Yosemite looks terrible!

[sgtbob]

Yosemite

I've not found the new OS as bad as those who who seem to indicate. After all, I came to Apple after years of putting up with the stuff Windows and PC's produced with their constant tweaking and changes. Have those who have written of their frustration forgotten their experiences with other systems? I have not and will continue with Apple as long as they provide a good product that works.

 

[leman]

This thread has a view count of nearly 200,000. I've never seen anything like that from any other OS release. I've seen complaints about the minor appearance changes that have occurred in the past, and the problems (bugs) that always occur when a new release comes out, but never anything like this. There is no comparison.

Its because you are not looking in the right place. Sure, this thread and the Yosemite subforms show way more activity than any other OS X until now. But why do you think its because of the negativity and not because both OS X and MacRumors become more popular?

Let's do some comparison on the 10.10 vs 10.9 subforums. We can easily sort the threads by the number of views. The immediate observation: the 10.10 forums are just insanely more popular. For instance, the the 10.9 'all the little things' topic has gathered 364,516 views since it was created in June 2013 — thats 1.5 years ago! The same thread for 10.10 has almost double the views — 596,345 only after half a year! On average, the 10.10-threads just tend to have many more views. So either a) we have more users now and b) the users are much more interested in Yosemite than in Mavericks, or (most likely) both.

Now, given that massive increase in users that actively follow up on this subforum, its quite obvious that a provocative title like 'Yosemite looks terrible!' will draw attention and also an occasional response. As I said before, Yosemite is the first significant paintjob that OS X has received within the single OS iteration, so its going to be polarising. I still don't see how you can claim that its overwhelmingly negatively received.

Tl;DR summary: we observe a dramatic increase of overall user activity in Yosemite subforums compared to Mavericks, and with this, the perception of increased negativity is an illusion coming. If you have double the users, then you shouldn't be surprised that there will be twice as many negative posts. Or maybe even more, given that people with negative experience are more likely to comment on these kinds of threads.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Its because you are not looking in the right place. Sure, this thread and the Yosemite subforms show way more activity than any other OS X until now. But why do you think its because of the negativity and not because both OS X and MacRumors become more popular?

Let's do some comparison on the 10.10 vs 10.9 subforums. We can easily sort the threads by the number of views. The immediate observation: the 10.10 forums are just insanely more popular. For instance, the the 10.9 'all the little things' topic has gathered 364,516 views since it was created in June 2013 — thats 1.5 years ago! The same thread for 10.10 has almost double the views — 596,345 only after half a year! On average, the 10.10-threads just tend to have many more views. So either a) we have more users now and b) the users are much more interested in Yosemite than in Mavericks, or (most likely) both.

Now, given that massive increase in users that actively follow up on this subforum, its quite obvious that a provocative title like 'Yosemite looks terrible!' will draw attention and also an occasional response. As I said before, Yosemite is the first significant paintjob that OS X has received within the single OS iteration, so its going to be polarising. I still don't see how you can claim that its overwhelmingly negatively received.

Tl;DR summary: we observe a dramatic increase of overall user activity in Yosemite subforums compared to Mavericks, and with this, the perception of increased negativity is an illusion coming. If you have double the users, then you shouldn't be surprised that there will be twice as many negative posts. Or maybe even more, given that people with negative experience are more likely to comment on these kinds of threads.

Facts or let us say figures can be interpreted either way as we all know from the subject of statistics.

Yo have a sound point in the "first significant OS X paintjob issue".
I am convinced that the "polirization factor" could've been foreseen, thus would've needed much more marketing/consumer satisfaction pre-analysis. But the sense of comfortable state of domination and ability to influence the consumer environment prevailed.

 

[leman]

Yo have a sound point in the "first significant OS X paintjob issue".
I am convinced that the "polirization factor" could've been foreseen, thus would've needed much more marketing/consumer satisfaction pre-analysis. But the sense of comfortable state of domination and ability to influence the consumer environment prevailed.

I never wrote 'issue' And, no — if you change anything, you will always get a bunch of people who don't like the change. You will get many more if you change several things at the same time. The only way you can make everyone happy is by staying conservative and change as little as possible (Microsoft pre Windows-8 is a great example). Apple never did that. They where always about 'We know better, so take it or leave it. You are going to take is anyway and you know it'. And they had a lot of success with this approach. Don't see why Yosemite should be any different. Sure, a bunch of self-proclaimed "pro" users might switch to a different platform. Not a big deal. More will join in.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

They where always about 'We know better, so take it or leave it. You are going to take is anyway and you know it'. And they had a lot of success with this approach.

Expression "issue" taken back. #
You are right, they had success with this approach. It leads to negligence in many cases and in the long run not only the ups, but the downs of life can be experienced.

 

[leman]

It leads to negligence in many cases and in the long run not only the ups, but the downs of life can be experienced.

Oh, no doubt about that. They had plenty of failed products. And I agree that Apple is negligent — they seem to often push software out with very little or no prior testing. Right now, they have to get their wits together and fix the internal issues they seem to have plenty — or they will get overtaken by others. OS X was way ahead of the curve in times of Snow Leopard, now its only barely ahead. Apple does have some current moves (system-wide standardised plugin architecture), but what they need to maintain their technical superiority is distributed storage (which btw. also seems to be in works) and a reliable relational file system. Those features could really differentiate OS X from other operating systems.

 

[grahamperrin]

Creativity, coding, responsibilities, the best …

… Thanks to the user who posted the Susan Kare link you really brouhgt me to a great place, (heres another one) and the clue is in her name she takes a lot of "Care" and still does when she designs. …

Thanks. Here's part of that user's post:

…
Yosemite UI appears to be an amalgamation of the artistic visons of several comittees who did not talk to each other very often, much less come together to build a unified whole.
Does Apple even have an all powerful aesthetics czar (creative director) anymore?
Susan Kare did some damn fine work, but her like does not appear to be found at Apple now days.

… Cook rhymes with Books, and maybe that's all he's interested in.

Jobs …

Related (other topics)

… Ive, Cook, and Federighi are not responsible for actually coding the software, but they are the head of software development. It is there responsibility to have teams and testing policies in place to catch major bugs.

I still don't think Forstall is the answer.

… Unlike many of the others here, I like Tim Cook. I think he's a great structural leader, but maybe not for a company that advertises the "best products we can make." Jobs wasn't much better, but I think he was better. A few years ago I felt Apple really was trying to make the best products it could make within reason. Now, Apple seems much more like a cold "business." About money, not people. …

/Rant (I think you can tell I'm a bit annoyed)

Apple's Culture is actually not that creative.

 

[grahamperrin]

… Tl;DR summary: we observe a dramatic increase of overall user activity in Yosemite subforums compared to Mavericks, and with this, the perception of increased negativity is an illusion coming. If you have double the users, then you shouldn't be surprised that there will be twice as many negative posts. Or maybe even more, given that people with negative experience are more likely to comment on these kinds of threads.

I understand your points, their relevance should not be underestimated.

However, I am certain that the relatively great negativity around OS X Yosemite (compared to other operating systems from Apple) is more than illusive.

… Apple is negligent — they seem to often push software out with very little or no prior testing.

It's reasonable to assume that some of the recent problems with software (bugs etc.) are due to lack of testing and/or lack of quality assurance/quality control.

However I am certain that there's no lack of testing.

In a vaguer way, I doubt that QA people are to blame –

… suspect that some of the QA advice is ignored by management at some level. That's not necessarily a failing of that level of management …

– and potentially more annoying than the lack of explanation in that last sentence: I'm not at liberty to give detailed reasons for my certainty in the two areas above. Sorry.

Right now, they have to get their wits together and fix the internal issues …

iCloud Development Held Up By 'Deep Organizational Issues' at Apple – I see the article, but I have not had time to gauge whether there's anything substantial (or substantially newsworthy) to the 'organisational issues' aspect.

2014-09-30:

Someone needs to go full Steve Jobs on the QA team at Apple.

Amongst the notable responses:

The testers didn't put in the bugs. Entire team need to take pride in their work & shoulder responsibility.

The QA team at Apple is not the problem. The system is the problem.

This is a pretty irresponsible tweet from someone with engineering management experience and a lot of followers.

The tweet about irresponsible writing is understandable, and (for what it's worth) I do not agree that "Someone needs to go full Steve Jobs on the QA team at Apple". Somewhat paradoxically, that first tweet about QA remains a favourite of mine because the writer is well-respected for responsible writing in other areas. (I can't fully explain the paradox without taking things off-topic.)

Soon …

My guesses about why the openness of the OS X Beta Program did not result in a more widely-pleasing release of OS X 10.10. It's a big picture that can (must) be painted with respect for all concerned.

Consider these two screenshots, from a well-known publication:

Obviously they both relate to Feedback Assistant and to the OS X Beta Seed Program.

Without focusing on the words: what do both images have in common?

 

[Omega Mac]

This?

 

[grahamperrin]

This? …

Yes, but without focusing on the title bar … look at the four corners, the extents. What do the two shots have in common? Something very basic …

 

[Badagri]

Contrast? Elegance?

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Skeuomorphism.

 

[Badagri]

So many people freaked out at Unified and Calendar…

 

[Cubytus]

However I am certain that there's no lack of testing.

AFAIK the public beta should have been opened as a way for the public to test features

Consider these two screenshots, from a well-known publication:

Image
Image

Obviously they both relate to Feedback Assistant and to the OS X Beta Seed Program.

Without focusing on the words: what do both images have in common?

I can't readily see the common features, but the Mavericks one at least informs the user at a glance what it's about.

 

[Omega Mac]

Yes, but without focusing on the title bar … look at the four corners, the extents. What do the two shots have in common? Something very basic …

Shadow gradient.

 

[GerritV]

<snip>Obviously they both relate to Feedback Assistant and to the OS X Beta Seed Program.
Without focusing on the words: what do both images have in common?

A not to be misunderstood BUTTON

 

[grahamperrin]

iPad-shaped Feedback Assistant?

They're both fixed size. Probably the same size and aspect ratio.

Anyway. Just one of the two, the sign in window. Amongst my first thoughts, when I saw it on a Mac, was "it's iPad-shaped" – something like what's attached to this post.

Quick question. Can anyone with an iPad tell me, would the size and shape of that window be the sort of thing that's expected on an iPad? Ignoring the title bar, of course.

(This might seem off-topic, but it's not. Leading up to something.)

 

[hamis92]

Quick question. Can anyone with an iPad tell me, would the size and shape of that window be the sort of thing that's expected on an iPad? Ignoring the title bar, of course.

(This might seem off-topic, but it's not. Leading up to something.)

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. On an iPad (as well as other iOS devices) there are no 'windows' in the way we understand them on Mac OS. Whichever app is open takes up the whole screen and therefore the shape and size of the 'window' is always the shape and size of the display itself.

The only thing I see in the screenshots that can be frequently found on iPad is the sidebar (in the login screen), but it is not used in the way it usually appears (as a navigation controller with detailed view of the selected content next to it) and besides sidebars have been common in Mac OS long before iOS even publicly existed.

 

[leman]

Quick question. Can anyone with an iPad tell me, would the size and shape of that window be the sort of thing that's expected on an iPad? Ignoring the title bar, of course.

As hamis92 points out, the Mavericks one is slightly more iPad-y, but that resemblance is only on the surface (again, due to the sidebar). If I were to design app like that on the iPad, I would put the text fields in the center, for better access.

I can't readily see the common features, but the Mavericks one at least informs the user at a glance what it's about.

I think that they are both quite functional and the Mavericks one certainly is more 'compact' (doing a lot with a single window), but personally, I think that the Yosemite's one does a better job delivering the message. It delivers the message more clearly and is not as cluttered. In that regards, its more consistent with classical Apple's installer design (sequence of clear, informative steps, one thing at a time).

Usually, would say that having a sequence of step like this impairs usability — except — when we are talking about installers or configurators. If its something important that you usually do only once, discrete steps are often helpful and give you a sense of progression.

 

[dmj102]

Quick injection here...a few days ago I put the FaceTime app on my dock and I swear, that green can glow in the dark. It is so bright.

 

[hamis92]

I think that they are both quite functional and the Mavericks one certainly is more 'compact' (doing a lot with a single window), but personally, I think that the Yosemite's one does a better job delivering the message. It delivers the message more clearly and is not as cluttered. In that regards, its more consistent with classical Apple's installer design (sequence of clear, informative steps, one thing at a time).

Both of the screenshots are definitely from Mavericks. I think the one with blue/turquoise is just from an older version of Feedback Assistant. Obviously I do get which one you were referring to as which (Mavericks/Yosemite).

 

[leman]

Both of the screenshots are definitely from Mavericks. I think the one with blue/turquoise is just from an older version of Feedback Assistant. Obviously I do get which one you were referring to as which (Mavericks/Yosemite).

Sorry, my silly mistake! I was sure that one is from Mavericks and another is from Yosemite because I remember the Yosemite's FA look something like that. But I never really used it — not on public beta, so hence the confusion.

 

[TheBSDGuy]

It actually did level off. The initial rate for Yosemite was very fast. If you drew a line from the base of the graph to about the middle of the break point, it would be about 45 degrees. That period ends at about Oct. 24. Between Oct. 24 and Nov. 22 the rate is about 10 degrees and usage increases from approximately 20% to 30%. After that, it looks, on the average, pretty flat to me. It's too early to tell, but if the Yosemite adoption curve starts going down, which I would think is unlikely, it would indicate that Yosemite is a flop, IMHO.

Actually, it didn't. You just caught a temporary lull. It appears to be continuing to grow at about the same rate.

I've noticed the following observations:

1. Some people aren't aware of the GUI changes.
2. They seem much worse when using large external displays.

I actually talked to an individual that was amazed that I could tell they were using Yosemite just by looking at it. They didn't even notice the flatness or the change in the dock or the change in the icons at all. Remarkable, quite remarkable.

When looking at Yosemite on small displays, particularly on laptops, the UI doesn't look as bad as it does on my large external display.

This makes me wonder how well this was tested on various displays. There are obviously some people that don't even notice any changes, and others, like most of us on this thread, that do. Could it be that a large display is exemplifying a possible quality control problem? Is it possible that Apple is either considering users of large displays as irrelevant, inconsequential, or not worth bothering to cater to any longer, or perhaps it's oversight when trying to rush out a product with limited testing?

I ran Yosemite from a 2009 MacBook and it's appearance showed the same types of characteristics as one would see on a unit equipped with a Retina display. IMHO they both exhibited similar characteristics (i.e. looks better on small displays) so I don't think resolution is the problem. I have to wonder if large displays don't have a tendency to bring out the cartoonishness of the UI.

Interesting also is the the App Store rating is now down to 2.5 starts and the 1 star ratings outweigh the 5 star ratings by roughly a 3:2 factor.

…and yet the conversion continues.

The day I figure out how the human race thinks and processes things, I'll be sure to let everyone know.

 

[grahamperrin]

Feedback and guesses

Why the openness of the OS X Beta Program did not result in a more widely-pleasing release of OS X 10.10

Please note that some of the following points are, necessarily, guesswork:

1. for the transition from iOS 6.x to iOS 7, there was no widespread (public beta) feedback from customers; nothing like the 'Feedback Assistant for iOS' visualised (imagined) above
2. iOS 7 was released
3. some customers disliked or hated the looks of iOS 7
4. eventually, most of those customers treated the looks as great, good or OK
5. most customers who continued to dislike or hate the looks were not adversely affected
6. Apple looked to the future with a positive assumption that extreme changes to the looks of OS X would be followed by a similar growth in appreciation; that adverse effects would not significantly change customer attitudes towards Apple and Apple products
7. early concepts for the user interfaces to OS X Yosemite – before the first seeded pre-release (Developer Preview 1) – did not generate/gain appropriate feedback
8. pre-release development of conceptual interfaces proceeded, with the positive assumption (the educated guess) that the end results would be OK
9. participants in the OS X Beta Program were predominantly pro-Apple, with too few (or too small a percentage of) testers prepared to disagree with concepts in a way that might dissuade Apple from proceeding with the most contentious aspects of the interfaces
10. beyond the OS X Beta Program, public comments on the looks of the pre-release were mostly favourable
11. of the pre-release feedback that disagreed with Apple's concepts, some was deferred indefinitely, with the assumption (the simple guess) that adverse effects would have not too negative an effect on customer attitudes in the days/weeks/months following release
12. OS X 10.10 was released
13. public attitudes towards the looks of the release were, are, worse than could have been predicted from public comments about the pre-release.

With attention to a key point from earlier –

… a big picture that can (must) be painted with respect for all concerned. …

– I invite people who dislike, or hate, the looks of Yosemite to consider the list above as a most charitable explanation for things being as they are.

It will be easy to criticise, add to and/or dissect the list and its content, but the list is, essentially, a way of looking at things that might help to move things forward without offending or sidelining any individual or group within Apple.

(If anyone is offended by what's above – if my guesses are wildly inaccurate – I apologise.)

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Intelligently compiled list. #