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Hmac

macrumors 68020
May 30, 2007
2,135
4
Midwest USA
Fine, but while you cannot bring yourself to accept that. Clearly apple has, in that they acknowledged the problem. :rolleyes:

Are you saying that Apple has acknowledged that there is a trend toward Apple hardware problems?

Or are you saying that they acknowledged that there was a problem with the 27" iMac, which was indeed widely reported?, From my standpoint, I readily acknowledge and accept that there was a problem with the 27" iMac. However, I don't see that as a trend, which is what you seem to be saying.

So, what other problems has Apple acknowledged that supports your statement that a) there is a trend toward hardware problems at Apple and b) that Apple has acknowledged that there is such a trend?
 

Hmac

macrumors 68020
May 30, 2007
2,135
4
Midwest USA
Grow up. Do you think an alliteration is clever? Do you think that repeating it makes it any funnier? How would you like it if someone started calling your precious Steve names? Would "Jaundiced Jobs" make you cry?

This post runs pretty far afield of the point of this thread. Does your personal attack on *LTD* mean that you're out of substantitive argument on the subject?
 

Dooger

macrumors 6502
May 4, 2009
402
0
This post runs pretty far afield of the point of this thread. Does your personal attack on *LTD* mean that you're out of substantitive argument on the subject?

Pff. It's akin to being ravaged by a dead sheep. I asked for the evidence to back up his claim and received none. Perhaps that's why you removed the beginning of my quote? Care to inform me, oh learned one, how that means I'm out of substantitive [sic] argument?

Are you saying that Apple has acknowledged that there is a trend toward Apple hardware problems?

So, what other problems has Apple acknowledged that supports your statement that a) there is a trend toward hardware problems at Apple and b) that Apple has acknowledged that there is such a trend?

And with beautiful timing...
https://www.macrumors.com/2010/04/1...gram-for-ipod-shuffle-headphones-with-remote/

Please respond soon, I await with breath bated.
 

Hmac

macrumors 68020
May 30, 2007
2,135
4
Midwest USA
Pff. It's akin to being ravaged by a dead sheep. I asked for the evidence to back up his claim and received none. Perhaps that's why you removed the beginning of my quote? Care to inform me, oh learned one, how that means I'm out of substantitive [sic] argument?

It's pretty obvious that you can't disprove his assertions. Your only remaining avenue is an ad hominem attack. It appears you can't win the argument on facts alone. You've decided to get personal. It seems to represent a theme in your ability to communicate.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
Wirelessly posted (iPhone 3GS: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7E18 Safari/528.16)

And don't forget the mbp gpu issue that they acknowledged to be a problem.

I'm starting to see a trend ;)
 

Hmac

macrumors 68020
May 30, 2007
2,135
4
Midwest USA
Wirelessly posted (iPhone 3GS: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7E18 Safari/528.16)

And don't forget the mbp gpu issue that they acknowledged to be a problem.

I'm starting to see a trend ;)


OK. Now we're getting somewhere (bad headphones....:rolleyes:). What else? Wasn't there a yellow-tint issue on MBP's a few years ago? How about loss of vibrate switches on iPhones? Clicking hinges. Swelling batteries. Bad Mag Safe adapters.

But I'd still like to see the statistics as reflected in customer satisfaction ratings at least. I mean, they remain pretty high. If we're talking significant trend here, shouldn't they be lower than they are?
 

*LTD*

macrumors G4
Feb 5, 2009
10,703
1
Canada
And with beautiful timing...
https://www.macrumors.com/2010/04/1...gram-for-ipod-shuffle-headphones-with-remote/

Please respond soon, I await with breath bated.

LOL, they're headphones.

Google "iBook" and "problems", and you'll find enough to keep you busy for weeks. The iBook had quite a rough run at one point.

Issues with Apple products now and then are nothing out of the ordinary. Those issues were always there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBook

Quality issues

In late November 2003, a number of iBook G4 users reported display problems with their laptops. In December 2003, a group of users headed by Michael Johnson and Bill Owen sought to file a class action suit against Apple. In response, Apple initiated the "iBook Logic Board Repair Extension Program" in January 2004, which covered the expense of repairing affected iBooks for three years.[2][3]
The iBook G4 seemed to suffer from similar display problems as the iBook G3, but was not covered by the repair extension program. Owners of iBooks that required expensive repairs for these problems submitted new class action lawsuits in December 2006.[4]



That was around seven or eight years ago. Yet Apple today, as it has for several years consecutively, earned top spots in reliability and customer satisfaction. It's almost become a yearly ritual.
 

Dooger

macrumors 6502
May 4, 2009
402
0
It's pretty obvious that you can't disprove his assertions. Your only remaining avenue is an ad hominem attack. It appears you can't win the argument on facts alone. You've decided to get personal. It seems to represent a theme in your ability to communicate.

It seems that in your haste you've neglected to comprehend a simply point here: *LTD* made a sweeping generalisation about whether or not the members of a web community reflected the market as a whole. It's not up to me to disprove it. Indeed, I'm pretty certain he has not one shred of evidence other than a gut feeling. If he wants to prove me otherwise, I'm all ears.

As for your good self...

So, what other problems has Apple acknowledged that supports your statement that a) there is a trend toward hardware problems at Apple and b) that Apple has acknowledged that there is such a trend?

OK. Now we're getting somewhere (bad headphones....:rolleyes:). What else? Wasn't there a yellow-tint issue on MBP's a few years ago? How about loss of vibrate switches on iPhones? Clicking hinges. Swelling batteries. Bad Mag Safe adapters.

Thanks.
 

Hmac

macrumors 68020
May 30, 2007
2,135
4
Midwest USA
It seems that in your haste you've neglected to comprehend a simply point here: *LTD* made a sweeping generalisation about whether or not the members of a web community reflected the market as a whole. It's not up to me to disprove it. Indeed, I'm pretty certain he has not one shred of evidence other than a gut feeling. If he wants to prove me otherwise, I'm all ears.

I'm simply asking the questions. I'm a Windows user. You're the one who's so busy with personal attacks that you kind of "forgot" to actually make a point.


+1
I've noticed this rabid little apple attack dog on numerous other threads. I'm a big apple fan and have converted many family and friends but his lickspittle attitude is really off-putting. Any criticism of apple is quickly met with sarcasm and opprobrium, but rarely with any reasoned debate.

I hope you're a child, as this slavish behaviour in an adult would be deeply embarrassing.

Grow up. Do you think an alliteration is clever? Do you think that repeating it makes it any funnier? How would you like it if someone started calling your precious Steve names? Would "Jaundiced Jobs" make you cry?

Pff. It's akin to being ravaged by a dead sheep. I asked for the evidence to back up his claim and received none. Perhaps that's why you removed the beginning of my quote? Care to inform me, oh learned one, how that means I'm out of substantitive [sic] argument?

About the sum of your contribution to this thread. Nice.
 

Dooger

macrumors 6502
May 4, 2009
402
0
I'm simply asking the questions. I'm a Windows user.

I pretended no such thing. There are some things I like about Windows 7. The reason I use OSX instead is that there are more things I dislike about it.

It's hard to take you seriously when you can't even be straight about the OS you use. And it's pretty easy to fact-check when you flip-flop in the same thread. Speaking of fact-checking, it doesn't take long for anyone to check a five page thread to see where you've editorialised my posts so I'll leave it up to the good people of MR.



As far as *LTD* is concerned, have a cast around the threads, many are embarrassed by the unflinching adulation he gives apple. For pure, unsubstantiated BS look no further than this completely unfounded bit of fluff
Except that the iPad is being developed into a "serious computer." If it's in any way impressive now, just wait and see what it'll become. The time will come when you'll forget all about what those old Macs were like.

MS is way, way behind the curve. Apple is about to run away with the very market everyone is supposed to build on.
 

*LTD*

macrumors G4
Feb 5, 2009
10,703
1
Canada
futureipad.jpg


We're getting there.

Normal people (the Joe Averages) aren't crazy about the computers of today. To alot of these average users, especially if they're running Windows, these machines still sport weird conventions and require babysitting. Operating systems and computers - the entire paradigm of "computing", hasn't changed that much for the past 20 years or so. Still complex, still requires work, and when something breaks there's still tears and frustration. OS X alleviates a lot of these problems, but the conventions are still largely unchanged.

Until the iPad arrived. The iPad *will* kill computers as we know them today. Just like modern computers killed the previous dominant technology of its time, be it punchcards or DOS.

Obviously, the iPad at first won't replace computers wholesale. You still need to make things for the iPad, and for that you'll still need a "computer." The entire planet is not going to run on just tablets or slates. Not for quite a while, at least. The iPad still lacks a lot of the power needed for hefty operations. But it is being developed in that direction. Bit by bit.

The point is, and the real benefit at this early stage is, that this is the first "computer" that requires no training or maintenance or babysitting whatsoever. It's the first "computer" that is truly accessible and useful (even for the totally blind, as we've read) for everyone. That's a very big deal. And moving forward, if Apple can build on this model and develop the iPad into a more powerful, more capable device as time goes by (which you can bet they are), rest assured that you'll be seeing a lot more of them, doing a lot more "serious" things, whatever that may be. The possibilities are endless, not just in terms of the platform, but in terms of how the platform empowers the average user.

Just like the iPhone changed our conception of what a phone should be - right under our noses - Apple's new "computer" will completely and permanently change our conception of what a "computer" is and our relationship to it. It's all about how computers should be.
 

Hmac

macrumors 68020
May 30, 2007
2,135
4
Midwest USA
It's hard to take you seriously when you can't even be straight about the OS you use. And it's pretty easy to fact-check when you flip-flop in the same thread.

Read more carefully. I use both Windows and OSX and said so - you even quoted it, so...I worry about you. Windows XP at work, Windows 7 laptop at home (Dell Inspiron - a piece of crap really -- on it's third hard drive), Windows 7 via Bootcamp at home on my Mac Pro, Windows XP on my MacBook Pro via Parallels.

Hard to take you seriously when, well, you don't say anything significant, only viciously spear those who have a different point of view than you. I'm not exactly sure what your problem is, but you're a pretty unpleasant guy and I think I'll just let you play by yourself here.
 

FX120

macrumors 65816
May 18, 2007
1,173
235
Everyone knows to stay away from rev. A Apple hardware unless you're a die hard evangelist and have to be the first with a new product. I can't remember the last product that they introduced which wasn't met with some form of problem out of the gate.
 

SactoGuy18

macrumors 601
Sep 11, 2006
4,733
1,798
Sacramento, CA USA
I have Windows 7 Home Premium running on one of the desktops at home and frankly, it runs with a lot more stability and speed than my machine that runs Windows Vista Home Premium (SP2).

In my humble opinion, this is the best version of Windows for the desktop since Windows 2000 Professional.
 

Dooger

macrumors 6502
May 4, 2009
402
0
We're getting there.

Normal people (the Joe Averages) aren't crazy about the computers of today. To alot of these average users, especially if they're running Windows, these machines still sport weird conventions and require babysitting. Operating systems and computers - the entire paradigm of "computing", hasn't changed that much for the past 20 years or so. Still complex, still requires work, and when something breaks there's still tears and frustration. OS X alleviates a lot of these problems, but the conventions are still largely unchanged.

Until the iPad arrived. The iPad *will* kill computers as we know them today. Just like modern computers killed the previous dominant technology of its time, be it punchcards or DOS.

Obviously, the iPad at first won't replace computers wholesale. You still need to make things for the iPad, and for that you'll still need a "computer." The entire planet is not going to run on just tablets or slates. Not for quite a while, at least. The iPad still lacks a lot of the power needed for hefty operations. But it is being developed in that direction. Bit by bit.

The point is, and the real benefit at this early stage is, that this is the first "computer" that requires no training or maintenance or babysitting whatsoever. It's the first "computer" that is truly accessible and useful (even for the totally blind, as we've read) for everyone. That's a very big deal. And moving forward, if Apple can build on this model and develop the iPad into a more powerful, more capable device as time goes by (which you can bet they are), rest assured that you'll be seeing a lot more of them, doing a lot more "serious" things, whatever that may be. The possibilities are endless, not just in terms of the platform, but in terms of how the platform empowers the average user.

Just like the iPhone changed our conception of what a phone should be - right under our noses - Apple's new "computer" will completely and permanently change our conception of what a "computer" is and our relationship to it. It's all about how computers should be.

Dude, I got to admire your belief. You might be contradicting yourself a little though. If "Joe Average" doesn't want to babysit a powerful computer then where is apple's incentive to provide one? I think the iPad is, and will remain, a stepping stone between a smartphone and a laptop. The fundamental problem is that data entry is fiddly and therefore most people will still need a physical keyboard for anything more than browsing and typing brief emails. Sure, there are keyboard attachments, but it then becomes a netbook, with a tiny screen. It'll be interesting to see where we stand in 3 years or so.

Hard to take you seriously when, well, you don't say anything significant, only viciously spear those who have a different point of view than you. I'm not exactly sure what your problem is, but you're a pretty unpleasant guy and I think I'll just let you play by yourself here.

Oh what cruel fate betides me. Unfortunately I feel that you're too nosy and fond of pontification to keep this promise. But fingers crossed eh?
 

belvdr

macrumors 603
Aug 15, 2005
5,945
1,372
Until the iPad arrived. The iPad *will* kill computers as we know them today. Just like modern computers killed the previous dominant technology of its time, be it punchcards or DOS.

There have been touchscreens for a long time now and it has yet to kill any other computer system. Also, if the iPad is to succeed other computer systems, why does it still have a traditional keyboard as an accessory? And where are the other ports for additionally functionality?

Obviously, the iPad at first won't replace computers wholesale. You still need to make things for the iPad, and for that you'll still need a "computer." The entire planet is not going to run on just tablets or slates. Not for quite a while, at least. The iPad still lacks a lot of the power needed for hefty operations. But it is being developed in that direction. Bit by bit.

I don't think the entire computing environment is moving to a very slimmed down OS. Maybe for people with limited computing needs, but in general, I don't see it.

The point is, and the real benefit at this early stage is, that this is the first "computer" that requires no training or maintenance or babysitting whatsoever. It's the first "computer" that is truly accessible and useful (even for the totally blind, as we've read) for everyone. That's a very big deal. And moving forward, if Apple can build on this model and develop the iPad into a more powerful, more capable device as time goes by (which you can bet they are), rest assured that you'll be seeing a lot more of them, doing a lot more "serious" things, whatever that may be. The possibilities are endless, not just in terms of the platform, but in terms of how the platform empowers the average user.

The average user can't make video calls that are so common on laptops. How is this good?

The iPad still isn't a full computer in that it still requires a computer to backup its configuration for example. If the iPad is going to gear up for something more serious, then why couldn't Apple come up with a better adjective than "magical"? It seems they ran into a wall there. On that note, whenever I see the slogan, I have to laugh. A computer is now magical? That's just great.

Just like the iPhone changed our conception of what a phone should be - right under our noses

Which is why a lot of people are eager to jailbreak them.
 

*LTD*

macrumors G4
Feb 5, 2009
10,703
1
Canada
Dude, I got to admire your belief. You might be contradicting yourself a little though. If "Joe Average" doesn't want to babysit a powerful computer then where is apple's incentive to provide one? I think the iPad is, and will remain, a stepping stone between a smartphone and a laptop. The fundamental problem is that data entry is fiddly and therefore most people will still need a physical keyboard for anything more than browsing and typing brief emails. Sure, there are keyboard attachments, but it then becomes a netbook, with a tiny screen. It'll be interesting to see where we stand in 3 years or so.

The interesting thing is that Apple is taking the product very, very seriously. This isn't just another addition to the iPod lineup (ha, ha, yes I know.) Apple is treating this thing like the Second Coming. What will be interesting is seeing just how far Apple can go by throwing most if their resources at it. Developers are already acting like nymphomaniacs in a porn shop because they see some big dollar signs connected with the device. So at the moment the elation is extremely high. Which is important. I'm dying to see what this all looks like two years from now.

Yes, I'll admit, the whole keyboard attachment is an odd situation, but if users truly LOVE this device, they'll want to spend time with it to really exploit their experience with it and sustain that enjoyment. They'll probably spring for the hardware keyboard without giving it a second thought.
 

thatrandomguy

macrumors regular
Nov 14, 2009
135
0
Why Vista failed - and 7 didn't.

Note that I doubt I'm going to convert anyone here from Mac OS. Just the perspective of a PC user.

DIATRIBE STARTS HERE. (If anyone reads this whole thing, let me know. I kind of doubt it.)

Describing the whole set of circumstances that lead to Vista becoming the press laughingstock is a bit long.

Vista was the pain that we had to endure partially because MS screwed up its development and release on numerous occasions (the finished product was surprisingly good despite this) and because of Microsoft finally enforcing good application practices

Basically, MS let a grossly unrealistic development cycle start and didn't enforce any sort of roadmaps, so they had major issues in that regard. They restarted development in 2004...which was a sign that things were going to be rushed to begin with.

Despite all of this, I bought Vista at launch and I was fine- better than XP, actually. Of course, I had chosen to run the x64 edition, which leads to Microsoft being smart and exerting Apple-like quality control: requiring drivers to be WHQL signed and tested as Microsoft as working instead of "well, wrote the hardware. 8 monkeys slam on the keyboards, compile, ship the hardware out!"... Vista x64 also disallowed a lot of bad practices such as sloppy kernel access- McAfee through a rather large fit over it).

So MS makes the OS, and for the dev time...it's actually really good. Microsoft enables UAC, which has had a couple execution holes, but is a good approach for those with common sense: it's, in simple terms, like elevation on the Mac.

Unfortunately, since every dev was used to having full admin access (very few XP users run limited user accounts for themselves), they had ridiculously sloppy coding practices that set off UAC nonstop. This resolved itself mostly in ~6 months or so, but people don't judge an OS after 6 months- they judge it within the first. (Between devs adopting good practices to avoid setting off UAC unnecessarily and Microsoft ridiculously lowering its default settings to where many system changes are allowed without prompting, the issue is largely solved for users).

So MS has that problem. Then they have the system builders.

Microsoft has Aero, and a ton of flashy new features. Considering how late they are, they really have to sell their customers on the new version of Windows. So they wow us with fancy visuals that require more hardware...and the system builders, wanting to make more money with less work, bitch about the "Vista Ready requirements"...this was especially a big deal with the holiday sales. OEMs had to have a decent amount of hardware for 2005 - not what came in a $600 computer.

So HP goes ahead and upgrades their lineup to handle Aero. Dell and numerous others basically got Microsoft to go, "OK, we'll put "Vista Premium ready" on the good machines, and we'll put "Vista Ready" on the machines that'll technically run it, but not well. People will read the last page of brochures to see why they need premium." (This is the point when you realize that some Microsoft employees do not think like regular people). Microsoft also bowed to Intel and said that certain integrated chipsets would run Aero (mine did. I still have not forgiven Intel for that, although Microsoft is not blameless.) This caused a lot of friction between HP and Microsoft and actually started a lawsuit- where the emails where there from executives saying that they were making a confusing program because the equipment makers were whining. Iceberg dead ahead, anyone ;)

Between this and the driver signing fiasco (the model radically changed, especially for video drivers- NVIDIA especially was atrocious), you not only had machines that were going to just be able to run the OS being pumped out and hyped, you now have a bunch of crappy drivers. Since they were shipping all the machines with under 4GB of RAM, they just put x86 on to avoid driver certification...resulting in godawful drivers.

To put the cherry on top, Microsoft totally FUBARs the upgrade program, allowing the OEMs sending upgrade disks to take forever and charge ridiculously unreasonable (up to $50) handling fees. MS really should have handled this themselves through a partner.

The end result?

The OS is released with a lot of advertising. With no one looking at the size 5 print saying "Vista Ready" (and not understanding what premium ready is, and many not knowing at all), they pick a good appearing, inexpensive computer and open it up.

They boot up the machine, and between that and the crapware that many OEMs have loaded to the gills (My friend had me setup an Inspiron recently and I'm happy to say that Dell, at a minimum, cut back on this), the machine runs sluggishly. There are constant UAC prompts, and because all of the hardware manufacturers halfassed the drivers, it's buggy as hell.

In other words: It's the devil incarnate (although on MacRumors, I suppose some of you might consider all PCs to be such! :D ). The machine is just frustrating to use. The machine ran better when it had XP on it (this was why the upgrade problem was a failure).

To the consumer, it doesn't matter if you tell them that it was a 3rd party driver named amdcalrt.dll that caused the Blue Screen of Death. All that matters is that the computer doesn't operate in a fashion that can be described as expected or pleasing.

So the journalists who didn't get $2k machines from Microsoft (obviously, they were singing praises) throw some punches at the OS while trying to reserve some praise. They realize the criticism is what the users want to hear. Suddenly, Vista becomes the easiest target of all time. People told me about "how terrible Vista was", and I'd ask them if they tried it. "You run it???" ... and most would be surprised when they tried it on my PC.)

So at this point, Microsoft is in a pickle. They can't fix the "Premium Ready" fiasco, the drivers are going to get better over time (because the HW makers get the driver model more and you crashing more than the other guy = the system builders not buying your stuff). They can't take back Vista. Apple is gaining marketshare at the expense of Microsoft because Vista has such a bad reputation.

So Microsoft made the "Mojave Experiment" ads. And they failed. You can't get people to be in a commercial to look surprised - whether they're acting or real people- and have people expect to give out all preconceptions of a heavily tarnished name.

So then Microsoft thinks, "People love celebrities! Look what Seinfield did for American Express!"

So they basically cloned the American Express commercial format: Show Sienfield in an everyday situation, and you get the brand recognition of the celebrity while getting the "hey, I could relate to that" factor of the everyday situation.

The problem is that the everyday situation works when you can integrate your product- a credit card - into it. And if Bill Gates and Seinfield were in an American Express commercial, they could probably have a successful one. Gates is charismatic, he's always wearing sweaters- he seems like an Uncle.

The problem is that they were selling Windows, not credit cards. I was speechless after watching the "shoe shopping" commercial for the first time. 59 seconds... Bill buys shoes with Seinfeld. Some humor.
1 second of the Windows logo.
Fin.

So MS realizes that Vista is tanking as work on 7 is being done. They plan a two year release cycle and improving Vista instead of doing radical rewrites and lofty goals.

Meanwhile, marketing gets their heads out of their asses. They don't bow down to OEM pressure and only allow one sticker - either the laptop runs the fancier features, or it does not. More systems are coming with over 4GB of memory anyways, even the budget, and even the system builders realize that driver signing benefits them (less support calls, happier customers), and many preload x64 Windows 7 instead. They simplify the lineup- they keep most of the editions, delegating Starter to netbooks, Home Premium to most PCs, Pro on the upper end, and limited selling of Ultimate. Rather than making Pro lack many Home Premium features, they're smart enough to make all Win7 editions come with all the features of the lower priced edition.

They come out with some amazingly effective commercials. And by "effective", I don't mean fair.

  • First up: PC hunters. Oh boy. That angered Mac users to no end. I still hear people upset about it! :p Despite this, Microsoft turned Apple's premium, high end image against them in a series of commercials where people could easily relate to the situation- going to the store and not overspending on a computer.
  • Then we have the little girl who does photo editing, emailing, etc. on her own in a few seconds. These were short, cute, and effective. They were able to keep them effective after 7 came out by having them put positive blurbs from major magazines into he photo edits.
  • The "I'm a PC and Windows 7 was my idea" commercials are REALLY dumb, in some aspects. You get an everyday looking guy or gal, and with the music, the exact inspiration of the idea is made into a bit of a "the fish was THIIIIIS big" sort of scenario. In the end, the cool thing- Microsoft held people's attention enough to show them a cool new feature- was there. Essentially, Microsoft said "Sorry for Vista. We listened to you for 7, so it's awesome! You can't be wrong."
  • The 15 second commercials that show people doing a task - say, enabling parental controls on the computer - were quite brilliant. There's a timer, the user wants to do something that most people think is a pain in the ass, and they not only find it, but are done in under a minute.

Meanwhile, Apple coasts on the Vista bashing commercials in general, and rides on it. Apple really failed in this regard, especially after Windows 7 came out, trying to be the only group of people saying "Windows 7 has the same problems! It's not really better!". It was a pretty surprising failure to me, and it kind of weakened the arguments of Apple to many people, who went from "I'm upgrading to something better" to "Well, they told me 7 was bad, and it's not. They just want to sell me a Mac."

As MS pushes up their plans, things have largely improved in the background anyways. Devs have gotten rid of their sloppy coding practices for the most part, so UAC prompts are rare- even if you turned them up from their lessened defaults. ATI & NVIDIA got used to the new driver model, and wrote stable drivers. MS fixed a lot of little bugs in the background.

But in the end, MS needs to make Windows 7 a separate product from Vista. You can't change a lot of the visual elements dramatically, or it'll be alien- especially to the XP holdouts. At the same time, Vista's image was shot- you can't have the first impression people have be "It looks just like Vista".



Enter the new "superbar".

Thank god for the superbar. Grouping of apps in prior versions of Windows SUCKED. With Aero Peek on the window contents, it's really easy to tell what's what at a glance. Everything's more consolidated as a whole. And it looks a lot different than the bars of the past. (They made a couple smaller tweaks, such as making the "shutdown button" default to shutdown instead of standby, showing the date with the time, and putting a "Show Desktop" button on the right side of the time. The little things add up, in the end. Especially the little features, and back assward menus (I think it took 6 clicks of network dialogs to see your full connection status in Vista when it took 3 in XP)

(I'd like to note at this time that, regardless of how much you feel that Redmond started their photocopiers, imitation IS the sincerest form of flattery - in the words of a certain Steven Jobs you may have heard of, "Great artists steal"). Nevertheless, I believe there are substantial differences between Windows and the Dock of OS X).


So Microsoft encourages everyone to download the Beta and RC. It runs great, since it didn't add a ton on and hardware got cheaper (among all the previous stuff). It's totally different. It's what Vista should have been. After waiting so long on XP- or hating Vista- everyone wanted to move on.

So they did. 7 was "great".

Don't get me wrong- I LOVE Windows 7. But my two computers running Vista are doing fine -the feature differences aren't worth the time to reinstall everything. They're stable, they run well, and I'm happy.

Anyhow, two cents from a pcfag with too much time to write a reply that no one will read. How many words is this rambling, anyway?
 

*LTD*

macrumors G4
Feb 5, 2009
10,703
1
Canada
Note that I doubt I'm going to convert anyone here from Mac OS. Just the perspective of a PC user.

DIATRIBE STARTS HERE. (If anyone reads this whole thing, let me know. I kind of doubt it.)

Describing the whole set of circumstances that lead to Vista becoming the press laughingstock is a bit long.

Vista was the pain that we had to endure partially because MS screwed up its development and release on numerous occasions (the finished product was surprisingly good despite this) and because of Microsoft finally enforcing good application practices

Basically, MS let a grossly unrealistic development cycle start and didn't enforce any sort of roadmaps, so they had major issues in that regard. They restarted development in 2004...which was a sign that things were going to be rushed to begin with.

Despite all of this, I bought Vista at launch and I was fine- better than XP, actually. Of course, I had chosen to run the x64 edition, which leads to Microsoft being smart and exerting Apple-like quality control: requiring drivers to be WHQL signed and tested as Microsoft as working instead of "well, wrote the hardware. 8 monkeys slam on the keyboards, compile, ship the hardware out!"... Vista x64 also disallowed a lot of bad practices such as sloppy kernel access- McAfee through a rather large fit over it).

So MS makes the OS, and for the dev time...it's actually really good. Microsoft enables UAC, which has had a couple execution holes, but is a good approach for those with common sense: it's, in simple terms, like elevation on the Mac.

Unfortunately, since every dev was used to having full admin access (very few XP users run limited user accounts for themselves), they had ridiculously sloppy coding practices that set off UAC nonstop. This resolved itself mostly in ~6 months or so, but people don't judge an OS after 6 months- they judge it within the first. (Between devs adopting good practices to avoid setting off UAC unnecessarily and Microsoft ridiculously lowering its default settings to where many system changes are allowed without prompting, the issue is largely solved for users).

So MS has that problem. Then they have the system builders.

Microsoft has Aero, and a ton of flashy new features. Considering how late they are, they really have to sell their customers on the new version of Windows. So they wow us with fancy visuals that require more hardware...and the system builders, wanting to make more money with less work, bitch about the "Vista Ready requirements"...this was especially a big deal with the holiday sales. OEMs had to have a decent amount of hardware for 2005 - not what came in a $600 computer.

So HP goes ahead and upgrades their lineup to handle Aero. Dell and numerous others basically got Microsoft to go, "OK, we'll put "Vista Premium ready" on the good machines, and we'll put "Vista Ready" on the machines that'll technically run it, but not well. People will read the last page of brochures to see why they need premium." (This is the point when you realize that some Microsoft employees do not think like regular people). Microsoft also bowed to Intel and said that certain integrated chipsets would run Aero (mine did. I still have not forgiven Intel for that, although Microsoft is not blameless.) This caused a lot of friction between HP and Microsoft and actually started a lawsuit- where the emails where there from executives saying that they were making a confusing program because the equipment makers were whining. Iceberg dead ahead, anyone ;)

Between this and the driver signing fiasco (the model radically changed, especially for video drivers- NVIDIA especially was atrocious), you not only had machines that were going to just be able to run the OS being pumped out and hyped, you now have a bunch of crappy drivers. Since they were shipping all the machines with under 4GB of RAM, they just put x86 on to avoid driver certification...resulting in godawful drivers.

To put the cherry on top, Microsoft totally FUBARs the upgrade program, allowing the OEMs sending upgrade disks to take forever and charge ridiculously unreasonable (up to $50) handling fees. MS really should have handled this themselves through a partner.

The end result?

The OS is released with a lot of advertising. With no one looking at the size 5 print saying "Vista Ready" (and not understanding what premium ready is, and many not knowing at all), they pick a good appearing, inexpensive computer and open it up.

They boot up the machine, and between that and the crapware that many OEMs have loaded to the gills (My friend had me setup an Inspiron recently and I'm happy to say that Dell, at a minimum, cut back on this), the machine runs sluggishly. There are constant UAC prompts, and because all of the hardware manufacturers halfassed the drivers, it's buggy as hell.

In other words: It's the devil incarnate (although on MacRumors, I suppose some of you might consider all PCs to be such! :D ). The machine is just frustrating to use. The machine ran better when it had XP on it (this was why the upgrade problem was a failure).

To the consumer, it doesn't matter if you tell them that it was a 3rd party driver named amdcalrt.dll that caused the Blue Screen of Death. All that matters is that the computer doesn't operate in a fashion that can be described as expected or pleasing.

So the journalists who didn't get $2k machines from Microsoft (obviously, they were singing praises) throw some punches at the OS while trying to reserve some praise. They realize the criticism is what the users want to hear. Suddenly, Vista becomes the easiest target of all time. People told me about "how terrible Vista was", and I'd ask them if they tried it. "You run it???" ... and most would be surprised when they tried it on my PC.)

So at this point, Microsoft is in a pickle. They can't fix the "Premium Ready" fiasco, the drivers are going to get better over time (because the HW makers get the driver model more and you crashing more than the other guy = the system builders not buying your stuff). They can't take back Vista. Apple is gaining marketshare at the expense of Microsoft because Vista has such a bad reputation.

So Microsoft made the "Mojave Experiment" ads. And they failed. You can't get people to be in a commercial to look surprised - whether they're acting or real people- and have people expect to give out all preconceptions of a heavily tarnished name.

So then Microsoft thinks, "People love celebrities! Look what Seinfield did for American Express!"

So they basically cloned the American Express commercial format: Show Sienfield in an everyday situation, and you get the brand recognition of the celebrity while getting the "hey, I could relate to that" factor of the everyday situation.

The problem is that the everyday situation works when you can integrate your product- a credit card - into it. And if Bill Gates and Seinfield were in an American Express commercial, they could probably have a successful one. Gates is charismatic, he's always wearing sweaters- he seems like an Uncle.

The problem is that they were selling Windows, not credit cards. I was speechless after watching the "shoe shopping" commercial for the first time. 59 seconds... Bill buys shoes with Seinfeld. Some humor.
1 second of the Windows logo.
Fin.

So MS realizes that Vista is tanking as work on 7 is being done. They plan a two year release cycle and improving Vista instead of doing radical rewrites and lofty goals.

Meanwhile, marketing gets their heads out of their asses. They don't bow down to OEM pressure and only allow one sticker - either the laptop runs the fancier features, or it does not. More systems are coming with over 4GB of memory anyways, even the budget, and even the system builders realize that driver signing benefits them (less support calls, happier customers), and many preload x64 Windows 7 instead. They simplify the lineup- they keep most of the editions, delegating Starter to netbooks, Home Premium to most PCs, Pro on the upper end, and limited selling of Ultimate. Rather than making Pro lack many Home Premium features, they're smart enough to make all Win7 editions come with all the features of the lower priced edition.

They come out with some amazingly effective commercials. And by "effective", I don't mean fair.

  • First up: PC hunters. Oh boy. That angered Mac users to no end. I still hear people upset about it! :p Despite this, Microsoft turned Apple's premium, high end image against them in a series of commercials where people could easily relate to the situation- going to the store and not overspending on a computer.
  • Then we have the little girl who does photo editing, emailing, etc. on her own in a few seconds. These were short, cute, and effective. They were able to keep them effective after 7 came out by having them put positive blurbs from major magazines into he photo edits.
  • The "I'm a PC and Windows 7 was my idea" commercials are REALLY dumb, in some aspects. You get an everyday looking guy or gal, and with the music, the exact inspiration of the idea is made into a bit of a "the fish was THIIIIIS big" sort of scenario. In the end, the cool thing- Microsoft held people's attention enough to show them a cool new feature- was there. Essentially, Microsoft said "Sorry for Vista. We listened to you for 7, so it's awesome! You can't be wrong."
  • The 15 second commercials that show people doing a task - say, enabling parental controls on the computer - were quite brilliant. There's a timer, the user wants to do something that most people think is a pain in the ass, and they not only find it, but are done in under a minute.

Meanwhile, Apple coasts on the Vista bashing commercials in general, and rides on it. Apple really failed in this regard, especially after Windows 7 came out, trying to be the only group of people saying "Windows 7 has the same problems! It's not really better!". It was a pretty surprising failure to me, and it kind of weakened the arguments of Apple to many people, who went from "I'm upgrading to something better" to "Well, they told me 7 was bad, and it's not. They just want to sell me a Mac."

As MS pushes up their plans, things have largely improved in the background anyways. Devs have gotten rid of their sloppy coding practices for the most part, so UAC prompts are rare- even if you turned them up from their lessened defaults. ATI & NVIDIA got used to the new driver model, and wrote stable drivers. MS fixed a lot of little bugs in the background.

But in the end, MS needs to make Windows 7 a separate product from Vista. You can't change a lot of the visual elements dramatically, or it'll be alien- especially to the XP holdouts. At the same time, Vista's image was shot- you can't have the first impression people have be "It looks just like Vista".



Enter the new "superbar".

Thank god for the superbar. Grouping of apps in prior versions of Windows SUCKED. With Aero Peek on the window contents, it's really easy to tell what's what at a glance. Everything's more consolidated as a whole. And it looks a lot different than the bars of the past. (They made a couple smaller tweaks, such as making the "shutdown button" default to shutdown instead of standby, showing the date with the time, and putting a "Show Desktop" button on the right side of the time. The little things add up, in the end. Especially the little features, and back assward menus (I think it took 6 clicks of network dialogs to see your full connection status in Vista when it took 3 in XP)

(I'd like to note at this time that, regardless of how much you feel that Redmond started their photocopiers, imitation IS the sincerest form of flattery - in the words of a certain Steven Jobs you may have heard of, "Great artists steal"). Nevertheless, I believe there are substantial differences between Windows and the Dock of OS X).


So Microsoft encourages everyone to download the Beta and RC. It runs great, since it didn't add a ton on and hardware got cheaper (among all the previous stuff). It's totally different. It's what Vista should have been. After waiting so long on XP- or hating Vista- everyone wanted to move on.

So they did. 7 was "great".

Don't get me wrong- I LOVE Windows 7. But my two computers running Vista are doing fine -the feature differences aren't worth the time to reinstall everything. They're stable, they run well, and I'm happy.

Anyhow, two cents from a pcfag with too much time to write a reply that no one will read. How many words is this rambling, anyway?

Mac sales and Windows sales are two different beasts. MS is locked out of the Premium end of the market, confined mostly to the low end. Even at the height of MS' Laptop Hunters ad campaign, Apple went on to sell *more* Macs. In a recession. Even with the existence of Windows 7, Apple continues to post record Mac sales, making a gradual transition to iPad extremely easy for the company - if that's Apple's intent. Windows 7 had no effect on Mac sales. Apple's ads didn't fail. They helped maintain Apple's position.

Microsoft is struggling to stay relevant in the face of Apple's success. Being bearish on Microsoft, despite their Windows Phone 7 announcement (again, very late) and Courier rumblings, is perfectly natural these days, thanks to one thing: Apple. The things Apple is doing right are the things Microsoft is notdoing. So in other words: Apple's successes have diminished Microsoft's growth prospects.

The tech industry thrives and moves forward on innovation. Microsoft is more of a quick follower (very often not so quick) rather than an innovator. They simply don't take risks. In its universal licensing, cash-cow historical product segments, mostly in operating systems and Office software, there aren't many new features they can offer to drive upgrades. The pickings are more slim year after year. While Apple, for instance, already has an iPad version of iWork. That was fast. Apple transitions software between devices like it's nobody's business. We already have iPads and an entire support structure of developers and content providers to drive its growth, while MS is still pushing lousy netbooks and poorly-designed tablet devices no one cares about (some of which haven't even been released yet - so people can continue not caring about them when they hit the shelves.)

In more current growth categories, like mobile, Microsoft is generally irrelevant. Apple's big advantage, and the reason it can create such compelling products, is the advantage it has enjoyed for a while now and applied in new and interesting ways: the integration of hardware + software. Microsoft is in a quagmire over the multitude of hardware platforms it has to support, which ends up creating a poor user experience - at least relative to Apple - which doesn't really help, since everything released these days is compared to Apple products. And the honour of holding the position of the one to which everything is compared is usually reserved for the company that sets the bar: Apple.

Microsoft is beginning to wake up to the benefits of Apple's model, but again, quite late. What MS is waking up to now, Apple chewed up and spat out years ago. Someone is really slow on the uptake and as a result users suffer. Until Microsoft churns out ONE effective device in each category that people will LOVE, and leaves behind the idea of whoring out their bad software to all hardware makers under the sun, they'll continue to struggle to offer relevant products. It took Microsoft 8 years to churn out a version of Windows that sucks less and gets a bit closer to OS X's level of polish. That's nothing to really be proud about when operating systems are supposed to be your core are of (in)competency.
 

thatrandomguy

macrumors regular
Nov 14, 2009
135
0
Mac sales and Windows sales are two different beasts. MS is locked out of the Premium end of the market, confined mostly to the low end.
Apple's happy where they are, and Microsoft is happy where they are. In the end, both companies are doing well.

Microsoft's doing well for overall marketshare. Apple has a profitable niche.

Both companies are fighting for the living room, the web, the mobile platform, and all of the other expanding markets.

Even at the height of MS' Laptop Hunters ad campaign, Apple went on to sell *more* Macs.
More notebooks. They sold fewer desktops (in at least one quarter in 2008). The market has been trending like that, though in general- more sales, more of them laptops.

Good for Apple, but hardly a sign of Microsoft failing.

Additionally, Apple cut prices significantly to compensate during the recession. And Windows 7 only came out at the end of 2009.

In a recession. Even with the existence of Windows 7, Apple continues to post record Mac sales, making a gradual transition to iPad extremely easy for the company - if that's Apple's intent. Windows 7 had no effect on Mac sales. Apple's ads didn't fail. They helped maintain Apple's position.
Not really.

I know at least half a dozen individuals who switched to Macs since Vista came out. None since 7 (I'm going to qualify that it HAS only been 6 months, but every 7 owner I know is happy with the OS.) . In fact, people who used to remark to me how Apple had "the best ads" now remark to me how it's same old, same old.

Apple is becoming a lean, mean profit machine- especially with their devices, they are making record profits. They are selling more Macs (the market is selling more PCs as a whole).

The question is whether they can continue this momentum.

Anyhow, Apple didn't fail, as in "APPLE SOLD FEWER MACS HOLY GOD". They hit the wrong target. The "Windows Vista isn't going to have any of the problems Windows XP had; Windows XP..." ad wasn't that good, because with the notable exceptions of ME (which was a disaster, I can testify to that) and Vista (to the average consumer), Windows versions were each better than the last.

There are numerous other points that Apple could have made. Heck, they could have re-aired the old virus, hardware problems, etc. ads they had- where there's still relevance in the mind of the average person.

Microsoft is struggling to stay relevant in the face of Apple's success.
They're fine in the short term. But the long term prospects are frightening.

They're losing the web to Google more and more every day. And they're losing many consumer electronics to Apple. And in the end, if Apple can convert a lot of people...maybe MS could become irrelevant.

They killed palm, failed to do anything with Windows Mobile...now BlackBerries, iPhones, Android phones, and other OSes put Windows Mobile in a position of little relevance.

No growth, no integration, eventually you're going to get outdated. And this is what scares Microsoft.

The organization is just too big to make changes. There's way too much intergroup conflict to get any major changes done quickly.

Which brings me to...

Microsoft knows that monoplies can rise and fall. They were lucky to get off so lightly with the monopoly lawsuit. They've trampled a lot of companies.


Being bearish on Microsoft, despite their Windows Phone 7 announcement (again, very late)
Windows Mobile 7, in my opinion, is pretty disgraceful. The level of photocopying disappoints me. Not intelligently targeting multitasking (if not full like previous WinMo versions, at least an Apple-like approach).

Some managers at MS thought "Wow, the iPhone is doing well". And they revamped WinMo...too little, too late.

and Courier rumblings
If Microsoft could actually get something out of the labs, they'd probably be a lot better off.

Microsoft has underestimated the first mover advantage for years.

is perfectly natural these days, thanks to one thing: Apple.
Microsoft is feeling too much pressure to copy Apple.

If you don't copy the things your consumers like, you're ignoring valuable insights your competitors have made.

But if you push innovation aside for the proven, you're always going to be in second place.

The things Apple is doing right are the things Microsoft is notdoing. So in other words: Apple's successes have diminished Microsoft's growth prospects.
Exactly. Microsoft understood this in the game market, and even though it cost them $8B, they've been making a steady profit in the games division for two years despite utterly failing on the hardware front (The original was reliable as a tank, but it was off the shelf- the hardware was never sold at a profit. The 360 was designed by people who didn't take good hardware design and airflow design into account, which is why its so unreliable, only better due to die shrinks. This is a problem I'm sure they'll avoid on the Xbox 3.)

They have a successful game network with millions of paying customers. They're making the console more of a media device and less of a game console- with Twitter, the avatars, Facebook, video rental, etc... They are trying to utilize the one monopoly they're doing well with to beat Apple in that battle for the living room.

Microsoft takes risks and then ignores them. The Zune sells, and has some really neat software, but I've seen...one Zune commercial, on the internet. There's no brand awareness. "Oh, that weird Microsoft iPod ripoff."

If Microsoft actually did advertising- got content deals. Made people aware the damn thing existed and that it not only existed, but had [cool stuff], they'd do really well. Instead, they take an investment, do something neat (the OLED screen of the Zune HD is unbelievably nice, in person- and the wireless syncing, etc. are really neat. And the Zune software runs a hell of a lot better than iTunes for Windows.), and then have no confidence or backing in it whatsoever.

The tech industry thrives and moves forward on innovation. Microsoft is more of a quick follower (very often not so quick) rather than an innovator.
If you've read what I said earlier...this is redundant as a reply. I agree.

They simply don't take risks.
They did it with the game console, and while it hurt for a while, they're in a dominant position with what is arguably the best console gaming network.

In its universal licensing, cash-cow historical product segments, mostly in operating systems and Office software, there aren't many new features they can offer to drive upgrades.
The major issue. They research a ton of neat **** in the lab. They release the cool but horribly impractical demos (Surface). Meanwhile? No courier.

They could do an Ubuntu Remix Style Windows 7 Edition for tablets. A few services disabled, more touch oriented...but the internal friction prevents them from innovating. The Office segment, from what I've read from postings by former employees, is really against non mouse/KB input and refused to implement many features requested by the tablet team.

The organization is too damn big. The current level of cooperation and sharing of work and ideas between groups is poor. The "old timers" are against innovating, if it ain't broke, etc... while many of the "young folks" think in a more Apple way: If you don't do it better than the other guy, you're going to lose.

The pickings are more slim year after year. While Apple, for instance, already has an iPad version of iWork.
They've probably been working on it for some time along with the iPad itself.

Apple being the hardware + software maker has distinct advantages. It means that they can develop that over time very closely with the hardware and have day one availability.

MS has to communicate with OEMs what they want to do. Changes have to be made over time. We want a road map, we want to be in development. And that doesn't help Microsoft to implement anything faster than Apple.

Apple transitions software between devices like it's nobody's business. We already have iPads and an entire support structure of developers
It's the exact thing that makes the iPad appealing as a content consumption device and unappealing to a nerd like myself. They didn't have to do a terribly hard amount of work- indeed, iFixIt found the A4 was an overclocked iPhone processor- besides the case, battery, and screen, the hardware footprint really isn't much bigger.

And yet, when it comes down to it...that doesn't really matter to a lot of people.



and content providers to drive its growth
Apple's been doing a good job at this for years. ABC and Netflix make the iPad a hell of a lot more compelling.

while MS is still pushing lousy netbooks
As a PC user, I'm going to have to stop you right there.

I bought an ASUS EEE PC 701 4G- and if you don't have ASUS' model numbers memorized, it was pretty much the netbook that started the craze. $400. 4GB SSD. 7" screen. An underclocked Celeron.

And yet the form factor is appealing to me and many others. They're durable. They're inexpensive. They do a lot of tasks (browsing the web, typing a lot of text, running normal windows apps) very well. Newer innovations- like the Ion- are making HD video a non-issue, while keeping their battery life up.

So if you want a cheaper, yet fully functional computer, you can get a really great netbook for $400. Or you can buy an iPad for $500 - which is hard to screw up, but is a lot more limited in what it can do, and isn't designed for extensive input...

And I'd trust a netbook in my backpack before I trusted a glass screen iPad. I'm already a complete nut about my iPod Touch.

Winding down on this little tangent: I don't see the netbook and iPad as devices that have to be in conflict. I don't think that netbooks are lousy either. They are smaller, and they won't get the framerates of an HD 5970. But they do a lot of tasks well. And when I thought of the tasks I use my netbook for- including watching video- I realized that there are more situations in which I wish I had the netbook instead of the iPad.

and poorly-designed tablet devices no one cares about (some of which haven't even been released yet - so people can continue not caring about them when they hit the shelves.)
Let us make a distinction between "device" and "computer". MS has great (could be better, but I'd argue leading) standard OS tablet integration. For artists, etc... there are some AWESOME tablets running Windows.

The iPad is going to be a lot cheaper. It's going to do fewer tasks very well.

But no one considering Thinkpad X61 will buy an iPad instead. Or vice versa. The markets are there.

The bigger problem goes back to the cultural problem MS has with playing it safe. They're the juggernaut and can afford the risks. They need to take more. They need to be there first more often.

With their experience and feedback, they should have been able to come out with a good tablet device years ago.

like mobile
I don't need to rethink what a disappointment WM7 and how it goes back to the fear of innovating again...right? :p

Microsoft is generally irrelevant
At the end of the day, Microsoft has a lot of servers, has the best OS to manage large corporate networks, has a huge software ecosystem, the bestselling office suite, and a variety of other popular tools.

MS- for the past five years, at least - has been coasting on their momentum. They can't do it forever. And the people who realize it in the organization don't get heeded- or, don't get heeded enough.

I'd say Microsoft is fine, bare minimum, 10 years. The question is whether they're going to rise back up or slowly crumble.

Apple's big advantage, and the reason it can create such compelling products, is the advantage it has enjoyed for a while now and applied in new and interesting ways: the integration of hardware + software.
It's certainly helped Apple. It helps in certain areas- like embedded devices.

Archos, for instance, has made very good players for years. If memory serves me correctly, Archos made the first HDD based MP3 player.

And why aren't we all carrying Archos'?

Because Archos software has always sucked. Their newer Android models are supposed to be pretty good, but at this point taking Apple's momentum away would be difficult. You'd need a killer app.

Microsoft is in a quagmire over the multitude of hardware platforms it has to support, which ends up creating a poor user experience - at least relative to Apple - which doesn't really help, since everything released these days is compared to Apple products.
Invariably. The main problem is we get in a cycle:
  1. A group at Microsoft has an idea for an innovative device.
  2. Said group encounters trouble implementing it for public use due to the bureaucracy of Microsoft.
  3. Because they don't make the hardware, they have to convince the OEMs to make devices with it.
  4. The OEMs come up with a laundry list of demands. They want to make sure the device investment is worth it, since [last Microsoft thing] didn't sell so well. Every OEM has a different list.
  5. MS tries to make the software do everything for everyone. This results in it being delayed, buggy, and/or feature incomplete.
  6. Whatever bad factors contribute to nothing more than moderate success.

MS needs to take good ideas and test them sooner, and actually get them out to the market. Show it to consumers, then tell talk to the OEMs later in the process. Make them accommodate a bit instead of trying to do backflips for everyone.

I think one of the biggest examples of this inconsistency (this is starting to hit Android- Google is actually going to address it though) is how you can buy a Windows Mobile device, have the new Windows Mobile come out 2 months later. MS give your manufacturer the ROM for free.

Unless you have a contracted cell phone- and your handset maker is in a particularly good mood- you'll never get it. Why would they give it to you? You can buy a new phone...

When MS restricts the hardware (e.x. Zune), they get a very usable device that they then fail to promote, because they're used to their partners marketing devices for them. And thus, people don't know about it.

And the honour of holding the position of the one to which everything is compared is usually reserved for the company that sets the bar: Apple.
Apple's lucky to be in that position. The good perception of the company and their recent successes have done well for their brand image. (Now, I think Apple is great in some areas and overhyped in others, but let's avoid a topic we'll never agree on, hmmm?)


Microsoft is beginning to wake up to the benefits of Apple's model, but again, quite late.
With the exception of the Zune and the Xbox, not really. I think it's downright stupid that they didn't have a tablet device (not PC) out before Apple.

What MS is waking up to now, Apple chewed up and spat out years ago. Someone is really slow on the uptake and as a result users suffer.
Don't need to tell me. I like Windows. I like Microsoft Office. My Xbox, despite some issues, has the best online service- miles ahead of my PS3 and Wii.

And yet I use Google for my email, I own an iPod, I buy apps through the app store. MS has too many threats to sit near-still.

Until Microsoft churns out ONE effective device in each category that people will LOVE, and leaves behind the idea of whoring out their bad software to all hardware makers under the sun, they'll continue to struggle to offer relevant products.
Ah, but there's the catch 22:
Let's say that Microsoft stated tomorrow that only Microsoft PCs will run Windows. Yeah, they'll be a bit more expensive, and there won't be many models. But they'll run well. In other words, MS pulls an Apple in the regard we're talknig about.

They're using a de facto monopoly on one thing (desktop OS) to get it on another (hardware).

MS doesn't want to get broken up - it's safer to do things the old fashioned way in the eyes of the management. But a company that doesn't adapt doesn't keep ahead.

It took Microsoft 8 years to churn out a version of Windows that sucks less and gets a bit closer to OS X's level of polish.
It took them 6 years to do that (Vista was a bit closer to 7s polish). They took a gun and firmly shot themselves in the foot with all the stuff I described before.

Vista wasn't bad. The launch was.

That's nothing to really be proud about when operating systems are supposed to be your core are of (in)competency.

I'm very happy with Windows. At the end of the day, it runs many apps that aren't available on Mac OS or Linux, and I'm comfortable in the environment. For the reasons I described before, Microsoft damaged the reputation of Vista by FUBARing the launch. The OS itself wasn't bad.

The experiences I've had with Macs over the past few years haven't been as good. I've used Macs on a daily basis for a while now and I just don't see a compelling reason to switch. Hell, I could run OS X for free on my PC if I wanted to by hackintoshing- but I really fail to see any personal advantage to doing so.

Of course, I build my own PCs and run ThinkPads, which hit the wall at 35MPH and are still in usable shape afterwards. That probably helps things- as well as not using dirt cheap motherboards and other components that have horribly written drivers because they're made solely for price.
 

mac2x

macrumors 65816
Sep 19, 2009
1,146
0
[...] At the end of the day, it runs many apps that aren't available on Mac OS or Linux, [...]

Loved your thoughtful posts above! ;)

However, the converse is also true here. Since Mac OS X is Unix, it runs a buttload of great open source stuff that often has no equivalent in Windows. Depends on your needs I guess. :)
 

thatrandomguy

macrumors regular
Nov 14, 2009
135
0
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I'm enjoying the discussion so far. ;)

I normally go to an decidedly anti-Apple board (which shall remain nameless :rolleyes: ). Getting a rational discussion there is impossible.

Most people here are rational, at least. There's a discussion. As a PC user I'm going to disagree with you on certain points, but on others- yeah, we have no problem conceding.

There are a few very devout members of the Mac faithful here though... conversation is kind of futile. Like when I explained how my Mac OS loving friend Hackintoshed a Mini 10v here.

BOOM. We both won the Bad Person Award. I explained that I didn't legally justify it, but under the technical definition of the word, Apple made a profit on that boxed copy of Snow Leopard (and how that doesn't work with mass hackintoshing due to economy of scale with software) because he would have run Windows on the machine (in a segment in which Apple offers no alternative. And the netbook runs open applications and has a real keyboard- so the iPad doesn't count! He got it to do development on the go.)

Some people didn't even read what I posted and told me how I was a filthy criminal and a terrible person for hackintoshing :eek:

I did, of course, have a good debate with some posters here. If I remember correctly...AppleMojo and I debated it.

I don't actually think we came to a full on agreement in the end. We couldn't agree that Apple made a profit (I argued from a balance sheet perspective; he argued from the "Macs cost more than the CD to make perspective", and then we both argued for quite a bit after that.)
 
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