Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?

[Azrael9]

To finish (and for your personal info), I think AMD's effort are concentrating toward "translating" CUDA code for their GPU (when you are so low in your self esteem and acknowledge to have lost .......)
Or it's a tool to create interface between both technologies within the libraries. Something like that ...

GitHub - ROCm/HIP: HIP: C++ Heterogeneous-Compute Interface for Portability

HIP: C++ Heterogeneous-Compute Interface for Portability - ROCm/HIP

github.com

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I want a desktop for my next computer.

My iPad Pro is a more capable and portable machine than an apple laptop.

And more power budget in a desktop. Less chance to have a slowly exploding battery after 6.5 years of usage.

That makes sense. When you're suffering that level of 'beat down' in the Big Boy Pro Space a translation layer makes perfect sense. A bridge to potential customers.

Noted.

I'd concur with your view on the iPad vs Apple laptop. I know which I'd rather use. *Dreams of Procreate and iPad Pro...

Ah. Your bulging battery. You'll feel unshackled with a desktop.

Azrael.
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When you are a student you don’t have choice to have a powerful machine you can transport
But once you have done your time (lol), desktops are more appropriate. Especially with the power an iPad can have today and will have in one week with iPadOS14

*nods.

I'm looking forward to the progress with the iPad OS (14) and the Mac ARM announcement as much as I am the 'new' iMac in some ways.

The power in the iPad has me impressed. The innovation in the apps, no fans...progressive power all in a 'real' computer for 'the rest of us.' And I see an even brighter future for it. (I'd still like a bigger size of iPad though...16 inches..?)

I'm always interested in the OS tech' (fondly recalling the Steve Jobs OS keynotes...of yore.)

Azrael.
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I my world, it is better to use 50W for a job rather than 200W.

I like efficiency. I find that using desktop parts and design the case according not particularly inventive. The 5600M is impressive because it is a clever solution.

It is a 'clever' solution in that context.

Still think the price sucks though. Eye gauging with a spoon.

As an aside, well done to pldelisle for proving beyond irreconciable doubt that there is, indeed, 100% bonafide information in this thread.

Azrael.
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If, for the same number of (sustained) FLOPs you use half the power, fine. But if you don't, you are not better because you only use 50w.

A 5700XT not underclocked with 40 CUs acan make 8.6 TFLOPS sustained, 10 TFLOPS turbo. This is far from what we have in the macbook pro.

desktop hardware with desktop tdp is far better than severely downclocked mobile hardware.
We clearly won’t get a 225w GPU in a 27 inch iMac, but if apple can make the same sort of sorcery in this as the MBP, we might have something nice.

I'm looking forward to some iMac gpu sorcery.

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

The sorcery is essentially having low-power HBM2 memory on-package, so you have far less power consumption in total. Wouldn't be surprised at all to see a top of the line Radeon Pro 5700 with 8/16 GB HBM2 memory on-package for a crazy 1000 USD upgrade

 

[askunk]

Argh...what the fusion... please give us also a GDDR6 option then

 

[pldelisle]

Argh... please give us also a GDDR6 option then

That's gonna be a lower-powered Radeon Pro 5600 option. Less power for the GPU, more power for VRAM, same target power budget.

 

[askunk]

But different final amount in my bank account.

 

[Homy]

Vega 54 is rated to about 10 TFLOPS so this would have around 6-7 TFLOP (extrapolated from 2/3 of Geekbench for Vega 54). If it only draws 50W, they can put in two of these in an iMac to get 12-14 TFLOPS. TFLOPS. Still, that solution would be too expensive so that will not happen. 40 CU is more than the vanilla 5700M. Sorry people, but these GPU would fit nicely in a iMac enclosure.

As I said above, "mobile" definition has little meaning. Compute/ power ratio and total compute is interesting parameters not what they are binned at from marketing.

I guess you mean Vega 56. 54 doesn't exists. FP32 for 5600M is 5.27 TFLOPS and for Vega 56 8.96.

 

[DrRadon]

12 hours till Last of Us 2 kills the rest of the wait.

 

[iPadified]

Ryzen is hardware.

Software is another game

OpenGL is dead anyway. It lives on Linux, but Vulkan is more and more popular. But not supported on macOS since ... Apple A-chip won't be compliant with OpenCL, so Apple never wanted to have compatibility with Vulkan, which integrated OpenCL2.0. You see it ...? ahahha

The era of cross-platform GPU rendering is over. Three times the maintenance cost now. And Windows have what ? DirectX but no CAD uses DirectX ? So ..... I don't know what's going to happen seriously.
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Yeah, 150w for the 27 inch, the 23 will likely stay with NAVI12 with 20-24 CUs.

Doing what I'm doing with a 50w GPU is impossible. It can be sure impressive to pack such amount of power in 50W, but it's nowhere near what power user really needs in a desktop form factor.

If, for the same number of (sustained) FLOPs you use half the power, fine. But if you don't, you are not better because you only use 50w.

A 5700XT not underclocked with 40 CUs acan make 8.6 TFLOPS sustained, 10 TFLOPS turbo. This is far from what we have in the macbook pro.

desktop hardware with desktop tdp is far better than severely downclocked mobile hardware.
We clearly won’t get a 225w GPU in a 27 inch iMac, but if apple can make the same sort of sorcery in this as the MBP, we might have something nice.

I know, you need max and not interested in power draw for ML but are you representative for the average iMac user? "Far better"? If the 5600M has 6.5 TFLOPS then 5700XT is only 32% better. 32% better for nearly five time the power draw. Sounds like really inefficient.

Fully agree, we can hope for similar magic. The normal 5700M has about 8 TFLOPS at 180 W so an Apple version of 5700M might reach higher and still draw less power and actually exceed the performance of the standard 5700XT. Who can complain of that and who cares it is an "M" instead of an "XT" in the end? This GPU will not be for the price sensitive ones .

 

[gusping]

12 hours till Last of Us 2 kills the rest of the wait.

I’m angry at all games coming out between now and Nov. Should have just waited for PS5/XSX.

 

[iPadified]

I guess you mean Vega 56. 54 doesn't exists. FP32 for 5600M is 5.27 TFLOPS and for Vega 56 8.96.

Sorry for the mistake. I eyeballed form the video that Geekbench of about 2/3 of Vega 56 and extrapolated to TFLOPS. We are talking few ten of % deviations in compute and many hundred % in power draw. The conclusion still stands.

 

[DrRadon]

I’m angry at all games coming out between now and Nov. Should have just waited for PS5/XSX.

All games released for PS4 must run on PS5 starting with new releases from this month i think.

 

[gusping]

All games released for PS4 must run on PS5 starting with new releases from this month i think.

Doesn’t mean they will be opitmised for it though

 

[Azrael9]

I know, you need max and not interested in power draw for ML but are you representative for the average iMac user? "Far better"? If the 5600M has 6.5 TFLOPS then 5700XT is only 32% better. 32% better for nearly five time the power draw. Sounds like really inefficient.

Fully agree, we can hope for similar magic. The normal 5700M has about 8 TFLOPS at 180 W so an Apple version of 5700M might reach higher and still draw less power and actually exceed the performance of the standard 5700XT. Who can complain of that and who cares it is an "M" instead of an "XT" in the end? This GPU will not be for the price sensitive ones .

I don't mind GPU semantics. I just want decent gpus as standard. Even better as BTO. So 'M' vs 'XT' is academic.

Ultimately, the iMac is a desktop and I expect desktop components. The iMac 'pretender to the throne' occupies the former Mac Tower pricing range. As such, this time, I expect the iMac to finally 'step up' and to 'grow up' to assume such a lofty throne. As such, the iMac Pro has show you can use desktop parts with adequate cooling and get most of the their performance.

But that has to come at a rational value to the customer. £800 BTOs is just sheer rip off territory.

I don't want to pay £800-£1000 BTOs for a compromised laptop card. Which I'm sure it won't be. The iMac has a larger power envelope and it's not rocket science to downclock a desktop gpu for the likes of Apple.

An undervolted CPU/GPU in the iMac is just fine with me. If it allows desktop components with non-boutique pricing.

I think there will be a 5700 as standard. XT as BTO. £400- BTO, I can cope with for that extra 30%(?)

Azrael.

 

[DrRadon]

Doesn’t mean they will be opitmised for it though

LOU2 is a system seller, you better bet that they bring PS4Pro and PS5 boosts to the game because Sony payed Naughty Dog some pretty coin to do so.

I really am exited, i litteraly know nothing about the game besides what they showed at E3 two (?) years ago when they had the tent presentation and that it got reviews that are overwhelmingly positive.

 

[Azrael9]

Argh...what the fusion... please give us also a GDDR6 option then

For a mainstream iMac with a higher gpu thermal budget...GDDR6 will be mighty fine.

It's not like Polaris 580, Vega 56 or Vega 64 are thermal saints. And they've all been in an iMac.

Azrael.
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Doesn’t mean they will be opitmised for it though

You'll get some great launch games on the PS5.

But the truly astonishing stuff will arrive later when the dev's really optimise stuff and get to know the system.

PS5. An astonishing console.

£399 for the 'download' version?
£499 for the 'blue ray' version?

(Prices have been muted...on YouTube sites...)

Azrael.
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I know, you need max and not interested in power draw for ML but are you representative for the average iMac user?

The iMac 'represents' the Mac Tower price range as was. 'Pro.' £1750-£5k and upwards. There's nothing 'average' about that price range. There's nothing really 'typical' about that product or userbase.

We pay more. We demand more.

The iMac has become a more demanding machine over time.

The iMac user base has become more demanding over time.

...and I'd suggest this trend is likely to continue.

Azrael.

 

[John90976]

Alright, we are just about 4 days away and Apple's new GPU option on the 16"MBP gives me some slight optimism in that they wont be utterly trash GPU's. I think we need to get down to internal predictions as the hottest debate of the thread so far has been about the class of GPU in the new iMac, something I am very excited about. My optimism lies in what I'm thinking the base model may be: 256GB SSD, i5 10600K, AMD 5500M 4GB GDDR6. 16GB 3733MHZ RAM (🤞) and this will be $1599 for the 23" at best. An additional $200-$400 walk up for each of the next two available graphics cards, hopefully at least a 5700 in some capacity that wont cost an ARM and a leg. Everyone please set me straight

 

[gugy]

Won't happen. You are asking for too much.

BUT

Maybe it might. Its not unreasonable and to be honest, iMac will get released, iMac Pro previewed and mini XDR showcased.

In this scenario, I would either go for iMac + extra screen

OR

the 32" iMac Pro

Monday better be good : )

Well possibly. That's why I said "hope".
Out of my "hopes" the only one I think it's a bit hard is the iMac Pro. Adding a 6K display might bring the base unit price way beyond $5k. Unless they use a non XDR tech on it to lower the entry price model.
The normal iMac seems reasonable and the stand alone display tech is already there, it's just a matter to skin it as a single unit.

 

[Azrael9]

Alright, we are just about 4 days away and Apple's new GPU option on the 16"MBP gives me some slight optimism in that they wont be utterly trash GPU's. I think we need to get down to internal predictions as the hottest debate of the thread so far has been about the class of GPU in the new iMac, something I am very excited about. My optimism lies in what I'm thinking the base model may be: 256GB SSD, i5 10600K, AMD 5500M 4GB GDDR6. 16GB 3733MHZ RAM (🤞) and this will be $1599 for the 23" at best. An additional $200-$400 walk up for each of the next two available graphics cards, hopefully at least a 5700 in some capacity that wont cost an ARM and a leg. Everyone please set me straight

Not long now. We've had the 'leaks' over the specs. GPU wise and other. (See rest of thread for details.) Twitter leaks were quite explicit as are other leaks on the RDNA designations for 'Mac' machines. So 5500-5600-5700s (with BTO XTs) aren't that 'out there.'

I think the 23 inch iMacs will be attractively prices and specced machines.

I don't think you are too far away in your thinking there.

The 256 SSD and 16 Ram sizes are fine. Making even the lower tier iMac good value and should boost sales. And that GPU should be fine with the 4k display.

Any BTO gpu will turn it into a really nice gaming rig. BTO around $200-400 seems fine.

Azrael.

 

[DrRadon]

Rate my rig xD

iMac (21.5-inch Late 2012) - Geekbench

Benchmark results for an iMac (21.5-inch Late 2012) with an Intel Core i5-3470S processor.

browser.geekbench.com

iMac (21.5-inch Late 2012) - Geekbench

Benchmark results for an iMac (21.5-inch Late 2012) with an Intel Core i5-3470S processor.

browser.geekbench.com

 

[Azrael9]

Well possibly. That's why I said "hope".
Out of my "hopes" the only one I think it's a bit hard is the iMac Pro. Adding a 6K display might bring the base unit price way beyond $5k. Unless they use a non XDR tech on it to lower the entry price model.
The normal iMac seems reasonable and the stand alone display tech is already there, it's just a matter to skin it as a single unit.

Dell's 8k display is £3400?

Didn't the 5k display from Dell cost £5k before Apple put one in an iMac?

My point. Displays cost alot less than Dell or Apple charge for them?

How much does a 6k panel cost without the bells and whistles cost to make? (-minus Apple's mark up.)

I'd love a 32 inch 6k iMac. But perhaps 'we're' reaching there. Even the 'ming' rumours suggest a version only at the 27 inch iMac Pro later in the year...so maybe Apple are keeping the XDR and 6k as a Mac Pro exclusive for now.

But I'd interested in a version without the fluff at a much cheaper price. You know? Like with the old Apple studio display which was only £1k...

Azrael.
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Rate my rig xD

View attachment 925025

iMac (21.5-inch Late 2012) - Geekbench

Benchmark results for an iMac (21.5-inch Late 2012) with an Intel Core i5-3470S processor.

browser.geekbench.com

View attachment 925026

iMac (21.5-inch Late 2012) - Geekbench

Benchmark results for an iMac (21.5-inch Late 2012) with an Intel Core i5-3470S processor.

browser.geekbench.com

That your iMac? 2012?

Well, it's better than mine. It's working! (Mine's dead, Jim...)

So it's scoring wayyyyy higher than nothing.

Azrael.

 

[Freida]

I lived in UK for 12 years and I got used to.
Honestly, the complaining mentality drove me nuts at first until I realise that without complaining there isn't much change.

And I really realised that when I arrived in Quebec and people here are content with horsecrap. I would send them all to UK for a year to learn to complain and learn to demand more. Suddenly the food, customer service, services etc. would improve. Right now, here it feels like they live 10-20 years behind rest of the world.

So be proud to be a complaining brit. It has got tons of benefits

I’m British, and we complain a lot. You’ll get used to it.

 

[John90976]

Not long now. We've had the 'leaks' over the specs. GPU wise and other. (See rest of thread for details.) Twitter leaks were quite explicit as are other leaks on the RDNA designations for 'Mac' machines. So 5500-5600-5700s (with BTO XTs) aren't that 'out there.'

I think the 23 inch iMacs will be attractively prices and specced machines.

I don't think you are too far away in your thinking there.

The 256 SSD and 16 Ram sizes are fine. Making even the lower tier iMac good value and should boost sales. And that GPU should be fine with the 4k display.

Any BTO gpu will turn it into a really nice gaming rig. BTO around $200-400 seems fine.

Azrael.

This 23" in mid tier with a 4K 21" option in the low would be a nice range, especially if they could get one under $1000. The 2015 4K 21" is always around for $500-$600 used and with some slight modernization could make iMac an awesome line for a lot more people if Apple wanted to keep deriving value from that design, which I am sitting in front of right now, a 2017 model, utilizing its AMD 560X to the max, and it looks great despite the 8" bezel, but Monday cannot come soon enough.

 

[DrRadon]

That your iMac? 2012?

Well, it's better than mine. It's working! (Mine's dead, Jim...)

So it's scoring wayyyyy higher than nothing.

Azrael.

Yes it is mine.
Actually i am quiet surprised comparing it to other Macs at Geekbench. Single core only about a third below the best scoring 27 inch iMac, multicore the best (non pro) iMac is only about four times better. Explains why i am actually happy with what i got (asides the videoedeting issues).

Now, when it comes to the Metal Score i am looking at a 20x improvement with the Radeon Pro 580X, not even bringing the vega 48 into the conversation yet entering at 30x what i got now. Thats going to be interesting, but i assume the 5k dealio also takes away from that new power.

Almost makes me consider going for eGPU and have more RAM build into this one... just that eGPU dos not (?) work on a machine this old without USB-C i believe. Ah, it's okay, time for something new.

 

[gusping]

I lived in UK for 12 years and I got used to.
Honestly, the complaining mentality drove me nuts at first until I realise that without complaining there isn't much change.

And I really realised that when I arrived in Quebec and people here are content with horsecrap. I would send them all to UK for a year to learn to complain and learn to demand more. Suddenly the food, customer service, services etc. would improve. Right now, here it feels like they live 10-20 years behind rest of the world.

So be proud to be a complaining brit. It has got tons of benefits

Hahahahahah, i love this. Best post of the thread.
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Rate my rig xD

View attachment 925025

iMac (21.5-inch Late 2012) - Geekbench

Benchmark results for an iMac (21.5-inch Late 2012) with an Intel Core i5-3470S processor.

browser.geekbench.com

View attachment 925026

iMac (21.5-inch Late 2012) - Geekbench

Benchmark results for an iMac (21.5-inch Late 2012) with an Intel Core i5-3470S processor.

browser.geekbench.com

Even my Mac mini destoys that. You should be ashamed
New, fully specced iMac for you i think.

Well done for keeping it that long!

 

[zerozoneice]

i wouldn't be surprised to see a worse Navi 20 bundled into iMacs, rather than a better Navi 10.
But all in all, this Navi 12 (5xxx) seems the logical choice, even for Apple

as far as design goes, just look at the 16" MBP (or Ipad Pro for that matter) and replace (in your mind ) the keyboard part with a standing foot, scale the screen to 23" and there's your iMac redesign.

my bet is on Navi12 for 23/30" and Navi2X for the iMac Pro later in the fall.