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ZVH

macrumors 6502
Apr 14, 2012
381
51
Why the openness of the OS X Beta Program did not result in a more widely-pleasing release of OS X 10.10


Please note that some of the following points are, necessarily, guesswork:
  1. for the transition from iOS 6.x to iOS 7, there was no widespread (public beta) feedback from customers; nothing like the 'Feedback Assistant for iOS' visualised (imagined) above
  2. iOS 7 was released
  3. some customers disliked or hated the looks of iOS 7
  4. eventually, most of those customers treated the looks as great, good or OK
  5. most customers who continued to dislike or hate the looks were not adversely affected
  6. Apple looked to the future with a positive assumption that extreme changes to the looks of OS X would be followed by a similar growth in appreciation; that adverse effects would not significantly change customer attitudes towards Apple and Apple products
  7. early concepts for the user interfaces to OS X Yosemite – before the first seeded pre-release (Developer Preview 1) – did not generate/gain appropriate feedback
  8. pre-release development of conceptual interfaces proceeded, with the positive assumption (the educated guess) that the end results would be OK
  9. participants in the OS X Beta Program were predominantly pro-Apple, with too few (or too small a percentage of) testers prepared to disagree with concepts in a way that might dissuade Apple from proceeding with the most contentious aspects of the interfaces
  10. beyond the OS X Beta Program, public comments on the looks of the pre-release were mostly favourable
  11. of the pre-release feedback that disagreed with Apple's concepts, some was deferred indefinitely, with the assumption (the simple guess) that adverse effects would have not too negative an effect on customer attitudes in the days/weeks/months following release
  12. OS X 10.10 was released
  13. public attitudes towards the looks of the release were, are, worse than could have been predicted from public comments about the pre-release.

The following have been reported, probably many times in this thread:

  1. A CNET user rating yielded 1.5 out of 5 stars for iOS7. The Yosemite fans have balked at this citing CNET as an unreliable source, hence it can be dismissed, but it was USER ratings, not a CNET review that got the 1.5 stars.
  2. iOS 7 apparently set a record "reverse migrations," meaning people that installed iOS 7 and then replaced it with iOS 6 while it was still possible.
  3. Apple sales have gone up anyway. However, iPad sales with iOS 7 have dropped.
  4. Translucency raised complaints when first introduced in Leopard.

People don't use the iPhone the way they use a computer. The iPhone display is so small most apps are running full screen all the time with the UI only being exposed intermittently. iPhone sales are tied to contracts and it's often the contract, not even the phone or the UI that determines whether someone is going to get an iPhone.

The iPad, which has more screen turf, tends to expose more of the UI, and after the release of iOS 7, sales dropped.

My opinion is that Apple mistook iPhone sales as a stamp of approval for the antics we now see with Yosemite. However, the evidence to raise doubts regarding how well it was liked or disliked was there, if they looked for them.

Hopefully they'll "get it."
 

Cubytus

macrumors 65816
Mar 2, 2007
1,437
22
The following have been reported, probably many times in this thread:

  1. A CNET user rating yielded 1.5 out of 5 stars for iOS7. The Yosemite fans have balked at this citing CNET as an unreliable source, hence it can be dismissed, but it was USER ratings, not a CNET review that got the 1.5 stars.
  2. iOS 7 apparently set a record "reverse migrations," meaning people that installed iOS 7 and then replaced it with iOS 6 while it was still possible.
  3. Apple sales have gone up anyway. However, iPad sales with iOS 7 have dropped.
  4. Translucency raised complaints when first introduced in Leopard.
How could they manage to reinstall iOS 6?? I don't know anyone who installed iOS7 not regretting the move.
The iPad, which has more screen turf, tends to expose more of the UI, and after the release of iOS 7, sales dropped.
What about competition from increasingly capable tablets?

Hopefully they'll "get it."
Don't lose hope! They reverted the iPod Shuffle design when they saw the buttonless model wasn't as popular as previous generations.
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
Midweek mini-roundup

… Yosemite was widely available as public beta long time before the release. …

Whilst I went on a bit of a rampage, I suspect that most beta testers were far more cautious about discussing any aspect of the pre-release software in public.

… Non-professional reviews can be surprisingly enlightening and from what I have seen, the majority of comments may be not favourable. More on this … maybe tomorrow. …

… its visuals are praised by overwhelming majority of both professional and private reviewers.

A few weeks ago (some time in November) I spent a long time – many hours over a few days – going back through Twitter with various search terms, back to include tweets during the months when pre-releases were being tested. I now know that Twitter offers advanced search syntax that would have made the task less arduous, but I don't regret the work because ploughing through so much, in a concentrated way, left me with a strong impression that public comments on the looks of the pre-release were mostly favourable (point 10 above). I can't treat it as qualitative analysis, but I did get that impression.

That exercise, and others, with Twitter also gave me the impression that the majority of post-release tweets about the looks of Yosemite – some of which are posted by professionals – are not favourable.

A fraction of what I bookmarked http://tinyurl.com/1010uglystick might have been posted to Twitter by bots of some sort but I'm not beating myself up about that. There's plenty to be ridiculed/disliked/hated and if a bot can perform the ridicule, then I sort of admire whoever wrote the bot. (Note that I was not careless. Some of the Twitter accounts did appear odd and if I suspected that a bot was at work, I refrained from bookmarking. I blocked and reported a few accounts as a result of the exercises.)

This thread might give you a different idea, but then again, it has stayed active because of dedicated activity of two-three very passionate users. …

My most passionate expression – my worst rant ever, online – was in a different topic, about Mavericks.

… I came to Apple after years of putting up with the stuff Windows and PC's produced with their constant tweaking and changes. Have those who have written of their frustration forgotten their experiences with other systems? …

Not forgotten. Part of every working day for me is spent supporting an environment where the vast majority of managed computers run Windows 7.

Having Mavericks, in the midst of that Windows environment, is a pleasure that's near-essential. If someone forced me to use Windows instead of Mavericks – as well as support other people's uses of Windows – I would seek a different job. It has been suggested to me that I might try greater use of Yosemite (instead of Mavericks?) for maybe six months … it's a reasonable suggestion but honestly, I have tested Yosemite often enough (I'm testing it now) to know that it's intolerable. Things are in the wrong place and moreover, it makes my head hurt; it's too bright. There's simply too much wrong about it … charitable thoughts (the list above, for example) disappear. Thankfully at work I'll use Mavericks with this notebook.

… Yosemite is the first significant paintjob that OS X has received within the single OS iteration, so its going to be polarising. …

Apple could have, should have, allowed users to prefer a different appearance. Whether we like it or not, the word 'theme' will be used by some customers.

Frankly, it's almost inexcusable. There's money within the company, there was obviously an appreciation of Mavericks, and there were maybe thirty years of experience of development (including user-oriented preferences) so I can not find it difficult to excuse the exclusive, divisive, polarising end result.

The marketing slogan – 'Completely New. Completely Mac.' – should not have been an excuse to ignore things that were previously known to be very, very, very good for Mac users.

… the sense of comfortable state of domination and ability to influence …

Apple's ability to influence third parties was an essential part of my rant a few weeks ago. I'll attempt to justify that rant, that ongoing passion, in this topic before the end of this week.

I strongly suspect that some of the QA advice is ignored by management at some level. That's not necessarily a failing of that level of management …

I can now finish that sentence. Charitably: I might treat that failing as limited if there were reasonably educated guesses at that level of management.

… I doubt that QA people are to blame …

Charitably: I assume that reasonably educated guesses at some level of management caused those managers to defer advice from QA people.

…no lack of testing. …

I assume that there were thousands of public beta testers, but (for some combination of reasons) the appearance-related feedback did not have the required effect.

Three rushed points before I go to work:
… For example, a good beta tester does more than file a report that says "Contacts crashes." You'll instead want to explain exactly what you were doing when you saw that crash. If the steps are reproducible, even better …

At the time of wishing to give feedback, I found it terribly difficult to describe most appearance problems.

… The one-armed man? :D …

Obscure connection: the thought of an iPad in one hand reminded me to include the images of iPad and Feedback Assistant when writing about the transition to iOS 7.
 
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Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
ok, so based on the number of replies between this and the other one I'm going back to Mavericks ..

See you on the "other" side :D
 

joedec

macrumors 6502
Jul 25, 2014
443
51
Cupertino

Cubytus

macrumors 65816
Mar 2, 2007
1,437
22
Don't forget Chromebook:Google's Chromebooks Overtake Apple's iPads for First Time in U.S. Education Market
Some sort of Chrome/Android merger might pose a real threat to OS X, not that GOOGLE would ever try to upset Apple's ecosystem or anything.
These numbers are heavily skewed because the consumer didn't make a choice. These are state funds, not individual purchases.

One other impact, for those of us who've chosen not to update, plans of buying a new Mac get put off also. I don't want a new machine with 10.10 that I have no idea if I can install 10.9 on it.
If they have the same hardware revision (e.g. MacBookPro9,2), they usually can take the previous OS. That was the case with my late-2011 MBP.
 

Partron22

macrumors 68030
Apr 13, 2011
2,655
808
Yes
These numbers are heavily skewed because....
So unscew them for us.
As far as I can tell, purchases are purchases, even when made by public school systems.
In fact purchase by public schools may be more important than individual purchases, as down the road, kids might tend to buy products that they already know how to use.
Apple lost the desktop OS war once before, with new competition out there, they can do it again.
To win, they'll need an OS that runs well and looks good. Some of us think they've failed to deliver with Yosemite.
 

Cubytus

macrumors 65816
Mar 2, 2007
1,437
22
So unscew them for us.
As far as I can tell, purchases are purchases, even when made by public school systems.
In fact purchase by public schools may be more important than individual purchases, as down the road, kids might tend to buy products that they already know how to use.
Apple lost the desktop OS war once before, with new competition out there, they can do it again.
To win, they'll need an OS that runs well and looks good. Some of us think they've failed to deliver with Yosemite.
I won't make a dissertation on the concept of "choice" vs. "adoption", because it's what it's all about. Just as I always doubted Window's adoption rates, buyers of non-Mac machines just happen to need a new machine, and they didn't want that machine to be a Mac. So they got Windows by default. This is the whole, ongoing problem with "tied sales". These machines should be sold naked so the user can choose what OS he wants installed. Even if numbers stay almost identical, choice would be possible.
 

Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
This is a long standing issue, not only with Yosemite, but its now worse..

Apple still cant get widgets centered can they :-

One would have thought this would be the most essayist thing to do. Apparently not.

Also affects when Dashboard is not a space.

Widgets still move on Mavericks too, but at least their still centered
 

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MacRobert10

macrumors 6502
Nov 24, 2012
287
46
I noticed something peculiar about Yosemite. If you run an application that was built for Mavericks or earlier OS X versions, the text in the button is often not centered. If I recall it looks like it's skewed off center by maybe a pixel or two up and I think to the right. I don't think it's present on all. I'm figuring it's an artifact from trying to convert the old font to the new, but honest to God, it looks like it was done by a pre-teen.
 

ZVH

macrumors 6502
Apr 14, 2012
381
51
How could they manage to reinstall iOS 6?? I don't know anyone who installed iOS7 not regretting the move.
What about competition from increasingly capable tablets?

Don't lose hope! They reverted the iPod Shuffle design when they saw the buttonless model wasn't as popular as previous generations.

When iOS7 first came out there was a period of time when you could still uninstall it and put iOS 6 back on. Once the window closed, that was it.

Unfortunately, I "bit" on the Jonathan Ive video on Apple telling me how wonderful iOS 7 was and I installed it without seeing any reviews, but I did it after the window closed allowing me to revert back to iOS 6. I now use my iPhone for about 10% of what I used if for when it had iOS 6 on it. I used to use it for all sorts of stuff. Now I play Solitaire on it, and that's about it. I CANNOT STAND the glaring white everywhere.
 

ilandmac

macrumors member
Mar 25, 2012
90
4
Remote island
So the only thing that matters in owning, using a using mac in 2014 is 10.10's UI changes? Give me a break! Not to mention Yosemite is very much "MacOS X" like any previous version. This thread is getting more amusing each day :rolleyes: I guess I have no business in this discussion anymore.

Right you are, having no bizz in this discussion...

Yosemite is piss poor and certainly not "like any previous version" :mad:

iland mac
 

heymadmat

macrumors newbie
Mar 18, 2012
20
0
Melbourne
What Mac do you have? I was pleasantly surprised how well Yosemite ran on my rMBP (I expected an iOS 7-like slowdown), but I can only imagine that all the graphical elements would tax older graphic cards unnecessarily.

I'm using it on my 2012 Mac Pro and 2013 rMBP
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,530
19,708
I noticed something peculiar about Yosemite. If you run an application that was built for Mavericks or earlier OS X versions, the text in the button is often not centered. If I recall it looks like it's skewed off center by maybe a pixel or two up and I think to the right. I don't think it's present on all. I'm figuring it's an artifact from trying to convert the old font to the new, but honest to God, it looks like it was done by a pre-teen.

As the new font has different metrics, making sure that text still fits on UI of apps designed pre-Yosemite is far from a trivial problem. Apple has a quite detailed video about this actually on their developer portal. I think they did an excellent job so far, haven't experienced a single application where this would be an issue. Then again, I certainly do not examine my apps with a magnifying glass :p
 

drbroom

macrumors member
Jan 12, 2007
45
16
I've been an Apple developer since almost the beginning (1985) of the Mac; in fact have been using Apple's since my jr. high school best friend and I got the Apple 1 kit and built it, so this is very hard for me. I mean I even still have my 128k Mac in my basement. SO what ever you do DO NOT CALL ME A TROLL!!! I AM NOT!

My point is this; the iMac I am currently writing this post in, the one I purchased at the beginning of the year may vary well be my last! If Yosemite "Sam" is the new focus of Apple moving forward... well for me it's time to find a new OS.

Since we lost Steve (in fact since he got sick) Apple software and hardware has been going down hill. It really became public with iOS 7 and Lion but has continued at a rapid rate and "Sam" it just the latest and worst example.

There was a time when the OS developers at Apple always paid attention to their core... those of us who have been using (bleeding in 6 colors) Apple products. They took note of giants like Don Norman ("The design of Everyday Things") and Bruce "TOG" Tognazzini ("The Human Interface Guidelines") for user testing and human centered design. Ideas like 'keep what people know and change only gradually so they can learn why what you offer is better.' was the norm not the exception.

Maybe I am just too old to understand now... Maybe this is the way it is now suppose to be. We users are no longer allowed to have control over our systems. We are not suppose to be creative or "Think Different".

We are here to conform and march in lock step to what the man on the screen screams at us.

I for one will not! If need be (at least for now will stay with Mavericks) on my work machine (I do have a laptop with "Sam" on it and I hate it). If that means I will not be able to upgrade to a new versions of 'xyz' app. I will have to be ok with that. Like I said... I am old now and stuck in my ways, I like full control over my systems.

I will just add this one last thought, Apple, if you are reading this PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE>>> STOP THE MADNESS!!!
 

F1Mac

macrumors 65816
Feb 26, 2014
1,284
1,604
Maybe I am just too old to understand now... Maybe this is the way it is now suppose to be. We users are no longer allowed to have control over our systems. We are not suppose to be creative or "Think Different".

When exactly did we "have control over our systems"? Back when there was no cloud? Back when 56k modems were cool? Back when type 11 errors made us believe we didn't have total control over the system? The internet has become what it is today, computing has evolved to what it is today, for better or worse. This is not OS X's fault.

And please be more specific, what do you NOT control in Yosemite?

For the record, I'm NOT trolling either, but if we are to "discuss" in this thread, then sharing opinions about Yosemite should be allowed right? instead of hammering that the OS is terrible. I certainly understand that people dislike it, there are indeed a few things that I dislike about 10.10 as well. I just think sometimes it gets totally blown out of proportion. I've been using macs for 20 years, and changing the system font, flat windows, folder colors/shapes, translucency is supposed to make me switch to another platform? Seriously? I'll reiterate that these changes might be divisive, but the applications I make my living with are perfectly fine, the Earth is still spinning and OS X is still OS X.
 

Ulenspiegel

macrumors 68040
Nov 8, 2014
3,212
2,491
Land of Flanders and Elsewhere
...Earth is still spinning and OS X is still OS X.

And life goes on after death. (But it matters how).

I've been an Apple developer since almost the beginning (1985) of the Mac; in fact have been using Apple's since my jr. high school best friend and I got the Apple 1 kit and built it, so this is very hard for me. I mean I even still have my 128k Mac in my basement. SO what ever you do DO NOT CALL ME A TROLL!!! I AM NOT!

My point is this; the iMac I am currently writing this post in, the one I purchased at the beginning of the year may vary well be my last! If Yosemite "Sam" is the new focus of Apple moving forward... well for me it's time to find a new OS.

Since we lost Steve (in fact since he got sick) Apple software and hardware has been going down hill. It really became public with iOS 7 and Lion but has continued at a rapid rate and "Sam" it just the latest and worst example.

There was a time when the OS developers at Apple always paid attention to their core... those of us who have been using (bleeding in 6 colors) Apple products. They took note of giants like Don Norman ("The design of Everyday Things") and Bruce "TOG" Tognazzini ("The Human Interface Guidelines") for user testing and human centered design. Ideas like 'keep what people know and change only gradually so they can learn why what you offer is better.' was the norm not the exception.

Maybe I am just too old to understand now... Maybe this is the way it is now suppose to be. We users are no longer allowed to have control over our systems. We are not suppose to be creative or "Think Different".

We are here to conform and march in lock step to what the man on the screen screams at us.

I for one will not! If need be (at least for now will stay with Mavericks) on my work machine (I do have a laptop with "Sam" on it and I hate it). If that means I will not be able to upgrade to a new versions of 'xyz' app. I will have to be ok with that. Like I said... I am old now and stuck in my ways, I like full control over my systems.

I will just add this one last thought, Apple, if you are reading this PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE>>> STOP THE MADNESS!!!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It was thought-provoking.
 

Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
Cache issue

found an awful cache issue..

Not really a "bug", (well maybe), but its icons look ugly as hell when you remove all contents of your the ~/Cache in your home folder.

On Mavericks they do stay....

What can i say, I just like to point out these things :D
 

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joedec

macrumors 6502
Jul 25, 2014
443
51
Cupertino
When exactly did we "have control over our systems"? Back when there was no cloud? Back when 56k modems were cool? Back when type 11 errors made us believe we didn't have total control over the system? The internet has become what it is today, computing has evolved to what it is today, for better or worse. This is not OS X's fault.

And please be more specific, what do you NOT control in Yosemite?

For the record, I'm NOT trolling either, but if we are to "discuss" in this thread, then sharing opinions about Yosemite should be allowed right? instead of hammering that the OS is terrible. I certainly understand that people dislike it, there are indeed a few things that I dislike about 10.10 as well. I just think sometimes it gets totally blown out of proportion. I've been using macs for 20 years, and changing the system font, flat windows, folder colors/shapes, translucency is supposed to make me switch to another platform? Seriously? I'll reiterate that these changes might be divisive, but the applications I make my living with are perfectly fine, the Earth is still spinning and OS X is still OS X.

I'll be the first to beat up on the quality and changes in design, however... you do have a point. The Mac running Yosemite is still way better than the alternative. I am running the Windows Technical Preview on the side and its pretty rough.

The comparisons of Yosemite to Windows I don't understand at all, they aren't even close. The Mac is still a Mac, even dressed in pastel.
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
How Bad UX Killed Jenny

Food for thought:

How Bad UX Killed Jenny

"Being a designer who is very passionate about what I do, this hurt. In all honesty, I don't think I've ever felt this emotional about any bad design I’ve encountered. I feel angry and sick when I look at that interface above. I start to think about the other stories that have been shared: like an ebola patient being sent home accidently, a pilot accidently plotting the wrong course killing crew and passengers, and so many other stories like them. I even think about my poor in-laws who are 60+ trying to navigate the government sites to pay for their ticket, or find information about government services for their son.

We can’t stand by while people’s lives, health, & rights suffer because of bad design.

There are some real, very serious UX problems out there for us to tackle. For now I don't know exactly how to change it, but here are some practical steps …"​

Think

There's a Disclaimer of Warranties in Apple's Software Licence Agreement for the operating system but I urge people to think, seriously think beyond the OS. At least, think of the direct and indirect influences, on third party software, that occur as a result of Apple's design choices. Think of the mash, the reduced legibility, the insufficient contrast, the lack of distinction between windows …

----

… I honestly wonder what you think those endless posts you write about various aspects of OS X Yosemite will achieve …

Amongst other things: raised awareness and greater understanding.

… I guess I have no business in this discussion anymore.

Morpheo, I'm glad that you're still here.

… My most passionate expression – my worst rant ever, online – was in a different topic, about Mavericks. …

Here's that rant. I would have struck through the worst of it sooner, but shortly after I ranted about the terrible interface, I stumbled across the article about bad interfaces causing deaths.

Yes, I'm passionate.
 

OldGuyTom

macrumors regular
Original poster
Sep 6, 2013
156
33
US
Here are some things I've noticed:

1. In spite of terrible user reviews in the App Store, growth continues, as does regret.

2. Unlike other OS versions, major press outlets seem to have shied away from talking about Yosemite. If I recall just weeks after every other release of OS X was out, there were usually a lot of write ups about the new OS and its features. I don't see these with Yosemite. There were lots of write ups before it came out, but not so many after. Could it be that publishers don't want to be associated with it? Would you want to be responsible for influencing a person's change to something that's much, much worse?

3. Now that it's out, I don't see the high praise continuing from many of those that touted it's great new flat look.

Just my observations, not facts.


FYI: This has been posted before, but if you want to complain to Apple about Yosemite, here's the link:

https://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html
 

435713

macrumors 6502a
May 19, 2010
834
153
Here are some things I've noticed:

1. In spite of terrible user reviews in the App Store, growth continues, as does regret.

2. Unlike other OS versions, major press outlets seem to have shied away from talking about Yosemite. If I recall just weeks after every other release of OS X was out, there were usually a lot of write ups about the new OS and its features. I don't see these with Yosemite. There were lots of write ups before it came out, but not so many after. Could it be that publishers don't want to be associated with it? Would you want to be responsible for influencing a person's change to something that's much, much worse?

3. Now that it's out, I don't see the high praise continuing from many of those that touted it's great new flat look.

Just my observations, not facts.


FYI: This has been posted before, but if you want to complain to Apple about Yosemite, here's the link:

https://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

Good observations. I think they will tweak the design a bit by 10.11. Maybe even an update soon would be nice. I am hoping for a classic theme in all honesty. If I get the old radio buttons back and the darker gray toolbars, that would go a long way for me personally.
 
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