mar 27, 2011
992
912
I disagree. Apple G13 performance is a known quantity and it’s a fairly straightforward extrapolation exercise to predict the lower performance bounds of various configurations. Of course, upcoming prosumer GPUs will likely be based on an updated architecture which should make them even faster.
Aren't all the rumours pointing to the same G13 cores used? I do hope they're newer cores though.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,516
19,661
Aren't all the rumours pointing to the same G13 cores used? I do hope they're newer cores though.

There were mentions of a new GPU revision with codename “Lifuka”. Also, I doubt very much that Apple will still be using the same A14-based tech a year after. The delays most likely mean that we will see a substantial hardware revision. On the GPU side, I expect at least hardware ray tracing and larger register files/caches, possibly also double FP16 throughput.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,433
2,656
OBX
There were mentions of a new GPU revision with codename “Lifuka”. Also, I doubt very much that Apple will still be using the same A14-based tech a year after. The delays most likely mean that we will see a substantial hardware revision. On the GPU side, I expect at least hardware ray tracing and larger register files/caches, possibly also double FP16 throughput.
I also hope they add ML-SS.
 
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