Will you leave the Apple ecosystem because of CSAM?

[I7guy]

They might also think that it’s pushed, like many things, using a “think of the children” issue they think will push past people’s skepticism and allow activities we wouldn’t normally allow. Same as the ‘Patriot Act’ was named to try to suppress criticism and ended up giving us rubberstamped search warrants from FISA judges not even allowed to ask questions about the warrant’s purpose or evidence. And gave us warrantless ”sneak-and-peek” warrants for blanket searches (not in specific locations, for specific items as the 4th amendment requires) where law enforcement enter a person’s property while they’re gone, root around like pigs looking for truffles, bag and gather whatever they like, leave without notice they were even there or what they took, and then charge the person later for any/everything they found (assuming they didn’t plant it, of course).

So, yes, some of us are not so trusting when Apple essentially declares itself a de facto arm of the government (since the CSAM people directly report to government and will charge based on the reporting Apple does). I don‘t see why I should be OK with Apple doing things, on behalf of law enforcement, that law enforcement can’t do without probably cause, evidence and a warrant. Why are you? What does any of this even do, productively, about stopping the actual issue of children being used to make porn?

I'm open to acknowledging that Apples' platform could be an enabler or CSAM (as are other platforms) and this is one way to mitigate the distribution. (that doesn't mean I'm happy about this or support it). I'm also keen into the slippery slope and whataboutisms that surround this "feature". Maybe some of that will trickle down and get people to think about the consequences of their illegal actions.

This is not a matter of trust or not, it's a matter if your next iphone or computer will be Apple. Even before this, I'm sure there are lots of folks that use iphones that didn't trust Apple. Trust is irrelevant in this context. Is you next purchase going to be an Apple product.

 

[Euronimus Sanchez]

I've been immune to ecosystem lock-in since early on I used everything, Apple, Android, BlackBerry, even Windows Phone. I have all the same apps, music, photos, etc on all of those systems. So I can leave one for another and not lose anything. Part of the benefits of keeping everything on device, not on some proprietary 'cloud' that might not be there a year later, or your data deleted due to some arbritray copywrite law.

Very few apps exceed the year 2014 for me.

Would you say what apps are? Could be very helpfully for me and other people. Thanks in advance.

For music, for example? I have a big music db.
Notes? Calendar?

For mail I read in this thread many times “protonmail” I try it right now. At the moment I use iCloud mail with 3 alias, and an old gmail account for trash.

For sync bookmarks and passwords, firefox sound goods and work in many platforms.

If you have some sugestions… thanks.


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Sorry for my English, in this message I will use a translator, because I don't know how to express myself well all my frustration with this topic (a long post is coming):

To start with, for me, Apple had the added value of simplicity and privacy, you paid for it at the price of the product and quite expensive, but you had the peace of mind that at least you would have that ...

On the one hand I find that in order to use the Apple Watch and unlock the iPhone I have to have the Wifi of the Watch, turned on, it seems a total aberration, if I share the internet with the iPhone it is a nuisance because to connect I need to have the bluetooh turned on and it is usually skipped all the time, I do not have an internet connection where I live only via mobile with unlimited data rate.

Apparently for some time now it is mandatory to have on Mac, iOS, WatchOS, iPadOS always on the bluetooh, wifi and GPS which seems aberrant to me.

Another thing that I did not like at all is that without knowing it my iPhone was being used to locate the iPhones / airtag from all over the world, wasting my battery and without my consent, this option can be disabled but that movement already foreshadowed what was to come.

iCloud is not perfect, it does not synchronize well, Photos on Mac does not synchronize my photos because it considers that it should not do it with a shared data connection, for Apple it is better that I have to download almost 6GB to update an iPhone, than to let me download 100MB with mobile data to be able to update it, it is absurd.

I have been using Mac since PowerPC and now I find that my brand new Macbook M1 is an iPad to use, ... I cannot install the applications I want if it is not doing carambola with terminal commands and moves, I cannot install a simple uBlock extension Origin in Safari because apple capo, you can only download them now from the Apple Store, this is an abuse, it is absurd, also I am limited in Big Sur, now for everything they force you to go through the box, also my LULU firewall cannot block services on my own computer ...

Anyway now I find that I have spyware from iOS 14.3 on the iPhone and possibly on the iPad, unfortunate, now with iOS 15 and the new version of Mac they will limit me even more, I will not allow my paid device to be used with my money to spend and degrade my battery with my energy for something that should be done by Apple servers that are Billionaires for that.

In short, this is not what it was, I have everything for sale, I am going to buy an Android mobile for € 200 and install a custom ROM, I am going to buy a free OS laptop and install Linux, with integrated graphics and € 600 SDD, I am very familiar with it, I have a tower with Gentoo compiled by me, ... that's not a problem, I will sell the Watch and buy a casio watch with tides and step counter, a G-shock.

I will sell:
Macbook Pro M1 16GB / 512GB
Apple Watch series 5
iPhone 11
iPhone 6S Plus

With the money I get, I will have left over to pay for 20 years of subscription to protonmail and other respectful services with the client, Apple is over. I would even hire Google One that at least lets me choose which photos to upload and not install spyware on my computer ... but I'm going to consider setting up my own Nas system.

There are many people who bought apple for privacy a lot, I am an advanced user, I advise my friends and family, they have not only lost one customer, they have lost 100.

To make matters worse in the Canary Islands where I live, Apple does not consider them Spain, we also have to pay the same amount of money with iCloud when we have a different tax, the IGIC not VAT, and to top it all the sellers here give a customer service.

 

[Mendota]

I've used that for a long time too, and it's been great. Most of the big updates are related to KDE, which of course is the main purpose of this flavor (Neon).

Since my decision to get a System76 computer is solidified now, I've also started playing around with PopOS. You can obviously turn that into KDE, but I figured I'd give their vanilla offering a fair shot. I'll see how it goes - I have to admit it does seem very cohesively designed - but Gnome desktops share a lot of the same design philosophies that I already don't like about OSX* - stripped down features, my-way-or-the-highway applications, etc. That Nautilus file manager is a joke, and Dolphin is the King of All File Managers.

* I'm not contradicting my earlier position. It's still more flexible for my use-cases than Windows.

Good luck with your new computer. I thought about purchasing a System76, but settled on a nice generic HP for my Linux machine. Previously I had been dual booting on the MacBook pro. KDE installed with no issues, and I really love KDE Plasma, coupled with Ubuntu Studio it has been my best Linux setup yet. It is number 2 for me behind Windows, with MacOS coming in third on the desktop. My Chromebook is in last place. I got it to try out, but Google's last few updates have done something, not good to the performance, the Android emulation took a hit. This might be my last Chromebook, as the experience hasn't been the best.

 

[Mendota]

Update: Well in the name of fairness, I want to update on the Chromebook. It seems that the performance issue is with Clip Studio Paint and not Google. So ChromeBook and I are back on better terms.

 

[nickdalzell1]

They might also think that it’s pushed, like many things, using a “think of the children” issue they think will push past people’s skepticism and allow activities we wouldn’t normally allow. Same as the ‘Patriot Act’ was named to try to suppress criticism and ended up giving us rubberstamped search warrants from FISA judges not even allowed to ask questions about the warrant’s purpose or evidence. And gave us warrantless ”sneak-and-peek” warrants for blanket searches (not in specific locations, for specific items as the 4th amendment requires) where law enforcement enter a person’s property while they’re gone, root around like pigs looking for truffles, bag and gather whatever they like, leave without notice they were even there or what they took, and then charge the person later for any/everything they found (assuming they didn’t plant it, of course).

So, yes, some of us are not so trusting when Apple essentially declares itself a de facto arm of the government (since the CSAM people directly report to government and will charge based on the reporting Apple does). I don‘t see why I should be OK with Apple doing things, on behalf of law enforcement, that law enforcement can’t do without probably cause, evidence and a warrant. Why are you? What does any of this even do, productively, about stopping the actual issue of children being used to make porn?

Don't forget, the Patriot Act was intended to be 'temporary'. The whole Covid lockdown was 'just two weeks to flatten the curve' and yet both are going on now. Never trust that the goal posts won't be moved tons down the line. Benjamin Franklin knew what he was talking about!

 

[4491275]

SAME, I have realized a bit before the whole csam thing that I was relying much too much on apple and I should branch out. I transferred 65k photos to my own server and lord it took ALONG time. Never again will I keep that many on my phone and deleting them from I could took forever too.



You are one of those type because if you simply went through my post history I’ve made this ONE comment specifically about people whining, which meant if you had any intellectual thought you wouldn’t have replied because it was a one off type comment. if I had made more then heck yes I would be whining and your basic post of omg you’re whining is the same as us whining are you going to stop us no? would at least be somewhat warranted.

But by your own lack of due diligence you looked dumb and you still look dumb. I love debating people when they actually have something worthwhile to debate, you didn’t post anything so my response was perfect. It’s just not the response YOU wanted because you’re in a mindset to argue, not debate. You can “win” this because it’s not even that deep, my comment wasn’t that deep, I should’ve just ignored your reply from the getgo.

What ignorant 🗑

 

[zakarhino]

I'm probably going to end up doing Pixel 6 with CalyxOS, a desktop machine that runs Manjaro (and potentially dual booting Windows 11 if Linux emulation software doesn't cover my needs), and a decent laptop that only has Linux installed (System76? Something from Lenovo? Huawei? I know for sure I want to buy a Framework machine but I'm concerned about the performance so maybe Framework + something else).

I'll keep my iPhone 11 Pro Max and MacBook Pro around so if I need to run macOS I can do so for apps like Photoshop/Final Cut (I haven't upgraded macOS version in years due to the spyware in recent versions of macOS) or mobile apps that don't work on Calyx

I like the Apple ecosystem but am very happy to sacrifice a little convenience and OS pretty factor if it means actually following through with the whole "vote with your wallet" thing which makes very little difference in reality due to the duopoly of Apple and Google. I hope more and more people moving to daily drive degoogled Android + Linux means we get increased investment into polished software for those platforms but I'm highly doubtful. I like that Valve are putting a lot of development work into Windows emulation layers for Linux, they're smart for thinking big and trying to move away from their dependence on Microsoft's Windows. Valve might just end up being the messiah of converting more people to Linux.

GOD BLESS GABEN

 

[nickdalzell1]

Just as long as Linux doesn't get dumbed down or Flat UI'd due to it going mainstream. I always loved how geek-centric it was. Android used to be that way as well back in 2.3, Gingerbread, but at least Samsung kept a lot of that love in their OneUI skin.

 

[Jayson A]

Don't forget, the Patriot Act was intended to be 'temporary'. The whole Covid lockdown was 'just two weeks to flatten the curve' and yet both are going on now. Never trust that the goal posts won't be moved tons down the line. Benjamin Franklin knew what he was talking about!

It's not really the goalposts being moved, but instead new information comes in and things have to be handled accordingly. It's impossible to have all the information from the start especially when it comes to a virus that has to be studied and at the same time trying to get everyone to cooperate and work together to achieve a common goal. However, getting people to be on the same page was pretty much impossible as we saw.

 

[Mendota]

Just as long as Linux doesn't get dumbed down or Flat UI'd due to it going mainstream. I always loved how geek-centric it was. Android used to be that way as well back in 2.3, Gingerbread, but at least Samsung kept a lot of that love in their OneUI skin.

As much as I like Linux, I don't think that there is any possibility of it going "mainstream". Just look at this thread as an example of what most people are willing to put up with for the security of having someone else responsible for their tech needs. They are even willing to give away their own constitutional right to privacy, in their own homes, buy allowing tech devices to monitor them.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Hmmm....

https://9to5mac.com/2021/08/23/apple-scans-icloud-mail-for-csam/

 

[GalileoSeven]

I've never used iCloud to back up my photos - I never spend that much time taking pictures and most of the ones I do take are totally random shots not worth saving, so to me, this is a big non-issue.

 

[Jayson A]

Hmmm....

https://9to5mac.com/2021/08/23/apple-scans-icloud-mail-for-csam/

Ugh! How do I unsend an email? 😉

Edit: Would people have a problem with their emails being scanned on-device if the scan ONLY HAPPENED when they hit "send"?

 

[dk001]

Ugh! How do I unsend an email? 😉

Edit: Would people have a problem with their emails being scanned on-device if the scan ONLY HAPPENED when they hit "send"?

No. I am assuming via use of the Apple Mail app.

I have emails that I use dedicated apps for.
There is a reason my iCloud email get little use.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Ugh! How do I unsend an email? 😉

Edit: Would people have a problem with their emails being scanned on-device if the scan ONLY HAPPENED when they hit "send"?

I have a problem with all of it. But you knew that.

 

[xxray]

I feel conflicted about this. I'm really not comfortable with what Apple's doing, and they don't seem like they're backing down from it. I could probably switch to Linux and be okay. Though, I was excited to upgrade to Apple Silicon eventually and get much more power efficient, cooler, faster laptops.

I was really excited to upgrade to the iPhone 13 Mini, but now I feel like I'm just encouraging Apple if I buy it, and then I'm forced into iOS 15. Am I just supposed to stay on my XS Max on iOS 14 until it dies? Then what? I could switch to GrapheneOS on an Android phone, but every time I switch away to Android/not iOS, I end up really desperate to move back to iOS quickly and end up staying on iOS much longer. I'll really miss iMessage too. My preferred messenger is Signal, but I hate inconveniencing people by asking them to download an app to message me.

Then there's the iPad - probably my favorite device. Mine's already 4 years old, but now I don't really want to upgraded either because of Apple's privacy invasions. I have no interest in buying an Android tablet. So am I just supposed to go back to having no tablet?

Then there's the Apple Watch. I got it mostly for health monitoring reasons, and yes there are alternatives, but I don't know if I want to go down that path. Do I just sell it?

And overall, my devices won't be as connected to each other, I'll lose out on convenience, I'll enjoy using all of my devices less, and I'll have more limited software options.

Apple has done a great job at making their ecosystem hard to leave, just like they wanted it. It's frustrating. If I decide sticking with Apple is the lesser of two evils, do I just say "to hell with it" and plan on upgrading my iPhone is planned? Do I take a hard stance to support my privacy, but then have to sell all my devices, buy new ones that require more maintenance, and switch over to a worse experience?

I don't know. I will say that this whole thing has put a major damper on my excitement and passion for Apple though. Years of trust and passion thrown away with one announcement. I'm almost not even excited for the upcoming Apple events.

I'm kinda leaning towards taking the hard stance for privacy and leaving the ecosystem, but it's a lot to think about.

 

[MrTSolar]

I don't know. I will say that this whole thing has put a major damper on my excitement and passion for Apple though. Years of trust and passion thrown away with one announcement. I'm almost not even excited for the upcoming Apple events.

I'm kinda leaning towards taking the hard stance for privacy and leaving the ecosystem, but it's a lot to think about.

I feel ya. And to think I was actually looking forward to iOS 15 otherwise (a first for me to be excited about a software update).

Now that I’m in the process of migrating out, I’m realizing that all the smartphone fluff is nothing. It’s the simple, everyday crap that makes it difficult. Things like MMS, cell provider options, etc. I just got a letter that AT&T is shutting down 3G early next year. That leaves T-Mobile aa the only provider that will support a classic flip phone unless you’ve managed to hold onto an active Verizon flip phone. I have an active flip phone on T-Mobile, but the coverage is horrible and my provider has nerfed MMS support even though the phone is capable. So, I’ll need much more time than I thought to move off the iPhone. For now, iCloud is gone and no more iOS updates.

 

[sjsharksfan12]

Then there's the Apple Watch. I got it mostly for health monitoring reasons, and yes there are alternatives, but I don't know if I want to go down that path. Do I just sell it?

The Apple Watch is almost blocking me from deciding to go to Android. I got a mac earlier this year and I have an Apple TV but those don't really require the phone to work properly. The Watch does, so if I decide to go back to Android what do I do with the Watch. Also, I got the watch a couple years ago (series 4) and it still works. I feel like i might be wasting money if I give up on it so soon.

It's not even the privacy thing that is making me think about Android. It's more the reliability of Car Play not being as great as it was mainly because I'm afraid to run maps since it might crash and freeze my infotainment system.

 

[RedRage]

The Apple Watch is almost blocking me from deciding to go to Android. I got a mac earlier this year and I have an Apple TV but those don't really require the phone to work properly. The Watch does, so if I decide to go back to Android what do I do with the Watch. Also, I got the watch a couple years ago (series 4) and it still works. I feel like i might be wasting money if I give up on it so soon.

It's not even the privacy thing that is making me think about Android. It's more the reliability of Car Play not being as great as it was mainly because I'm afraid to run maps since it might crash and freeze my infotainment system.

Sell the Apple Watch.

 

[sjsharksfan12]

Sell the Apple Watch.

I guess I might get something for it. It is getting scratched up.

 

[RedRage]

I guess I might get something for it. It is getting scratched up.

Try Decluttr - I got a decent amount when I sold my old AW3 a couple years ago.

 

[jseymour]

The Apple Watch is almost blocking me from deciding to go to Android.

My Apple Watch may delay such a move on my part, but it won't stop me.

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

I feel conflicted about this. I'm really not comfortable with what Apple's doing, and they don't seem like they're backing down from it. I could probably switch to Linux and be okay. Though, I was excited to upgrade to Apple Silicon eventually and get much more power efficient, cooler, faster laptops.

I was really excited to upgrade to the iPhone 13 Mini, but now I feel like I'm just encouraging Apple if I buy it, and then I'm forced into iOS 15. Am I just supposed to stay on my XS Max on iOS 14 until it dies? Then what? I could switch to GrapheneOS on an Android phone, but every time I switch away to Android/not iOS, I end up really desperate to move back to iOS quickly and end up staying on iOS much longer. I'll really miss iMessage too. My preferred messenger is Signal, but I hate inconveniencing people by asking them to download an app to message me.

Then there's the iPad - probably my favorite device. Mine's already 4 years old, but now I don't really want to upgraded either because of Apple's privacy invasions. I have no interest in buying an Android tablet. So am I just supposed to go back to having no tablet?

Then there's the Apple Watch. I got it mostly for health monitoring reasons, and yes there are alternatives, but I don't know if I want to go down that path. Do I just sell it?

And overall, my devices won't be as connected to each other, I'll lose out on convenience, I'll enjoy using all of my devices less, and I'll have more limited software options.

Apple has done a great job at making their ecosystem hard to leave, just like they wanted it. It's frustrating. If I decide sticking with Apple is the lesser of two evils, do I just say "to hell with it" and plan on upgrading my iPhone is planned? Do I take a hard stance to support my privacy, but then have to sell all my devices, buy new ones that require more maintenance, and switch over to a worse experience?

I don't know. I will say that this whole thing has put a major damper on my excitement and passion for Apple though. Years of trust and passion thrown away with one announcement. I'm almost not even excited for the upcoming Apple events.

I'm kinda leaning towards taking the hard stance for privacy and leaving the ecosystem, but it's a lot to think about.

May I ask how you lost your trust? If you trusted Apple up until this point, why stop now?

 

[eltoslightfoot]

May I ask how you lost your trust? If you trusted Apple up until this point, why stop now?

Are you new? Read pages 1 to 30.

 

[xxray]

May I ask how you lost your trust? If you trusted Apple up until this point, why stop now?

I thought I could trust Apple considering they stood up to the FBI before and refused to build a backdoor and have been innovating with privacy features in recent years.

The CSAM detection feature feels like the first time since all of those movements that Apple didn’t work to preserve privacy, and it’s broken my trust. I knew Apple already bent to the will of the Chinese government in China, but still, Apple was innovating with privacy here in the U.S.

Now, Apple has built a way to scan your images for things right into the operating system. Yes, there are multiple checks in place (the hashes having to come from both of the two child protection agencies, human review, iCloud Photos has to be turned on, 30 picture threshold), but I just can’t stomach it. It’s essentially a backdoor, it’s able to be abused, and Apple no longer has the excuse that they can’t do something if forced by a government.

The fact that pretty much all of the major privacy advocates are saying “stop! This is dangerous” only makes me feel worse. I would’ve been more okay with this whole thing if Apple just did scanning of images only on the iCloud server, even if it was more privacy invasive, because at least I already was expecting my privacy to be invaded if my content is on someone else’s server. But when it’s baked into the OS, it just doesn’t sit right with me.

I’ve already been in the process of moving to more privacy-driven software anyways, but maybe this was the reality check and kick in the butt I needed to really kick that process into gear. I feel like I put too much trust into Apple now.