Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?

[iPadified]

Furthermore, if they go for an XDR screen type of design, the XDR screen is only 2.7 cm thick. Packing a 125W CPU and a heat sink in 2.7 cm (minus the screen, isolation between screen and CPU/GPU and the case), will be difficult. The reason that the power hungry XDR screen can work with such a thin case is because the heat is generated over the whole area which is easier to get rid of while CPU/GPU works as very hot point sources which is more difficult to deal with. A 4-5 cm thick case will look very strange. 65W CPU and corresponding mobile GPU is a better choice in that case.

XDR screen type of design of a new iMac is not unlikely given Apple design language changes - out with the round and in with the square. Having an XDR Pro screen centrally placed with the iMac as a sidekick would be a nice setup.

As with long threads, we have been here before I think. Just idling our time.

 

[sublunar]

I believe it is the same screen. It is possible that Apple has very limited supply of the screen, so is prioritising the lower volume, higher margin iMac Pro over the standard iMac, but I prefer to think, for purely selfish reasons, that it is because a new iMac is imminent.

It tallies with the assumption that any 'new' iMac would be using the same panels though. They may not want to stockpile prebuilds of the existing 'old' spec machines that will immediately lose value upon a refresh. In this case Inventory in the retail channels will be running low deliberately.

 

[askunk]

I don't understand why are you still considering the LP CPUs. It makes no sense at all to have iMacs with weaker CPUs than the mini. The previous iMacs had the 9900K, I would expect the new to get the 10900K.

Re the higher power of Intel's 10th gen, it can be overcome adopting the cooling system of the iMP, which would be idiotic not to adopt (unless they redesign the whole system) since it matches an iMac with SSD, which is what the new iMac is going to be.

I don't understand either the argument about "Apple not releasing a redesign if the machines are - as it seems - almost ready to ship". We made exactly the same argument in 2019 just before the new iMacs were about to be released.
Everybody was expecting a redesign, which is why ALL the reviews talk about how the bezels are too big.

They had years of development. Intel delay on their 10nm node was very well clear over a year ago.

There is nothing telling that it will be a redesign for sure but, at the same time, there is no sign at all that it will be the same machine.

Every single mac (mini included) which abandoned the HDDs as primary drives went through a redesign. The iMP is the only example of a "simple" internal redesign but the reason is clearly economy of scale (casing and production line) and marketing (we all know Apple had to rush to bring a Pro machine given the absence of a MP).

Oh and BTW, all signs point to a release of nVIDIA and AMD new gen GPUs by September. (the 5700s were introduced about a year ago)

We could be lucky and see machines with exclusive supplies of RDNA2... or - more likely, unfortunately - see them just in the iMP by the end of the year.

 

[Migranya]

^
AMD RX 5000 series are very good for the iMac purposes, I think Apple will save the RDNA2 GPUs for the iMac Pro.

By the way, in Catalonia (Spain) I haven't seen any refurbished iMac this week. Very weird.

 

[iPadified]

I don't understand why are you still considering the LP CPUs. It makes no sense at all to have iMacs with weaker CPUs than the mini. The previous iMacs had the 9900K, I would expect the new to get the 10900K.

I am not considering a 65W part specifically, but contemplating the difficulties to use a 125W part in a XDR Pro type of design. I think iMac will get iMP cooling but I cannot see a XDR type of case for that. I might be wrong but hot CPU/GPU in the iMac has been a concern for years.

I think 95-99% of the "consumers" would do just fine with 65W parts. It seem that the 65W parts are having nearly the same perfomance as the 9900K 95W parts, particularly if the latter is not running full speed due to heat constraints.

I also looked at availability of CPUs in general not the 65W parts specifically.

 

[gusping]

I am not considering a 65W part specifically, but contemplating the difficulties to use a 125W part in a XDR Pro type of design. I think iMac will get iMP cooling but I cannot see a XDR type of case for that. I might be wrong but hot CPU/GPU in the iMac has been a concern for years.

I think 95-99% of the "consumers" would do just fine with 65W parts. It seem that the 65W parts are having nearly the same perfomance as the 9900K 95W parts, particularly if the latter is not running full speed due to heat constraints.

I also looked at availability of CPUs in general not the 65W parts specifically.

I hope they put in an overclocked 10900k running at 5+ Ghz on all cores. That would be perfect.

/s

 

[DrRadon]

While i stick by my guess of 3.6.2020, specs bump only. Today is the 22. One month till WWDC, if a new iMac is not ready to be actually ordered by me a month from now i would not know what to say anymore.

 

[Wolf1701]

I hope they put in an overclocked 10900k running at 5+ Ghz on all cores. That would be perfect.

/s

they have already tryed that in 'terminator 2' it was the T-1000

 

[AirdanMR]

Intel's 10th gen cpus are really hot... a TDP of 65w makes a lot of sense. Also this gen there's a variant "f series" without iGPU, cheaper and probably with more easy to control thermals. There's an i7 10700f Cinebench R20 benchmark leaked scoring a bit more than a ryzen 7 3700x and that's almost i9-9900k rendering performance.

My guess is CPU options could be:

i3 10300 4/8
i5 10400F 6/12
i7 10700F 8/16
i9 10900F 10/20


i3 with iGPU for the base 21/23 model, which would match the rumor of the "new cheaper 23 inch iMac" and the i5, i7, i9 "f" 65w for the rest of models with dedicated RX5000 gGPU. They are going to be really good workstations, but they need to run cool, ideal situation would be 65w CPU + iMac Pro cooling system. I would buy one the first day.

 

[askunk]

I am not considering a 65W part specifically, but contemplating the difficulties to use a 125W part in a XDR Pro type of design. I think iMac will get iMP cooling but I cannot see a XDR type of case for that. I might be wrong but hot CPU/GPU in the iMac has been a concern for years.

I think 95-99% of the "consumers" would do just fine with 65W parts.

The XDR design could help bring even more cooling to the iMac if they adopt it.
As I said a few posts ago: the iMP has the same dimensions as the iMac and hosts up to 140W TDP CPUs and up to 295W TDP GPUs. There is no technical obstacle to implement the 10th gen Intel 125W chips.

95-99% of the consumers you talk about may look for a base model. When we talk about the 10900K we are referring to the high-end model. It would make no sense to design a computer just to host the high-end chips. They will be all based on the same design. And the iMac is not only for consumers, but also for prosumers. Right now the iMac top end can beat the IMP in the base config. I couldn't say the same of the mac mini.
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Intel's 10th gen cpus are really hot... a TDP of 65w makes a lot of sense. Also this gen there's a variant "f series" without iGPU, cheaper and probably with more easy to control thermals. There's an i7 10700f Cinebench R20 benchmark leaked scoring a bit more than a ryzen 7 3700x and that's almost i9-9900k rendering performance.

My guess is CPU options could be:

i3 10300 4/8
i5 10400F 6/12
i7 10700F 8/16
i9 10900F 10/20

Ok guys... so Apple would choose a worse chip than the previous model. Moreover, it would loose the Quicksync feature given you think they will choose CPUs over APUs.

Look at the iMac history: it's been years that they use the K version. The last model, even though it didn't sport the IMP cooling, was capable of avoiding thermal throttling on the i9. How would you justify a degrade in performance on the new generation?

Buy the new iMac... it's 20% slower than the 2019 model!

 

[dn325ci]

This thread is getting a little crazy. I love people who simultaneously know little and know much and have a lot of time! ??

 

[askunk]

Apple closes a deal with Intel to get the highest clock mobile CPUs for their MBPs... It is basically impossible that they would go for the low-end SKUs for the next iMac. Just impossible.

 

[iPadified]

The XDR design could help bring even more cooling to the iMac if they adopt it.
As I said a few posts ago: the iMP has the same dimensions as the iMac and hosts up to 140W TDP CPUs and up to 295W TDP GPUs. There is no technical obstacle to implement the 10th gen Intel 125W chips.

Will the cooling system of the iMP fit into a XDR case that is about 3 cm thick? I think not, but I might be wrong. There is no doubt that the iMP can cool the 125W chip and an even power hungry GPU.

 

[Azrael9]

Unfortunately, still far from being that big ... But still...

?

No, I don't play games with that.

View attachment 917377

Nice rig.

I'll be having a PC workstation at some point. I may pull the trigger at the same time as Apple does on the iMac. Probably going PC Tower/iMac. I'll try hackingtoshing the PC.

Azrael.
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Will the cooling system of the iMP fit into a XDR case that is about 3 cm thick? I think not, but I might be wrong. There is no doubt that the iMP can cool the 125W chip and an even power hungry GPU.

3 cms. That's fine for the depth of the iMac. I spend my time looking at the front of it not admiring the tapering which, for me, was a step back in some ways. eg. DVD, SD slot was there and the sound system didn't seem as bass-ee afterwards. I'd rather more room for better components and a better cooling system. If an extra 1cm or inch is needed. Do it.

In the £1700-£3560 price range of the iMac I feel we should be getting better components and better cooling for the money.

Azrael.
[automerge]1590151474[/automerge]

This thread is getting a little crazy. I love people who simultaneously know little and know much and have a lot of time! ??

Aye. That's why you and me are here.

Crazy? We haven't got to the meltdown when the substandard specs are launched with a bigger price.

"All the best freaks are here. I said all the best freaks are here...please stop staring at me." Fish & Marillion.

Alot of people have a lot of time right about now. As for knowing too little. You can never know enough. Ergo fishing in the rumours pool.

You'll not hear those whispers at Apple Stores...they'll happily sell you out of date kit at a premium right now.

Azrael.
[automerge]1590151858[/automerge]

The XDR design could help bring even more cooling to the iMac if they adopt it.
As I said a few posts ago: the iMP has the same dimensions as the iMac and hosts up to 140W TDP CPUs and up to 295W TDP GPUs. There is no technical obstacle to implement the 10th gen Intel 125W chips.

The XDR (with all those holes in the back...) and that thicker design at the edges seems like a great design pointer for cooling the iMac. Plus the design language is more up to date in terms of Apple phones, pads, Mac Pro, Macbook Pro and the XDR, ofc.

There was a review that said the fans don't go crazy with the current i9 chip in the 2019 model. So, maybe a touch of undervolting there so the cpus can peg at a sustained speed/load.

Good comment.

Azrael.
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While i stick by my guess of 3.6.2020, specs bump only. Today is the 22. One month till WWDC, if a new iMac is not ready to be actually ordered by me a month from now i would not know what to say anymore.

I think that's as good a guess as any. I can see what you're saying.

But 'spec' bump goes against the grain of 'substantial' if only in spec terms.

If we don't get that 'substantial' boost in specs by the date you say eg. 3.6.2020...then it has to be WWDC...?

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

^
AMD RX 5000 series are very good for the iMac purposes, I think Apple will save the RDNA2 GPUs for the iMac Pro.

By the way, in Catalonia (Spain) I haven't seen any refurbished iMac this week. Very weird.

It's got to be the RX 5000 series. 5600XT with 5700XT BTO is where we need to be on a £1700-£3560 price range.

RDNA2. It's still not in sight. We're looking at the 'fall' at the earliest. And the next gen consoles will be getting 1st choice I should imagine. With PCs shipping in volume later, perhaps?

The RDNA2 in an iMac Pro (if it survives...) will probably be next year.

Azrael.
[automerge]1590152534[/automerge]

I don't understand why are you still considering the LP CPUs. It makes no sense at all to have iMacs with weaker CPUs than the mini. The previous iMacs had the 9900K, I would expect the new to get the 10900K.

Re the higher power of Intel's 10th gen, it can be overcome adopting the cooling system of the iMP, which would be idiotic not to adopt (unless they redesign the whole system) since it matches an iMac with SSD, which is what the new iMac is going to be.

I don't understand either the argument about "Apple not releasing a redesign if the machines are - as it seems - almost ready to ship". We made exactly the same argument in 2019 just before the new iMacs were about to be released.
Everybody was expecting a redesign, which is why ALL the reviews talk about how the bezels are too big.

They had years of development. Intel delay on their 10nm node was very well clear over a year ago.

There is nothing telling that it will be a redesign for sure but, at the same time, there is no sign at all that it will be the same machine.

Every single mac (mini included) which abandoned the HDDs as primary drives went through a redesign. The iMP is the only example of a "simple" internal redesign but the reason is clearly economy of scale (casing and production line) and marketing (we all know Apple had to rush to bring a Pro machine given the absence of a MP).

Oh and BTW, all signs point to a release of nVIDIA and AMD new gen GPUs by September. (the 5700s were introduced about a year ago)

We could be lucky and see machines with exclusive supplies of RDNA2... or - more likely, unfortunately - see them just in the iMP by the end of the year.

I'll be impressed if the RDNA2 ships by September. I'm getting the end of year shipping in volume early next year vibe. Happy to be wrong on that.

You're right about the 5700s being old. What keeps Apple from putting them in an iMac for so long. Polaris is old news.

Decent post. Lots of common sense in it. Hard to disagree with.

Apple have had plenty of time to make the next iMac a substantial release. The 2019 release was minimal effort.

Azrael.
[automerge]1590152881[/automerge]

Ah, the age old argument of "look what you could get if you would not buy overpriced apple".
You do know better than that, common.
[automerge]1590086134[/automerge]

Nothing says out of date like Apple's desktop line up.

Mac Mini. Crap iG. (Whether you pay the entry or top line price.)
iMac. £1700. (Mediocre gpu and a year out of date.
Mac Pro. £6k. (580...just crepe for a machine of that price bracket.)

And you're right, this low balling of dGPU is 'Age old.'

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

As I am not an artist standing over my desk to draw, the Surface Studio's design is anathema (Azrael insert: because you're not an artist?) to me and if Apple turned the iMac into it, I'd no longer be an iMac customer.

If you're not an artist...why are you on a Mac?

Ironically and seriously, if you're not an artist then you won't get it.

I thought the Mac was the quinessential creator's machine?

*Photoshop, Illustrator (thinks Wacom...rather than a 'bar of soap' to draw with...) and Indesign.

Zbrush. Poser Pro. Blender 3D. Painter 2020.

If Apple turned the iMac into the Surface Studio, I'd replace you as the iMac customer.

To 'turn' the iMac into a Surface Studio you'll have to go Wacom eg. 24 inch or 32 inch.

Wacom Cintiq Pro 24 (pen input only)

Designed for professional artists and designers who want to add a world-class pen-on screen creative experience to their Mac or PC, Wacom Cintiq Pro offers Wacom’s most powerful array of capabilities in a creative pen display World’s most natural pen technology with 4x greater accuracy and...

estore.wacom.com

£1900 inc VAT approaching the Surface Studio 2 in screen size. So if you bought the cheapest iMac at £1700 and £1900 Wacom. £3600.

Microsoft Surface Studio 2 review: in a class of its own

Stunning all-in-one PC that slides to become drawing tablet is held back by high price and old chips

www.theguardian.com

I think this is a good review. And, yes, they compare (name drop) the iMac and iMac Pro to it. The talk about the pro and the con.

Desktop PCs - Cheap Desktop PC Deals | Currys

Take advantage of amazing deals on our Desktop PCs range here at Currys. Shop online and get free delivery or order & collect in store.

www.currys.co.uk

£3k in a sale. We know about design trade offs eg. touch vs specs. But I'd like to see Apple show more ambition with the next iMac. One day, on Mac ARM...the iMac will probably just be a giant iPad. iOS is touch. What happens when Mac goes ARM? :O

But it's the design entering Apple's back yard. The day M$ were launching this...I was embarrassed that Apple's retort was the 'touch strip' on a Macbook.

And why would I stand over my desk to draw? (Sitting. Far more comfortable to draw. I'll take a stretch break every 1 hour...)

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

Nice rig.

I'll be having a PC workstation at some point. I may pull the trigger at the same time as Apple does on the iMac. Probably going PC Tower/iMac. I'll try hackingtoshing the PC.

Azrael.

It runs Linux. It's a 9 years old workstation platform with RTX 2080. But for compute purpose, it's fine. macOS is way too limiting. Not having CUDA support is simply impossible for me as everything is coded in CUDA. And macOS cannot be installed as a Pure Darwin distribution without GUI. And I'm profoundly against any form of Hackintosh. I prefer having to fully pay two computers instead of building a Hackintosh.

Anyway, gonna sell this thing after my master finish in a couple of weeks to pay the new 2020 iMac I'm going to have much better than this rig at my future job.

 

[DrRadon]

I think that's as good a guess as any. I can see what you're saying.

But 'spec' bump goes against the grain of 'substantial' if only in spec terms.

If we don't get that 'substantial' boost in specs by the date you say eg. 3.6.2020...then it has to be WWDC...?

Azrael.

Since Marc Gurman reported a substantial update after this iMac should have been released in March (according to prosser) i belief he was talking about the ARM Mini LED Upgrade that was pushed back to 2021.
I beliefe that WWDC got pushed back two weeks to fit in iMac on 3.6.2020.

 

[pldelisle]

I think it's been pushed by two weeks because of pandemic more than because they want to fit a product release. Apple is getting their employees back to office in Cupertino. Things went more slowly since march in every American companies. This is just normal an event as "big" as WWDC got pushed by two weeks to wrap everything up.

 

[Azrael9]

Since Marc Gurman reported a substantial update after this iMac should have been released in March (according to prosser) i belief he was talking about the ARM Mini LED Upgrade that was pushed back to 2021.
I beliefe that WWDC got pushed back two weeks to fit in iMac on 3.6.2020.

You might have a point there.

There's clearly some sort of rational for Apple pushing back or 'holding' a product that is 'ready' or 'ready to ship' (in boxes in warehouses? Did they get the Intel i10 chips early?)

We'll get to find out what 'ready' means real soon.

Azrael.
[automerge]1590155725[/automerge]

It runs Linux. It's a 9 years old workstation platform with RTX 2080. But for compute purpose, it's fine. macOS is way too limiting. Not having CUDA support is simply impossible for me as everything is coded in CUDA. And macOS cannot be installed as a Pure Darwin distribution without GUI. And I'm profoundly against any form of Hackintosh. I prefer having to fully pay two computers instead of building a Hackintosh.

Anyway, gonna sell this thing after my master finish in a couple of weeks to pay the new 2020 iMac I'm going to have much better than this rig at my future job.

Well I hope your Masters goes ok. (Mine was an MA in Computer Animation 'back when.') Having a 'substantial' iMac update to celebrate will bring good cheer to your Masters accomplishment.

I hear what you're saying re: Cuda. It's a shame politics gets in the way of what is best for the customer.

RE: both AMD cpus and Nvidia gpus. It goes against what Cook says in terms of 'Best deal for the best price.'

I'll be having two computers. I'm going dual platform. Mac/PC. So that's iMac. And a Tower PC (I want that core count for 3d rendering. Probably a 12 core. For the £400-ish price. Can't argue with that.)

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

Master in machine learning applied to medical imaging isn't easy. But it's almost over I'm writing my thesis. I have an accepted conference paper and a submitted journal article. Not bad, but research is definitively not for me. I'm definitively more a software engineer than a researcher.

But as you said, iMac to celebrate it ! Anyway, my first job will likely be remote with the current pandemic.

I find the dual computer setup being really useful. The machine on which you work isn't running at full load while you work on it. Having the kind of workload I do on the same machine that you work is not recommended at all. And yeah, NVIDIA politics sucks with Apple, but it's also a "good" thing for NVIDIA for which CUDA is 80% of company's revenue with data centers. Giving your driver's source code to let Apple play with it can represent a non negligible risk for the company. AMD always had an open source driver (which is freakingly better than their proprietary driver) so it was a very logical choice when you are rebuilding a graphics stack from scratch (Metal).

 

[xgman]

I picture the next imac to look something like this Dell, chin and all, except the guts will be within the monitor like now:

New Dell OptiPlex And Precision Workstations Launched

Dell announced a new lineup of OptiPlex and Precision workstations; two OptiPlex, and nine Precision, all outfitted with 10th Gen Intel Core Processors

www.storagereview.com

 

[ondert]

I really don't understand why some people think new iMacs can go with lower tdp chips for better cooling. That is ridiculous and looks exactly the way as Tim Cook would think... Heat of new cpus shouldn't be the problem here but the subpar cooling system of iMac should be and it is the cooling system that has to change!

 

[Azrael9]

Inspiron 27 All in One | Dell UK

27-inch all-in-one desktop elegantly designed for streaming or searching. Featuring an InfinityEdge display, Dell Cinema and a pop-up webcam.

www.dell.com

That 'Infinity' Border of theirs. I wonder if we'll see that 'trim' on the iMac?

And the 'chin' is smaller on the Dell too.

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

The stand is so awful ?

And uses "U" Low power CPU.

Brrr...