Apps WorkOutDoors: New workout features

[cfc]

@cfc: looking forward to the next update of WOD, can't wait until HIIT is introduced . Still 2 quick questions on the current version:

1) When I do a run with the WOD app, the app automatically reports the time of each 1km. When the data are exported to Strava, I also see very similar 1km lap times. Sometimes with minor differences, but I guess this may have to do with minor differences in GPS data processing (Strava distances are typically also slightly lower).
However, when I export the same data from WOD to Garmin Connect (.FIT data via the Healthfit app), Garmin Connect does not report any 1km lap times. Is there any way that I would be able to achieve this? This is a very convenient way to monitor the evolution of my pace during my runs.

2) The next major WOD update may have a fix for this when HIIT is introduced, but nevertheless: when I manually start a new lap e.g. after let's say 5.6km, the next lap time will be at 6.0km. Also when I'm running an interval of e.g. 600m. This behavior is different I believe from how my previous Garmin watch handled this: it would report the next lap time at 6.6km (or less if I started a new lap before that distance). Any way to avoid that the automatic 1km lap creation interferes with manual lap times?

There are two reasons for the similar but slightly different lap times in Strava. Firstly the app uses Apple's pedometer-assisted distance estimates by default but these cannot be includes in GPX files, which can only contain the route. So Strava determines distances using the route, which is why they can be slightly different. The next version of the app exports TCX files, which can contain both the route and the distances.

The second reason is that Strava do their own moving time analysis, which is annoying for many users. I have heard that if you change the run type to Race then they use elapsed time, but this seems inconsistent.

The current version of the app does not save the lap details in Apple's Health system. This is because Apple's Activity app seems to think that laps are only relevant for swimming and calls them "Lengths", which confuses people. However I have added them in the next version despite this, so they should get through to Garmin Connect. If they do not then you will be able to export from the app instead of via the Health system. The use of TCX files means that all the information should be consistent with WorkOutDoors, because Garmin are very good at respecting the contents of the file, whereas Strava seem to like to do their own thing!

I think it is subjective whether or not a manual lap should then be used as a base for the next auto-lap or whether it should just result in splitting the current lap. You are right though - I should probably add an option to allow the user the choose (I like options!) but if I do it for the next release then it will default to the current way of working. This is because I do not want to break anything so late in the testing process: if there is an issue (and hopefully there will not be) then I only want it to affect users who change the setting.
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I think the main issue we have with workoutdoors is the consistency when exporting to other platforms.
You have big differences between Workoutdoors, apple health, Strava, Garmin and it depends on the way you try to export (direct export, tcx, healthfit ...)
I don't have this kind of issue with other applications, it's always consistent. WO has some problems to handle pauses.
That's the only reason I don't always use it

Are you basing this on the WorkOutDoors beta that you have been testing? I detailed the reasons for the differences that you saw in an email (rather than on a public forum).

 

[rbart]

Yes it’s based on the beta.
I understand the explanations but it still annoys me
I don’t have this problem with other apps.
So it limits the WO usage for me. It’s a shame because it’s the best app but this problem is really annoying for me

 

[cfc]

Yes it’s based on the beta.
I understand the explanations but it still annoys me
I don’t have this problem with other apps.
So it limits the WO usage for me. It’s a shame because it’s the best app but this problem is really annoying for me

If you understand the explanations then you know that the differences you were seeing were due to the different ways of exporting the workout: GPX (where the destination needs to calculate distances and pauses from the route), TCX (where the distances and pause details are included, but not always respected by the destination) and Apple Health (where the Activity app only shows elapsed time).

I could improve consistency by removing all the different export options and just saving to Apple's Health system like some other apps do. Instead I like to give users the choice of ways to export. Unfortunately by giving this choice I get some people complaining that the results can vary depending on the approach, which is something that is out of my hands.

 

[rbart]

When I run, I use auto pause (except for races).
If I run with Strava, NRC, Apple activity, Intervals Pro, the data inside the app (for the average moving pace, when you exclude the pause time) is always equal in the app, in apple health, in strava, in healthfit and strava. You can have very small differences (1 second/km) but it's not important.
In workoutdoors, on a 15km trail I had 5mn26 in WO, 5mn15 in apple health, 5mn40 in Garmin, 5mn10 in Strava direct export...
That's too much difference, I think there is something wrong somewhere and it's not reliable enough for me.
If I remove auto-pause or if I don't make any pause (race), it's perfect, I have the same results in all apps with all export modes.
It's a pity because WO is far better than all other apps, lot of exclusive function, lot of data, lot of custo, but I can't find a correct way to have data consistency between apps/platforms, and it's the only "workout" app I have tested which has this kind of issue.
Maybe I am alone to complain about this ...

 

[cfc]

At least it is only an issue when pausing. The app uses Apple's auto-pause function when running and only if the user specifically switches it on.

Apple Health shows elapsed time and not moving time, which is why that is different (HealthFit shows both). Strava does its own moving analysis and calculates the distance from the route, which is why that is different. How do you send to Garmin?

You are not the only one to spot that different export mechanisms give different stats but you are the only one to say that other apps are completely consistent. I don't know why that would be (especially if they are using the pedometer and sending a GPX file that can only contain the route). Maybe they all use the same format to export whereas WorkOutDoors can send data to Strava via GPX, TCX or FIT (via HealthFit). As I say, giving a choice of export options is probably setting myself up for complaints. I am frequently tempted to just save to Apple Health and not offer any other export possibilities.

 

[rbart]

In Strava, I always look at moving time (which is shown as default, as apple activity and healthfit).
All apps save data in Apple Health and I export it with Healthfit to other platforms : strava, runalyze and FIT to Garmin.
All is consistent with all apps. For me it's a perfect workflow, very easy with convenient and reliable.
If I do the same with WO, I have very strange results. I get very different results in each platform.

 

[cfc]

In Strava, I always look at moving time (which is shown as default, as apple activity and healthfit).
All apps save data in Apple Health and I export it with Healthfit to other platforms : strava, runalyze and FIT to Garmin.
All is consistent with all apps. For me it's a perfect workflow, very easy with convenient and reliable.
If I do the same with WO, I have very strange results. I get very different results in each platform.

So you get different results despite going via HealthFit for each platform? That is a completely different matter. There is nothing WorkOutDoors can do about that - it saves the data once to the health system and then HealthFit reads it and passes it on as a FIT file. Unless HealthFit is sending different data to each platform then it sounds like the platforms are interpreting the same data differently.

 

[rbart]

No, sorry for my bad english, it's not well explained.
If I use Healthfit with other apps, it's consistent. All the results are OK and consistent in all platforms.
If I use it withh WO, I get different results, as if healthfit was not able to build a good FIT file from what WO has stored in Apple Health.
Maybe there is somothing corrupted or missing in apple health data saved by WO ?
As it's not working with healthfit, I have tried with other WO export options and I haven't found any way to have consistent data. There is always a problem.
It's really a pity for me, I WANT to use this app and remove the other apps as yours is really better in all ways.
But when I want to have reliable results in Strava, I am forced to use another one (mainly apple or Intervals pro) ...

 

[cfc]

No, sorry for my bad english, it's not well explained.
If I use Healthfit with other apps, it's consistent. All the results are OK and consistent in all platforms.
If I use it withh WO, I get different results, as if healthfit was not able to build a good FIT file from what WO has stored in Apple Health.
Maybe there is somothing corrupted or missing in apple health data saved by WO ?
As it's not working with healthfit, I have tried with other WO export options and I haven't found any way to have consistent data. There is always a problem.
It's really a pity for me, I WANT to use this app and remove the other apps as yours is really better in all ways.
But when I want to have reliable results in Strava, I am forced to use another one (mainly apple or Intervals pro) ...

Has this always been the case or is it just a problem with the beta?

 

[rbart]

It was different with "production" version.
It was OK when exporting directly to strava but data in Apple health had problems with pauses. So I couldn't use healthfit.

 

[cfc]

It was different with "production" version.
It was OK when exporting directly to strava but data in Apple health had problems with pauses. So I couldn't use healthfit.

So it is an issue with the beta (or one of the systems downstream of the health system). I prefer to discuss beta issues by email, so let's continue this discussion that way.

 

[rbart]

If I can help, I will be very happy to contribute to the greatest app on the AW !

 

[Cseilern]

Glad you like the app. At the moment I am focussed on improving the watch app as much as possible, but I will add live information on the iPhone screen at some time in the future. It would also be a step towards making the app work on an iPhone without a watch, which would massively increase the potential user base. But, as I say, I don't have any plans to add it in the short term. Sorry about that.

The next version of the app has a lot of improvements in terms of voice feedback, which may help reduce the need to look at the display so often. It includes several new alerts and all alerts will have the ability to configure what is shown on the screen and also up to 5 different spoken metrics from a pool of over 300 metrics. So you could have some metrics reported every minute and others reported every mile.

It will also have "status reports" which allow you to manually request to see and/or hear a configurable set of metrics. So for example you could make it that you double tap the screen to hear the metrics that you need most. You can configure up to 3 different status reports, so you could have different gestures giving you different sets of metrics.

 

[Cseilern]

Glad you like the app. At the moment I am focussed on improving the watch app as much as possible, but I will add live information on the iPhone screen at some time in the future. It would also be a step towards making the app work on an iPhone without a watch, which would massively increase the potential user base. But, as I say, I don't have any plans to add it in the short term. Sorry about that.

The next version of the app has a lot of improvements in terms of voice feedback, which may help reduce the need to look at the display so often. It includes several new alerts and all alerts will have the ability to configure what is shown on the screen and also up to 5 different spoken metrics from a pool of over 300 metrics. So you could have some metrics reported every minute and others reported every mile.

It will also have "status reports" which allow you to manually request to see and/or hear a configurable set of metrics. So for example you could make it that you double tap the screen to hear the metrics that you need most. You can configure up to 3 different status reports, so you could have different gestures giving you different sets of metrics.

I am also an avid fan (thank you Ian for the brilliant app) and I would echo that request to have live watch app activity data on the phone app screen during a workout.

I cycle a lot and right now I glance at the watch, which means I am taking my hand off the handlebar. Works most of the time, but it is neither practical nor safe in certain cases.

Audio would help but in a windy/noisy environment it is likely not to be useful.

Having stats visible in front of you, hands free, on a bike would be great. I am not talking about turning the phone app into a full fledged standalone activity tracking app that is independent of the watch, but giving the phone app the ability to display watch data during a workout - more like a remote display of the watch.

it is a simple feature, but one that is difficult to have for Apple watch cyclists currently - there are no cyclist "dashboard" apps in the app store that don't track the activity, and the cheapo LCD non GPS bike computers are too awful for words.

 

[cfc]

I am also an avid fan (thank you Ian for the brilliant app) and I would echo that request to have live watch app activity data on the phone app screen during a workout.

I cycle a lot and right now I glance at the watch, which means I am taking my hand off the handlebar. Works most of the time, but it is neither practical nor safe in certain cases.

Audio would help but in a windy/noisy environment it is likely not to be useful.

Having stats visible in front of you, hands free, on a bike would be great. I am not talking about turning the phone app into a full fledged standalone activity tracking app that is independent of the watch, but giving the phone app the ability to display watch data during a workout - more like a remote display of the watch.

it is a simple feature, but one that is difficult to have for Apple watch cyclists currently - there are no cyclist "dashboard" apps in the app store that don't track the activity, and the cheapo LCD non GPS bike computers are too awful for words.

Glad you like the app. I will definitely add this at some time, but it is not quite as simple as it sounds.

Firstly sending the data from the watch to the phone is likely to be challenging. This is because comms between the watch and the phone aren't particularly reliable at the best of times. At the moment the app does not rely on data being transferred in real-time, which is what would be required during a workout. Showing the elapsed time and location (on a map) would be easy, and hopefully so would elevation, but other information such as distance (which is provided by watchOS), pace, etc could be slightly delayed. I don't know for sure, because I haven't tried it, but I am suspicious of the reliability.

Secondly if I am going to show live information then I would want to allow users to configure which metrics are shown on the screen and where they are shown, just like you can on the watch app. This would probably involve multiple screens and default configurations, including special screens during intervals. None of this is particularly difficult given that it has all been coded in the watch app already, but it would be time consuming to change it for the much larger screens.

To be honest once that is done then the extra work needed to turn it into a standalone iPhone app is pretty minimal. I would just start the workout on the iPhone (it's the same code as starting it on the watch) and send the metrics directly to the iPhone display instead of from the watch to the phone and then to be displayed.

So the sort of live display of the data that you want would actually be most of the way towards a standalone iPhone app, and in some ways would be more work than just making the app work standalone on the iPhone, because the comms are likely to be an issue.

This is all speculation, and when I get time after this release I plan to have a quick play with sending the metrics to the phone, just to see how it goes from the point of view of reliability and feasibility.

 

[rbart]

I think it's a better strategy to stay focus on the watch app. It's the greatest apple watch app and it's a true difference compared to other.

 

[Significant1]

Firstly sending the data from the watch to the phone is likely to be challenging. This is because comms between the watch and the phone aren't particularly reliable at the best of times. At the moment the app does not rely on data being transferred in real-time, which is what would be required during a workout. Showing the elapsed time and location (on a map) would be easy, and hopefully so would elevation, but other information such as distance (which is provided by watchOS), pace, etc could be slightly delayed. I don't know for sure, because I haven't tried it, but I am suspicious of the reliability.

Secondly if I am going to show live information then I would want to allow users to configure which metrics are shown on the screen and where they are shown, just like you can on the watch app. This would probably involve multiple screens and default configurations, including special screens during intervals. None of this is particularly difficult given that it has all been coded in the watch app already, but it would be time consuming to change it for the much larger screens.

To be honest once that is done then the extra work needed to turn it into a standalone iPhone app is pretty minimal. I would just start the workout on the iPhone (it's the same code as starting it on the watch) and send the metrics directly to the iPhone display instead of from the watch to the phone and then to be displayed.

So the sort of live display of the data that you want would actually be most of the way towards a standalone iPhone app, and in some ways would be more work than just making the app work standalone on the iPhone, because the comms are likely to be an issue.

This is all speculation, and when I get time after this release I plan to have a quick play with sending the metrics to the phone, just to see how it goes from the point of view of reliability and feasibility.

My use case is a bit different, since it is for indoor use on threadmill and elliptical trainer, which the current versions doesn't even support yet. But I am mainly/only interesting in live HR, since the machines already shows the other relevant realtime metrics.

So even though I wouldn't mind full blown feature parity with Apple Watch display metrics from day one, it may be better to take smaller steps.

For now though I have solved it another way, by buying an garmin Vivosmart 4. It gives me realtime HR and Steps in the garmin connect app and some other added benefits. It also allows me to manually edit my stride length, which could also be a nice feature in Workoutdoor with indoor workouts, since Apple's black box calibration has not been very accurate for me (hope it will be better next time, because I have been doing some runs outside with Apple's built-in app).

 

[Cseilern]

Wow - Thanks for the quick feedback! Completely agree with @rbart: focus should remain on the watch since the watch will be taken on *every* workout as opposed to the phone that will only be taken on some workouts.

But I think I was also thinking about something a little simpler than what I ended up describing.

I don't think there is a need for the phone to be an exact mirror of the watch, where all data needs to be live streamed from the watch to the phone.

But I do think there is a need to fill in instances where the watch is inconvenient to use, or where the watch takes a more passive role in the workout

Cycling is one such instance (where looking at your wrist is not always a good idea).

I could see that to also be the case in snow sports, where digging under clothing layers with big gloves might be more of a pain than getting a phone it of a jacket pocket.

Maybe a simple dashboard, mostly independent of the watch, with locally sourced data would do the trick? I.e. workout specific data is only pulled infrequently ( average speed, VAM, etc... do not need to be live!) Whereas workout independent data can come from the phone (speed, altitude, etc...)

 

[twisted-pixel]

not specifically related to this app, but since I started using it I know this is what I need..where I can download GPX files of trail runs etc. Bored of going on the same runs but some of them in CA are extensive and easy to get lost. Thought I might be able to find some new ones and use the app to help me follow the route

 

[cfc]

Wow - Thanks for the quick feedback! Completely agree with @rbart: focus should remain on the watch since the watch will be taken on *every* workout as opposed to the phone that will only be taken on some workouts.

But I think I was also thinking about something a little simpler than what I ended up describing.

I don't think there is a need for the phone to be an exact mirror of the watch, where all data needs to be live streamed from the watch to the phone.

But I do think there is a need to fill in instances where the watch is inconvenient to use, or where the watch takes a more passive role in the workout

Cycling is one such instance (where looking at your wrist is not always a good idea).

I could see that to also be the case in snow sports, where digging under clothing layers with big gloves might be more of a pain than getting a phone it of a jacket pocket.

Maybe a simple dashboard, mostly independent of the watch, with locally sourced data would do the trick? I.e. workout specific data is only pulled infrequently ( average speed, VAM, etc... do not need to be live!) Whereas workout independent data can come from the phone (speed, altitude, etc...)

I agree that there are times when information on the phone would be more useful. As I say I will add that sort of functionality in the future, but I don't want to do a limited version in the meantime. If I do then I know from experience that people will email me with complaints about it being limited, and probably mark the app down in reviews because it isn't as good in that area as dedicated iPhone workout apps.

Unfortunately adding new functionality generally gives people more to complain about, so I try to add it reasonably fully-formed, like with the new intervals features in the next version.
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not specifically related to this app, but since I started using it I know this is what I need..where I can download GPX files of trail runs etc. Bored of going on the same runs but some of them in CA are extensive and easy to get lost. Thought I might be able to find some new ones and use the app to help me follow the route

You could try www.gpsies.com, who have millions of GPS routes to download. It looks like they have recently been taken over by AllTrails, so I hope that doesn't mean any new restrictions.

 

[user1234]

After unpairing and repairing my watch my screens refuse to sync back to WorkOutDoors. Not only that, but my screens reverted to default in the iPhone app after uninstalling and reinstalling the watch app in a effort to get it to sync. I have a backup of my screens but can't find anywhere to restore. Any help appreciated.

Edit:
Figured it out. Opened the backup file from files and shared it to WorkOutDoors. Watch is back in sync now too

 

[cfc]

After unpairing and repairing my watch my screens refuse to sync back to WorkOutDoors. Not only that, but my screens reverted to default in the iPhone app after uninstalling and reinstalling the watch app in a effort to get it to sync. I have a backup of my screens but can't find anywhere to restore. Any help appreciated.

Edit:
Figured it out. Opened the backup file from files and shared it to WorkOutDoors. Watch is back in sync now too

Glad you figured it out! Unfortunately watchOS isn't very good at preserving the state of watch apps so sometimes it has to be done via the iPhone app.

 

[Cseilern]

I agree that there are times when information on the phone would be more useful. As I say I will add that sort of functionality in the future, but I don't want to do a limited version in the meantime. If I do then I know from experience that people will email me with complaints about it being limited, and probably mark the app down in reviews because it isn't as good in that area as dedicated iPhone workout apps.

Unfortunately adding new functionality generally gives people more to complain about, so I try to add it reasonably fully-formed, like with the new intervals features in the next version.
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You could try www.gpsies.com, who have millions of GPS routes to download. It looks like they have recently been taken over by AllTrails, so I hope that doesn't mean any new restrictions.

Thanks again for that Ian. As always, your engagement and response is commendable. I did manage to fill the gap while you grapple with priorities in the feature roadmap with a £3 app called CycleComputer. Not the exact solution i was after (it does not have workout specific data), but good enough for the time being. Took me a while fishing around the app store to find it, but am glad I found it - it is great at doing what I needed, namely a bike dashboard on my phone which is mounted on my Garmin mount with a $5 iPhone case I picked up on Alibaba.

 

[Significant1]

Not the exact solution i was after (it does not have workout specific data)
View attachment 855403

Cyclemeter runs a workout and supports live Apple watch heart rate. For my use case it was too messy, missing elliptical workout and require subscription.

 

[adrianlondon]

Cyclemeter runs a workout and supports live Apple watch heart rate. For my use case it was too messy, missing elliptical workout and require subscription.

I love Cyclemeter. Despite their (Abvio) website looking half abandoned, the app is very up to date. Its screens are fully customisable. So much so, I probably spent more time customising the screens during the first few months than actually riding, but that's just me.

The subscription pricing annoys me, but it's the only app with a subscription that I use, and I justify it to myself by how responsive the developers are to questions/bugs. If your main or only sport is cycling, and you love total customisation, then Cyclemeter can't be beat. However, for a one-off £3 (instead of an annual £10) you can just get CycleComputer. Simple, clear, not really customisable. I wish my obsessive personality would let me be happy with that - it'd be cheaper.

Cyclemeter also tracks my hikes really well. It can also track runs, but I'm not into running/jogging - each time I think it'd be a great thing to do for my health I just get bored and wish I was cycling.

I'm still following this thread though, as the Workoutdoors app has some really cool looking stats/screens. As someone who doesn't wear a watch of any kind, I'm sticking with Cyclemeter for the time being.