im just saying if you are going to throw them out instead of adding to thr landfill give it to me so i can repair them and give them away to actually be used
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You really don't need a brand-new Mac...
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Reminds me of a guy at my work who lectures people buying new devices but blows up hundreds of dollars every week eating out and drinking. I usually get a new phone 6-7 years, use my macs 8 years and AW 5. But I am happy for those who upgrade when they want to, what ever that makes them happy.
It’s not exaggerating, when it deviates into preaching. I agree with OP on being aware of ways to extend life of Macs. But why some one does or doesn’t is a philosophical conversation, that can include what is really needed to live.
This has happened more than once in this particular subforum and a few times in the PowerPC Mac subforum (which many members of this subforum also frequent. Before the 'new posts' feed it was the Forum Spy.
There is somewhat of an overlap between the Early Intel Mac forums and the rest of the Mac forums which does not make things immediately apparent just by reading the thread/posts. It's happened often enough that unless it's really obvious a poster has no clue, I don't personally bring it up.
When it happens in the PowerPC Mac subforum, it's a little different.
Exactly my point, don’t preach what people need or don’t. Unless it is about the vital needs. Outside of those, it’s a choice.
I'm just going to speak to this in a different way. I will start by saying I agree with you. What people buy is their choice.
How then to explain the many users on MacRumors who either buy based solely on what they 'need' or denigrate others for not being 'fiscally responsible' for buying more than they 'need'?
For example, any time I purchase an iPhone I always get the maximum capacity that Apple offers and typically the largest model they offer. I have an iPhone 5 64GB, a 6+ 128GB, a 6s+ 128GB and my current 11 Pro Max 512GB.
I don't 'need' that extra capacity. I just want it, because it's my money and my choice. Yet sooner or later, someone will point out that I wasted my money, bought more than I actually needed (as if they decide that for me) or was generally irresponsibile. I tell them I bought it on monthly payments with my carrier and they go ballistic!
Plenty of users in the iPhone subforum posting about the agonizing decision they face on getting only the iPhone that they need. Yet we have many Mac users in MR that happily upgrade to what they 'want'.
It's just strange. If I bought only what I ever needed and not what I want, I'd never own anything I actually wanted.
On the one hand, we knew this was coming. From the beginning Steve Jobs never saw the Mac as a user-serviceable system. He saw it as an appliance: Something like a toaster, a microwave...or your smartphone. You use it, and it gets out of your way and lets you get your work done. And if it breaks, or gets old and crusty, you junk it and get a new one. On the other hand, we can't ignore the immense toll that eWaste is taking on the planet. How many perfectly useable Macs have gotten needlessly trashed just because all they needed was a new hard drive, or a cable change, or even just an OS reinstall?
In part, this is why I'm now encouraging people to buy from a trusted local refurbisher (there are a couple of established small businesses that specialized in used Macs in my city), or get an Apple refurb. I for one will cling to my 2017 MacBook Air (got it as an Apple refurb in 2019!), as it was one of the last machines Apple made before the T1 chip and everything got ruthlessly glued down.
And while I absolutely love the idea of products like the Framework laptop, I just wish they were more affordable and more accessible for the masses.
I played around with the later macOS' on my old machines, but found Catalina as a comfort spot for me, as running it even unsupported has very little to no caveats. None of the machines I own are newer than 2012, with my Mini being the newest, and I don't currently plan on picking up anything newer Apple anytime soon, if ever again (my iPhone 14 being the exception, and it's mainly for work purposes. Plus, I was a dummy when I traded in my Samsung for a newer phone and just said, "Give me whatever, as long as it's an iPhone". Of course, they gave me the Pro Max). My 2008 Blackbook (soon to have a 2009 mainboard in it) runs Debian 12, and I installed that as a test base on whether it would fit into my workflow, and it does very nicely. The Brave browser connects to iCloud just fine, and I can do my work and transfer it via iCloud (which is only used for work) to my 2017 iPad and iPhone. My daily driver 2010 13" MBP will eventually run Debian, once Catalina falls too far out of the app supported window. I'll replace my iPad with an easily-rooted Android tablet (or Linux, if a decent one ever comes along) once that falls out as well, and will most likely adjust my workflow to use something other than iCloud for work purposes.
Granted, I'm not a "normal" user and have no qualms about tweaking my machines for optimal operation, or adjusting my workflow as needed. Normal users generally won't do that, nor would they want to.
Granted, I'm not a "normal" user and have no qualms about tweaking my machines for optimal operation, or adjusting my workflow as needed. Normal users generally won't do that, nor would they want to.
Huh. I wasn’t aware a Mercedes-Benz, BMW, or Polestar, as they age, metamorphoses into a Ford Pinto or Yugo.
And it’s true: choose to live and work in a place where you don’t need a car, and you won’t need a car. Choose to get a car anyway in those circumstances, and the car isn’t a need in the slightest, but rather a thing you wanted (which is fine, but it’s probably good to make and show some self-awareness with that distinction).
A 2012 MacBook would not be my first choice, after ten years it seems to me hardware failure is all too likely. Not all parts can be replaced anymore or cheaply.
My M1 Air was a good deal second hand and since it is still being sold the value has held up extremely well over the past year compared to what I have been used to. So far, I woud say it was a good deal, great value.
I do however agree that if anything breaks it will be next to impossible to repair and I would loose a good chunk of money. Fair point, but a risk I am willing to take.
Computing power may be more than I need, but in five years it will still hold up fine.
My M1 Air was a good deal second hand and since it is still being sold the value has held up extremely well over the past year compared to what I have been used to. So far, I woud say it was a good deal, great value.
I do however agree that if anything breaks it will be next to impossible to repair and I would loose a good chunk of money. Fair point, but a risk I am willing to take.
Computing power may be more than I need, but in five years it will still hold up fine.
It is unfortunate that Apple has gone with the entire system-on-a-chip route ... making repairs and upgrades pretty much nonexistent now. Unfortunately, other Windows laptop manufacturers are starting to do the same with soldered on parts. These are Apple trends that I wish other companies would stop following.
For older devices, I actually use an insurance company called AKKO: https://getakko.com/
They will pay up to 2 grand for repairs and it's gotten me out of otherwise unaffordable situations.
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That insurance sounds like a good service.
Apple has historically always made it difficult to acces or buy components. The shrinking and combining of the systems may just be an inevitable progression in tech for efficiency purposes. It is basically up to Apple to keep repairs possible which it does now for at least 7 years.
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I wouldn't use an old Intel laptop anymore, because of how hot and noisy they get after doing anything. I watch a lot of Youtube, so trying to load up 5+ Youtube videos at 1080p would be enough to bring a 2012 MBP to its knees. Besides, now that I have a retina M2 Air, I would never want to go back to a non-Retina display. It's not just a nice to have, it's a game changer.
The speakers are way better on new Macs.
The weight is much lighter on new Macs.
The connectivity of ports is faster.
There are conveniences like TouchID and an actually decent webcam.
Also, don't forget that old Macbooks shipped with HDDs. How lame! Do you think a normal user knows how to upgrade parts like that. Almost every listing I see for old laptops are in their stock config.
Could I get by on a 2012 MacBook Pro? Sure. But after 10 years or so of enjoying that, times have changed. Some day, it's time to move on.
The only part I do regret is lack of backwards compatibility. But truly, 95% of people, even power users, will never worry about some compatibility problem, for real work. There's no giant software industry that's in chaos right now because people can't run a 32 bit app on modern MacOS.
The speakers are way better on new Macs.
The weight is much lighter on new Macs.
The connectivity of ports is faster.
There are conveniences like TouchID and an actually decent webcam.
Also, don't forget that old Macbooks shipped with HDDs. How lame! Do you think a normal user knows how to upgrade parts like that. Almost every listing I see for old laptops are in their stock config.
Could I get by on a 2012 MacBook Pro? Sure. But after 10 years or so of enjoying that, times have changed. Some day, it's time to move on.
The only part I do regret is lack of backwards compatibility. But truly, 95% of people, even power users, will never worry about some compatibility problem, for real work. There's no giant software industry that's in chaos right now because people can't run a 32 bit app on modern MacOS.
You don’t need mercedes, BMW, Polestar. Pinto and Yugo take you from point A to point B.
I'm guessing these statements are just specific to laptops?
I'm typing this on a 2009 MacPro 4,1 (5,1) and this Mac and my two 2009 Mac Minis (Late and Early 2009) are my youngest Macs. I do have a 2008 MBP on Catalina, although it's used much less than my MP and my Mac Minis.
The MacPro has 32GB ram, 16TB of internal storage (3 HDDs and 1 SSD) and two video cards driving six displays. A seventh display is attached via a DisplayLink USB adapter. I can do everything I want/need and this Mac is three years younger than the 2012 example you guys are citing.
There is a 2022 M2 laptop in the house, but I don't own it (work Mac). So far, aside from using it for work I am not impressed at all with it. It has speed, but I find Ventura to be a hot mess. And I had to overcome Apple's limitation of only one external display for 13" MBPs using a DisplayLink hub. That allows my two 30" Cinema Displays to be connected to it. That took a month to figure out.
It took weeks to figure out how to get Ventura to stop trying to update the file cache for network volumes. It's an obscure thing to begin with but prevents Finder from doing anything inside a open or save dialogue box until it's updated the file list of the folder it's in. So you get to enjoy waiting 20 seconds to 1 minute before you can open, save or rename a file. My job is designing golf scorecards and yardage books. Most golf courses are 18 holes, so waiting a minute to save a Photoshop file can take up to 18 minutes off your life when doing 18 holes.
And I still haven't figured out why Photoshop likes to open files on a network share and then just sit there with a beachball before it lets you do anything to those files. Once things get going, it's all fine and great and the M2 chip has seriously sped things up compared to the old work Mac (2015 MBP).
But I am not impressed with this M2 so far.
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Yes.
I wouldn't try to argue that a 4,1 or 5,1 Mac Pro is unusable today, or even better than an M1/M2 desktop for 99% of uses. Who cares about power consumption on a desktop, except for energy bills. But the laptops are insane. I use an M2 Air at work, plugged into a dock with an external display. I would never know it's a laptop based on how performant it is. It's dead silent and handles everything I throw at it masterfully.
As for Ventura, I'm deliberately not using it. My M2 Air supports Monterey, so I downgraded when I bought it this year.
The rest of your complaints though are genuine, but in a discussion aimed at the casual user, I can't see how any of those could be common problems that would force a random guy to buy a 4,1 Mac Pro rather than something M2.
I prefer Monterey myself. Ventura is alright I suppose, but it seems buggier and a little less snappy to me. Monterey was a mess when it was first released, but they really seem to have ironed out a lot of the issues since. It is very well polished today.
Thanks for the reply @eyoungren.
I was curious to learn about your experiences because for me, Catalina has been a mixed bag. It's the default macOS version on my 2010 C2D MBA and the overall performance is great - effortlessly surpassing that of Snow Leopard in an unexpected aspect and this is on a machine that Apple never even intended it to run. The snag is that Catalina fails to suspend the session to disk when the MBA's battery approaches depletion. I speculated that it could be something related to its unsupported status but I'm experiencing similar problems on my 13" 2012 MBP - which points towards a power-management bug of some sort.
It’s true! I ride a 1970s touring bike in a major city, where it’s easy to get from A to B on two, nuclear-free, needs-no-oil, acoustic motorbike wheels.
In fact, I just got home from a ride clear across town, and it was productive (even if there were a few drivers who were staring down at screens and not paying mind to the moving road before and around them).By the same token, I think that the vehicular analogy applied originally suggested the use of an obsoleted Mac model was tantamount, in 2023, to relying on a Ford Pinto or a Yugo from four or five decades ago. That wouldn’t be the case. Rather, an obsoleted early Intel Mac — say, a unibody MacBook Pro — would be like buying a well-built automotive model from at least two of those manufacturers (as Polestar is a bit too new for the analogy to apply).
Basically, to pick up a 2010 MacBook Pro, vis-à-vis, a 1999 Mercedes-Benz estate (wagon): how well it was maintained by previous owners during the interstitial years ought to hint at how reliable it will function going forward.
The comparison between older cars and older computers isn't exactly the best analogy. Cars have changed a lot over the years, with improvements in safety, fuel efficiency, and performance. Computers, on the other hand, have seen big advancements in processing power, storage, and software. Comparing an old car to an old computer doesn't really take any of this into consideration and they both serve completely different functions and purposes.It’s true! I ride a 1970s touring bike in a major city, where it’s easy to get from A to B on two, nuclear-free, needs-no-oil, acoustic motorbike wheels.
By the same token, I think that the vehicular analogy applied originally suggested the use of an obsoleted Mac model was tantamount, in 2023, to relying on a Ford Pinto or a Yugo from four or five decades ago. That wouldn’t be the case. Rather, an obsoleted early Intel Mac — say, a unibody MacBook Pro — would be like buying a well-built automotive model from at least two of those manufacturers (as Polestar is a bit too new for the analogy to apply).
Basically, to pick up a 2010 MacBook Pro, vis-à-vis, a 1999 Mercedes-Benz estate (wagon): how well it was maintained by previous owners during the interstitial years ought to hint at how reliable it will function going forward.
The way older cars and older computers work is different. While an old car can still be used for transportation (which is its singular purpose), and if well maintained, will continue to do that simple task for decades. An old computer may struggle with new software and tasks. Modern computers need more power and capabilities to run complex programs and handle large amounts of data. So, comparing a well-maintained 2010 MacBook Pro to a 1999 Mercedes-Benz doesn't consider the limitations of older computers for today's needs.
Computers become outdated much faster than cars. New software, operating systems, and hardware requirements come out regularly, making older computers incompatible with the latest technology. Manufacturers (i.e. Apple) also stop providing support and updates for older models, which affects performance and security, whereas on older cars, especially something as popular as a Mercedes, there's no shortage of parts to replace on the car. Comparing the reliability of a well-maintained computer to a well-maintained car ignores the fact that computer technology becomes outdated quickly, leading to lower performance and compatibility.
I see where you're coming from, but the analogy falls short in several areas. The rapid advancement of technology, differences in functionality, and the speed of obsolescence (or planned obsolescence in Apple's case) make computers very different from cars. It's important to understand that relying on older computers, even if well-maintained, may not offer the same reliability and functionality as newer models. Cars can keep going forever as their sole purpose is simply to get you from point A to point B.
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I don’t disagree, but it was another post by another person, responding to the first post, a couple of pages back who raised the Ford Pinto/Yugo analogy.
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