Will you leave the Apple ecosystem because of CSAM?

[nickdalzell1]

I always hate having to use the work PC. It runs Windows 10 but is so full of bloatware (she's got MalwareBytes and CCleaner always popping up stuff and 99% ram usage, CPU pegged at 100% all the trime) but she's got literally a hundred icons splattered all over the desktop since she never used the Start Menu (I hate the menu as well but at least I know how to properly pin apps to the taskbar).

My grandmother is even worse. she's got everything magnified 1000X so the whole desktop is five icons two inches square each!

Here's my Linux desktop:

 

[Mendota]

I don't know about that.... you may be right that you can tame it back down (until the next major update when you have to do it again), but by no means was that piece of **** on my mom's computer "staying out of my way." And the operating system has ads built into it, which at least isn't hidden at all.

I mean yeah, I'm sure it's good for many things, but if it is those are just things I don't do.

You're right that Apple is very controlling about what you use, but not necessarily about how you use it, until fairly recently. It's become unacceptable for me now, so pretty soon I won't be using either one of these OS's.

I do admit to being a long-time Windows basher though. It's not new, but Windows 10 seems Orwellian even for Windows.

We all have our preferences and needs. If you want or need more control with Windows, using the pro addition is always an option. That is what is on most of my computers. Someone like your mother is probably better off with the home addition. Many casual users are unable or unwilling to maintain and update their computers, to include security updates. This is why Microsoft has taken the stance that it has on updates and other security options.

And again, Apple has always been about: "Our Way or the Highway". Their stance in the past, just like now has always been: "We know better than you." Someone like yourself well versed in Unix and Linux could always use the command line to override some of the control Apple tries to exert, but that is not something the typical Apple user can do.

 

[DNichter]

Nope. No issue with it on my end. If it can help kids and Apple doesn’t abuse the technology, I’m good.

 

[nickdalzell1]

I'm no casual user but I hate updates since they always change things for the sake of doing so. Always turning a beautiful UI into a flat cartoon and moving around vital functions behind hamburger menus or gestures that make no sense. Which is why I always disable all updates. The days of updates actually improving things have long since gone.

A lot of complaints about older phones 'slowing down with time' is due to running newer and newer updated apps that demand more as well. My Thunderbolt would probably choke running one version newer of any app installed on it. Thankfully I'm smart and kept them all the same versions which either launched preinstalled on the phone or ones around in 2011 when it was new, so it never slows down.

 

[StralyanPithecus]

WHY, ARE YOU HERE?

View attachment 1822080

Because someone must tell those pedophiles to stop crying about being controlled.

 

[RedRage]

I really relate to this.

I'm planning on buying a nice traditional watch too because I noticed how much more invasive notifications became in my life when they buzzed my wrist instead of my pocket. I find there's something grounding about having an analog clock dial because it graphically contextualizes the current time so much better than a simple digital readout. The dial displays not just the current time but also reminds you of the time you've already spent + the time you have left for a given day.

I'm thinking I might wear a mechanical watch on one wrist and a fitness tracker that doesn't do anything except track my fitness on the other (ideally no screen) as dumb as that might look. If that becomes too much of a nuisance I'll maybe wear the fitness tracker (or Apple Watch if I stick with it) only when exercising instead of all the time. The problem with many fitness trackers is that there's very few ways to guarantee they're not uploading all of your health data to their cloud.

Thats what I do. Several months ago I got tired of always being connected with the Apple Watch. So I got a traditional watch and I only use the Apple Watch when working out. I’m over it tbh.

 

[Mendota]

I always hate having to use the work PC. It runs Windows 10 but is so full of bloatware (she's got MalwareBytes and CCleaner always popping up stuff and 99% ram usage, CPU pegged at 100% all the trime) but she's got literally a hundred icons splattered all over the desktop since she never used the Start Menu (I hate the menu as well but at least I know how to properly pin apps to the taskbar).

My grandmother is even worse. she's got everything magnified 1000X so the whole desktop is five icons two inches square each!

Here's my Linux desktop:

View attachment 1822088

Very nice, I'll have to screenshot mine the next time I log in.

 

[Mendota]

I'm no casual user but I hate updates since they always change things for the sake of doing so. Always turning a beautiful UI into a flat cartoon and moving around vital functions behind hamburger menus or gestures that make no sense. Which is why I always disable all updates. The days of updates actually improving things have long since gone.

A lot of complaints about older phones 'slowing down with time' is due to running newer and newer updated apps that demand more as well. My Thunderbolt would probably choke running one version newer of any app installed on it. Thankfully I'm smart and kept them all the same versions which either launched preinstalled on the phone or ones around in 2011 when it was new, so it never slows down.

I use KDE Linux Neon, and it likes to update every few days. I usually go on and do so, simply because I like some of the new features and security is important as well.

 

[nickdalzell1]

Very nice, I'll have to screenshot mine the next time I log in.

Just be sure to change the preferences. I was taking screenshots but none were showing in the /home/pictures folder at all, or under recent files. Thank goodness there's always a solution a duckduckgo search away for problems in Linux!

 

[Alpa7000]

Yes, not only because of CSAM, but also because the new features launched on WWDC 2021 are shameless plagiarism of Huawei HarmonyOS 2.0. For example, the universal controls that are not yet available are seriously suspected to be the cakes that Apple's development department has seen since HDC 2021. Craig's presentation is estimated to be a pre-rendered video.

 

[Ninjaman]

I can guarantee you there will be hardly…if any people leave apple over this. Everyone here is too far into the eco system and the amount the cry about good and androids security….well it’s not happening

 

[jseymour]

Everyone here is too far into the eco system ... it’s not happening

Nonsense. It's just stuff. Toss it (figuratively or literally) and move on. Ain't no big thing.

 

[LFC2020]

Leave apple for this 👇🤦‍♂️😂

 

[jseymour]

Leave Apple for the blonde chick? <checks with wife...> She just laughed and said "Go for it."

 

[pdoherty]

Then what are you doing spending large sums of money with a company you don't trust? They've explained how the system will be used. If you don't believe them, then you have no reason to believe anything they've ever said about privacy.

Silly argument. Since, if Apple was employing nefarious techniques (that they hadn’t announced), people would have caught them by observing the device behavior or sniffing the traffic, etc. But there’s lots of reason to be concerned about the potential for abuse for something like this. Pretty easy to imagine government or law enforcement widening the net of what gets inspected beyond images.

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

It seems to me that Apple simply doesn't want people putting their kiddie-porn on the Apple servers.

Apple doesn't care what you have on your iPhone/Mac, although others do.
My big problem is that the initial scanning is being done by an AI, and we know how problem-free that can be.
The solution to that is don't put your piccies up on the cloud.
Even better, use a film camera and develop and print your own.
And don't take or import naughty piccies. Choose a different vice. Like posting unwanted opinions on bulletin boards. Or writing letters to the Times. By hand. On paper. With real ink.

 

[pdoherty]

People with critical thinking skills might think this is for the greater good.

They might also think that it’s pushed, like many things, using a “think of the children” issue they think will push past people’s skepticism and allow activities we wouldn’t normally allow. Same as the ‘Patriot Act’ was named to try to suppress criticism and ended up giving us rubberstamped search warrants from FISA judges not even allowed to ask questions about the warrant’s purpose or evidence. And gave us warrantless ”sneak-and-peek” warrants for blanket searches (not in specific locations, for specific items as the 4th amendment requires) where law enforcement enter a person’s property while they’re gone, root around like pigs looking for truffles, bag and gather whatever they like, leave without notice they were even there or what they took, and then charge the person later for any/everything they found (assuming they didn’t plant it, of course).

So, yes, some of us are not so trusting when Apple essentially declares itself a de facto arm of the government (since the CSAM people directly report to government and will charge based on the reporting Apple does). I don‘t see why I should be OK with Apple doing things, on behalf of law enforcement, that law enforcement can’t do without probable cause, evidence and a warrant. Why are you? What does any of this even do, productively, about stopping the actual issue of children being used to make porn?

 

[pdoherty]

Voted. I’ve no issue with CSAM.

So YOU’RE the one they’re after?

 

[pdoherty]

I don’t like iCloud Photos anyway, from the start. I got a NAS drive and set it up to automatically store all my photos from my iPhone, tablet and Mac. I also keep all my music there and can access it from any device. iCloud photos put all my photos on every device in the photo app and if I delete the photos I don’t want on my phone they get deleted everywhere. It is a hot mess, that I just decided early on to not even use it and used my own NAS drive. It is less hassle.

What did you get and how does the photo sync and music access work, like when you’re remote? Companion app for music playback and photo upload?

It's not about being google, Android isn't anywhere near as polished as iOS, as long as google keeps giving out android to anyone who wants it, it'll continue to be a fragmented mess.

Oh yeah, Apple is *so* polished. They’ll create software to scan for this criminal activity, but their swype keyboard to this day still doesn’t understand context of a sentence being typed so that the word ‘and’ can be swyped. That’s not something I ever had issues with on Android.

Personally we as a country have lost the plot when it comes to privacy, the FBI got clearance for spying on the American people after Waco, after 911 spying on people became normal, to where no one batted an eye when it was found out that the NSA was spying on everyone, the government got the ability to hold any civilian for any length of time by simply saying they're a possible terrorist with no proof needed.

To be fair, I think England is spying on their people pretty hard, too.

So because 1 in 1-trillion will suffer from Apple seeing 30 of their "innocent photos", then we shouldn't care about the thousands of CSAM files being shared by sickos?

I respect you for moving away from a platform you don't like, but I don't think anyone is going to "suffer" with odds like that.

Those odds are nonsense. There are people on Reddit who have already interacted with this feature from a programming perspective and have fooled it into falsely alerting to completely innocuous images.

Pretty good compromise in my opinion. If it catches the sickos with this stuff, it's okay with. me. I'll take my 1 in a trillion chances of potentially having 30 innocent images looked at by Apple.

That’s just it - there is nothing about catching the people who view this stuff that stops the people who make it. That’s like saying going after heroin users will stop cartels in Asia that are producing heroin. They‘re not related activities other than they‘re both about heroin (or child porn).

Apple could easily avoid such worries by blindly trusting photos coming from the iPhone's own camera, letting them into iCloud without the CSAM check. Apple allegedly only wants to find copies of the known CSAM pictures from NCMEC, and photos that were just created via the camera cannot be such pictures. Not only would this alleviate many privacy concerns - picture you take yourself will never be checked - it would also reduce the load on the iPhone and minimize false positives. I wonder why Apple does not do that. Almost as if they are interested in more than just the database pictures after all.

Problem is, sickos would outsmart that by simply taking photos of print outs (or the images being viewed on another display) of known CSAM images. Voila - instant end run around the tactic.

The scanning and matching is done locally on the device, but Apple has already stated that for this to work, one must use icloud photos. Apple won't be able to access locally stored photos at this time, at least as per the report that is public. Once a photo is flagged, Apple's human review team will be able to access a copy that is on their icloud server for review.

And that’s as simple as…

If iCloud.enabled == False && GovernmentSaysScanStuffAnyway == True
BeginScanningAnyway

IOW the issue is them having the accepted ability to poke around the user’s device, regardless of how they say they’ll use it or how it will be limited. Do you think that terrorist suspect whose phone the government wanted into, but Apple couldn’t get the government access to, would go down the same way with this new device-side scanning in place? I doubt it. Apple would simply say “government says so and we told you we’d cooperate with local government…” and away they’d scan.

 

[pdoherty]

I don't share your opinion, obviously.


I subscribe to a different philosophy, expressed by "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer." -- English jurist William Blackstone in his seminal work Commentaries of the Laws of England, in the 1670's and "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

We move ever-deeper into a nanny state. I'm glad I was born when I was and probably won't live to see its culmination.

Related:

“It is more important that innocence be protected than it is that guilt be punished, for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world that they cannot all be punished.

But if innocence itself is brought to the bar and condemned, perhaps to die, then the citizen will say, 'whether I do good or whether I do evil is immaterial, for innocence itself is no protection,' and if such an idea as that were to take hold in the mind of the citizen that would be the end of security whatsoever.” — John Adams​

 

[pdoherty]

Bravo, sir, bravo! Starting with a unraid setup later this week…

Yep his post and reference to him being one of us, with decades of IT experience… it might be useful if people in the debate identified their background or area of expertise. Like him I’m also a long time IT person with 25 years of infrastructure experience in many areas (OS, authentication, AD, virtualization, devops/Puppet).

I won’t find it surprising if the people making the most noise about this Apple move are the ones that have the most experience and expertise with computers.

 

[CasualFanboy]

What does any of this even do, productively, about stopping the actual issue of children being used to make porn?

Every pedophile with an IQ above 70 already has the message - "Avoid Apple products for your CSAM material."
Every pedophile with an IQ above 80 already knew that.

Conclusion: This announcement protects pedophiles with an IQ between 71 and 79.

 

[CasualFanboy]

I use KDE Linux Neon, and it likes to update every few days. I usually go on and do so, simply because I like some of the new features and security is important as well.

I've used that for a long time too, and it's been great. Most of the big updates are related to KDE, which of course is the main purpose of this flavor (Neon).

Since my decision to get a System76 computer is solidified now, I've also started playing around with PopOS. You can obviously turn that into KDE, but I figured I'd give their vanilla offering a fair shot. I'll see how it goes - I have to admit it does seem very cohesively designed - but Gnome desktops share a lot of the same design philosophies that I already don't like about OSX* - stripped down features, my-way-or-the-highway applications, etc. That Nautilus file manager is a joke, and Dolphin is the King of All File Managers.

* I'm not contradicting my earlier position. It's still more flexible for my use-cases than Windows.

 

[kamalds]

Not an ecosystem guy. Heck I use Note 20 Ultra as my main phone and don't use Apple storage at all.

 

[nickdalzell1]

I've been immune to ecosystem lock-in since early on I used everything, Apple, Android, BlackBerry, even Windows Phone. I have all the same apps, music, photos, etc on all of those systems. So I can leave one for another and not lose anything. Part of the benefits of keeping everything on device, not on some proprietary 'cloud' that might not be there a year later, or your data deleted due to some arbritray copywrite law.

Very few apps exceed the year 2014 for me.