Will you leave the Apple ecosystem because of CSAM?

[MrTSolar]

After learning about these new features (as best I can), more and more I am coming to the conclusion that this is either:

1. This is part of a bigger system Apple is designing and using “CSAM” as the excuse to kick it off
or
2. All a big PR stunt by Apple in an effort to encourage folks to stay in the Apple Garden (away from FB and Android)

I'll bet on #1. If this was a PR stunt, it didn't benefit any of the Big Tech firms. Marketshare of Linux and De-googled Android just went up a bit. My Apple devices will likely go to friends and family that want upgrades and won't leave Apple. I probably won't be buying replacement devices. Right there is an easy $3,000-$4,000 of lost future sales, plus the loss of my iCloud and Apple Music subscriptions.

Apple's scanning system, by design, puts a lot of trust in their two "sovereign" sources. Apple themselves have little verification that the system isn't being abused until a lot of non-CSAM content is flagged for human review. Our only protection at that point would be the human reviewers hired by Apple.

 

[dk001]

I'll bet on #1. If this was a PR stunt, it didn't benefit any of the Big Tech firms. Marketshare of Linux and De-googled Android just went up a bit. My Apple devices will likely go to friends and family that want upgrades and won't leave Apple. I probably won't be buying replacement devices. Right there is an easy $3,000-$4,000 of lost future sales, plus the loss of my iCloud and Apple Music subscriptions.

Apple's scanning system, by design, puts a lot of trust in their two "sovereign" sources. Apple themselves have little verification that the system isn't being abused until a lot of non-CSAM content is flagged for human review. Our only protection at that point would be the human reviewers hired by Apple.

One item I have been unable to identify, in Apple’s design, where are they getting the second database of CSAM?
As far as I have been able to find out, the current global groups all share and align. There are no dissimilar databases out there.

 

[Mendota]

What a lot of Apple fans don’t understand is that the reason many of us are pushing back against Apple is that they are crossing a line that has never been crossed. As far as CSAM is concerned, it is mostly being produced by “commercial” for lack of a better word, producers that actually charge for the material. It is located mostly on servers out of the US. These producers have their own servers and their “customers” make their way there through portals usually found on porn sites and shared links in emails. Perps go there and download the material onto their personal devices. Most are interested in having their own collection, and only some will actually share.

Because the law says that it is illegal to have such material, it has always been the bane of the Missing and Exploited children center that personal devices were off limits. They know that catching only those stupid enough to share for free are only a small part of the problem. This is why they were in such ecstasy over Apple’s spyware. Don’t think for one moment that the scan was only limited to iCloud and could be easily circumvented. If that were really the case The Missing Children's center would not have issued the statement that they did.

Even if the system started out the way Apple claimed, it would be only a matter of time before it was "updated". No, the hope was that Apple would pave the way for device and computer intrusion.

 

[CasualFanboy]

One item I have been unable to identify, in Apple’s design, where are they getting the second database of CSAM?
As far as I have been able to find out, the current global groups all share and align. There are no dissimilar databases out there.

This 2nd database will be the shapeshifting, magic fountain of 'incriminating' evidence to justify any action against anyone they choose.

No details can be disclosed about what's in there, how it got there, or how anyone is certain that it's true. Because that would compromise child safety and national security. Or something.

And who would be against protecting children? Aren't you a Patriot!?

 

[CasualFanboy]

Because the law says that it is illegal to have such material, it has always been the bane of the Missing and Exploited children center that personal devices were off limits. They know that catching only those stupid enough to share for free are only a small part of the problem. This is why they were in such ecstasy over Apple’s spyware. Don’t think for one moment that the scan was only limited to iCloud and could be easily circumvented. If that were really the case The Missing Children's center would not have issued the statement that they did.

This leads to another likely point. Apple probably no longer even has a choice. They will be (or have already been) strong-armed into doing something like this, and it will happen, with Apple's full cooperation or otherwise.

That is not to suggest any goodwill or innocence on the part of Apple - they are no less and no more malevolent than any government agency. It's increasingly difficult to tell the difference between the two.

 

[laptech]

At the end of the day, Apple will do whatever it needs to do to make sure it's products get sold and if that means making decisions that are unpleasent to some of it's customers then so be it. They are in the business of selling, not in the business of making you feel good about yourself.

People will still buy iphones because buyers will convince themselves that having ones device scanned is something that was eventually going to happen so might as well get it over with now rather than later.

 

[Euronimus Sanchez]

apple is poor, they don't have money to scan csam on their servers, they would have to pay amazon and google hundreds of millions to update their server software. Therefore, it is the user who has paid € 1000 for an idevice that has to use its battery, electricity and cpu cycles to do the work of the poor company ... I have no doubt that it is a business just like using mobiles around the world to find airtags, except that this option can be disabled.

With me that they do not count to pay for their scan, it is that simple ... if they want to do something that impacts the world that they do not make disposable products, that you cannot repair or change the battery ...

I already canceled iCloud, I sold the watch, I still need to sell the laptop and the mobile, I changed to a Casio GBX100.

 

[laptech]

I want to see proof of Apple items being sold before i start believing members in here that they've got rid of their Apple items due to csam.

 

[Jayson A]

I want to see proof of Apple items being sold before i start believing members in here that they've got rid of their Apple items due to csam.

I've already sold all of my belongings and I'm going to go live in the woods where I definitely can't be spied on.

 

[laptech]

I've already sold all of my belongings and I'm going to go live in the woods where I definitely can't be spied on.

When you get to live in the woods, send a picture to the forum with you holding a banner saying 'i am Jayson from Macrumours and this is me living in the woods, Apple free'.

 

[I7guy]

I want to see proof of Apple items being sold before i start believing members in here that they've got rid of their Apple items due to csam.

I am sure that some people are really up in arms and have, or are planning to do so, get rid of their Apple gear. And they should, if that is the message they believe they want to send to Apple. However, imo, it would be like throwing a bucket of water in the ocean expecting the tide to rise.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

This leads to another likely point. Apple probably no longer even has a choice. They will be (or have already been) strong-armed into doing something like this, and it will happen, with Apple's full cooperation or otherwise.

That is not to suggest any goodwill or innocence on the part of Apple - they are no less and no more malevolent than any government agency. It's increasingly difficult to tell the difference between the two.

Then Apple should make it explicit and fight in court.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I am sure that some people are really up in arms and have, or are planning to do so, get rid of their Apple gear. And they should, if that is the message they believe they want to send to Apple. However, imo, it would be like throwing a bucket of water in the ocean expecting the tide to rise.

Sometimes that is all you can do. I am not doing it to send a message to Apple (only). I am doing it so I am not spied on from the client-side behind some closed system that can't be audited or changed on my end.

 

[twdawson]

My iPhone has gone as well as my iPad and the only thing i have left is the macbook which has been wiped and is now not signed in to icloud or my apple ID.
All icloud drive data has been deleted and stored at home, photo's are in the process of being deleted and all subscriptions to any apple services are cancelled.

 

[I7guy]

Sometimes that is all you can do. I am not doing it to send a message to Apple (only). I am doing it so I am not spied on from the client-side behind some closed system that can't be audited or changed on my end.

I got what you are saying...I'm not in favor of this either.... However, I personally don't think it makes a difference whether it's client side or server side. At least with the proposed CSAM detection, turning off icloud turns off the scanning. Can't turn off the scanning in gmail and other web based services. And can't guarantee other vendors won't implement something similar. It's like playing CSAM whack-a-mole.

 

[Jayson A]

I am sure that some people are really up in arms and have, or are planning to do so, get rid of their Apple gear. And they should, if that is the message they believe they want to send to Apple. However, imo, it would be like throwing a bucket of water in the ocean expecting the tide to rise.

Why should I vote when I won’t make a difference? If every thought this way, then it would definitely make a difference.

 

[Jemani]

No, they won’t.

Thank you.

 

[Jemani]

I got what you are saying...I'm not in favor of this either.... However, I personally don't think it makes a difference whether it's client side or server side. At least with the proposed CSAM detection, turning off icloud turns off the scanning. Can't turn off the scanning in gmail and other web based services. And can't guarantee other vendors won't implement something similar. It's like playing CSAM whack-a-mole.

It is not about CSAM Whack-a-mole. It is about Apple doing this client side. If there is no difference whether it is client side or server side, then why not just end the debate and do it server side?

 

[I7guy]

It is not about CSAM Whack-a-mole. It is about Apple doing this client side. If there is no difference whether it is client side or server side, then why not just end the debate and do it server side?

It could be because having CSAM in the cloud is stopping Apple from implementing end-to-end encryption? We could conjecture any rational, but we will most likely not find out the answer.

 

[Jemani]

It could be because having CSAM in the cloud is stopping Apple from implementing end-to-end encryption? We could conjecture any rational, but we will most likely not find out the answer.

This is why I am glad I don’t use iCloud photos. I don’t particularly like iTunes cloud sync either. I am convinced Steve Jobs is rolling in his grave…

 

[eltoslightfoot]

It could be because having CSAM in the cloud is stopping Apple from implementing end-to-end encryption? We could conjecture any rational, but we will most likely not find out the answer.

Not one ounce of evidence they are doing this as a precursor to e2e....Even if so, there is a way around the encryption so it wouldn't matter. For encryption to not be on the client side is the worst encryption of all. It would be completely pointless.

 

[an_apple.a.day]

Will you leave the Apple ecosystem because of CSAM?​

no

 

[Jayson A]

Not one ounce of evidence they are doing this as a precursor to e2e....Even if so, there is a way around the encryption so it wouldn't matter. For encryption to not be on the client side is the worst encryption of all. It would be completely pointless.

There's no evidence that they'll use it for nefarious spying either, soooooooo

 

[Jemani]

There's no evidence that they'll use it for nefarious spying either, soooooooo

If they were to use it for nefarious or any other spying, there most likely wouldn’t be any public acknowledgement.

 

[Jayson A]

If they were to use it for nefarious or any other spying, there most likely wouldn’t be any public acknowledgement.

That's why they require 2 separate organizations that are not part of the same jurisdiction to each provide a list of hashes of known CSAM and anything that exists on one list but not the other is thrown away, so you would need to rival governments to somehow work together and get the same image into each database.

Apple will also provide the root hash of the CSAM database in the settings of the device as well as in a knowledge base on their website so you can guarantee that they haven't changed it in any way.