You really don't need a brand-new Mac...

[sdfox7]

For the most part OP I agree with you, however also need to consider the support life of MacOS that the machine is running, Apple usually does a good job at securing and patching older versions of MacOS however as those OS's age Apple will not be so keen on taking the time and resources away to patch these older versions.

Microsoft had to release certain out of band updates to Windows XP/Vista and 7 to correct a security flaw but it's not guaranteed in the future that they would do it again when the next big intrusion or flaw hits.

Also need to consider the software that runs on top of the OS, Google may cut support to Chrome versions on older MacOS instances thereby making the user go out and finding some other browser that will be supported, same thing for email clients (if used).

Especially now in todays environment people need to make their technology last as long as possible since cost of everything is going up.. but if a user does online banking on their machine or anything to do with finances.. I for one would want to make sure I'm using a device that at least my browser is supported with the latest updates.. if I use a personal financial software like quicken.. I'd like to make sure my OS is patched or still within the wheel house of Apple deploying security updates.

Google drops support for operating systems once they are no longer supported by the vendor. There is a direct correlation between OS support and Google Chrome support.

Google didn't drop Windows XP Chrome support until April 2016, nearly 15 years after Windows XP was released. Similarly, Chrome support for Windows 7 did not end until January 2023, the same month Windows 7 extended support expired, and nearly 15 years after Windows 7's 2009 release.

On the flip side, Google Chrome on MacOS/OS X is not supported for nearly as long. High Sierra 10.13 is only 6 years old and support has already ended.

Since Chrome is the most popular browser, the lack of support and the persistent infobar (every time you open the browser) stating you will not receive updates forces many people to just get a new machine.

So, if Apple provided OS support for 10+ years like Microsoft does, software would continue to be supported, computers would not become "obsolete" as quickly, and it would keep more machines out of landfills.

Sunsetting support for Windows 7 / 8/8.1 and Windows Server 2012 and 2012 R2 in early 2023​

Firefox users on Windows 7, 8 and 8.1 moving to Extended Support Release​

 

[Allen_Wentz]

You know, Apple itself is the main culprit to blame here.
They are responsible for the obsolescence of their hardware in a programmed and avoidable way, or actually in more ways than one.
Soldered RAM and SSD was plenty avoidable but they still did it, and they also influenced the rest of the industry to follow their example.
Discontinuing security updates, on the other hand, is their signature behavior in the industry, and it's even more unacceptable.
Windows 10 can be installed and slimmed down on any PC under 20 years of age and you can still think of ways to repurpose them in a pinch, by running current software, while with Mac OS you're in an insecure environment if your Mac stops at Catalina and this year Big Sur will be dropped as well.

Apple just educated their Mac customers to trash perfectly good hardware after a number of years, and that's sad because many of those computers (MBP/As mostly) were the benchmark in the industry when they first came out.

Nonsense. This is tech and tech evolves. Tech from a decade ago does not perform anything like tech today. Suggesting old tech does the job just fine while (not just Apple) hardware, OS, apps and user expectations have been evolving is simply wrong.

 

[avz]

Nonsense. This is tech and tech evolves. Tech from a decade ago does not perform anything like tech today. Suggesting old tech does the job just fine while (not just Apple) hardware, OS, apps and user expectations have been evolving is simply wrong.

While the tech evolves there are not many true "game changers". Core 2 Duo was one of those big game changers that still allows users to use their machines for most basic computer stuff. And this is the point of this thread. Apple Silicon is another true "game changer" but anything in between is just "incremental" at best or just a smart marketing in order to keep the cash register working.

 

[gpat]

Nonsense. This is tech and tech evolves. Tech from a decade ago does not perform anything like tech today. Suggesting old tech does the job just fine while (not just Apple) hardware, OS, apps and user expectations have been evolving is simply wrong.

Yes, tech evolves, but there is no reason for old hardware to be cut out from security updates.

I still have one Macbook Air 2013 at home, I've been through maybe 7 or 8 laptops in the last 10 years (woah that's a lot in retrospective) but always kept the old MBA2013 because I liked how it behaved, it did its job as a replacement computer for my relatives for casual tasks or for the occasional couch browsing task.

10 years later it won't receive security patches anymore for no reason, and so I can't feel safe keeping it around for the casual home banking or social media task.

Or guess what, if I put Windows LTSC on it it will still be up to date until 2032, just like it would if it was a Core Duo from 2006. If I put Linux on it... probably until 2050 at least 🤣

 

[DCBassman]

Or guess what, if I put Windows LTSC on it it will still be up to date until 2032, just like it would if it was a Core Duo from 2006. If I put Linux on it... probably until 2050 at least 🤣

This. If you MUST have a Mac, and it MUST have MacOS fully up to date at all times, then you are trapped and MUST spend your money. If it's the actual machinery you like, and you're willing to adapt a bit, then THAT is the point of this thread. You get to keep using your favourite toys for as long as possible. Simples.

 

[B S Magnet]

Ya kinda do cus they often die. The graphics card in my 2010 imac fried. My parents 2013 imac just had a hard drive crash this spring. I tried to boot it off an external but it would only stay on for 15 mins before resetting itself for some reason… so i sold that for almost $200 broken..

Notwithstanding your professional needs in particular (which are legit and a separate discussion), the above anecdata, particularly so the 2013 iMac (which many, including my own, shipped with spinning rust clocking in at a decade old), fall within a realm of ownership responsibility in maintaining internals — whether cleaning out, upgrading memory, applying fresh thermal paste, and/or upgrading storage. Overheating, especially for a decade-old system, is more liable to happen over time without a good cleaning out. This means doing a weekend afternoon of maintenance when one wants to maintain what they have already.

Maybe I missed the memo, but the consumption model of aggressive planned obsolescence by Apple suggests an ownership (or, more fittingly, a custodianship) model whereby periodica maintenance is never to happen. Instead, throw it out and buy new. This unregulated approach is not helping with slowing materials life cycle analysis.

The GPU of your 2010 iMac, meanwhile, is not one of maintenance insomuch as corporate negligence between Apple and (if I recall for that specific model) AMD badly dropping the ball and, worse, neither assuming responsibility to produce and replace a revised GPU chip, with owneship repair at no cost to the consumer, without the fatal flaw of the version plaguing these systems. That can still emerge with a current model, except these days the culpability and responsibility would, by nature of the SoC design, fall upon Apple.

Unfortunately, Apple users have observed Apple punting on responsibility when there are chronic flaws/failures in their products, as all the ‘gates (screen, flex, butterfly, GPU, etc.) can attest.

 

[B S Magnet]

This. If you MUST have a Mac, and it MUST have MacOS fully up to date at all times, then you are trapped and MUST spend your money. If it's the actual machinery you like, and you're willing to adapt a bit, then THAT is the point of this thread. You get to keep using your favourite toys for as long as possible. Simples.

Or, you can use the OCLP patch to maintain a currently supported OS for your system, allowing yourself to buy a few more years before buying a replacement.

 

[DCBassman]

Or, you can use the OCLP patch to maintain a currently supported OS for your system, allowing yourself to buy a few more years before buying a replacement.

Indeed, IF it can realistically cope with it, and IF the punter has the will/knowledge to be bothered. The so-called average user just won't. The Early Intel Macs thread is pretty far from a bunch of average users, that's for sure!

 

[B S Magnet]

Indeed, IF it can realistically cope with it, and IF the punter has the will/knowledge to be bothered. The so-called average user just won't. The Early Intel Macs thread is pretty far from a bunch of average users, that's for sure!

I would like to believe the everyday user who arrives to the EIM forum from a DDG or Google search and finds a bunch of threads/discussions along the lines of questions they may be having, along with patient replies by folks who use this forum regularly, might encourage more folks to consider maintaining what they already have than they might in the absence of an EIM forum’s existence.

Any time someone who comes here and is able to do something successfully they thought they couldn’t do originally, that makes me happy and makes it all the worthwhile.

 

[iHorseHead]

I used my MacBook Early 2008 for 2 years as my main machine and MacBook Pro mid 2010 for 10 years and then I eventually upgraded to MacBook Air M1 (2020).
With my MacBook Pro mid 2010 I managed to do games, coding etc. It got especially painful around 2017 when I had to export a Unity game and it took me roughly ~48 hours to export it and during that time I could not use my computer. I've noticed that it's still fine if you want to surf the web, read emails, create documents though. Just slow.

 

[DCBassman]

I would like to believe the everyday user who arrives to the EIM forum from a DDG or Google search and finds a bunch of threads/discussions along the lines of questions they may be having, along with patient replies by folks who use this forum regularly, might encourage more folks to consider maintaining what they already have than they might in the absence of an EIM forum’s existence.

Any time someone who comes here and is able to do something successfully they thought they couldn’t do originally, that makes me happy and makes it all the worthwhile.

I could not agree more. But Mr Average Punter will simply not get here in the first place, he'll toss the old MacBook with one hand while handing over his credit card with the other. Almost every piece of IT kit in front of me is used or even discarded. The only things I buy new are SSDs and RAM sticks, and sometimes not even those. This and other things absolutely mark us here as far from average in this context. And I dare say this is as difficult for some of us here to understand as it is the Mr Averages to understand us! To them, we are irredeemable nerds/geeks/whatever. To us, they are simply clueless, in this context.

 

[Shasterball]

I basically buy a new computer when the old one stops getting OS/security updates.

 

[IG88]

You don't need 16GB of RAM for that either

I had a base M1 Air and it was swapping to the SSD just using Safari. I don't keep 100s of tabs open, probably no more than 20.
Too much swap for my tastes.

 

[dandeco]

Generally I've bought a bunch of used/refurbished Macs, especially since my job is often wiping and refurbishing older Macs and iPads for resell (or recycle if they're broken in some way). First such Mac I bought was an eMac G4 in late 2009 and it quickly became my main desktop, even when I still had an HP Pavilion laptop at the time (soon its' motherboard died in spring 2010). Then in summer 2011 I bought a 2009 polycarbonate MacBook and that soon became my main computer, since it had an Intel Core 2 Duo system and an NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics chip (for a computer I'd regularly use, I didn't want to deal with the wimpy Intel GMA chip on the 2006-09 polycarbonate MacBooks). In early 2016 I bought a 2012 2.3 GHz quad-core i7 Mac Mini from a used electronics shop because I wanted to have an actual Intel Mac desktop, and I wasn't a fan of the current Mini lineup and its' only having dual-core processors and non-replaceable RAM. It even came with the RAM already maxed out to 16 GB, and it cost me $500, and was worth every penny. And the timing was also impeccable, since Mac OS 10.12 Sierra released later that year wouldn't work on the polycarbonate MacBook but it would on the Mini. In late summer 2017 the MacBook's screen began failing, so I ended up replacing it with a late 2009 unibody polycarbonate MacBook I got cheap because it didn't come with a charger cable or built-in hard drive, so I could have a laptop to use at my college campus when going for my current I.T. degree. I upgraded the RAM to 8 GB and put a 256 GB SSD in it, and it served my needs, but eventually when it was announced Mac OS 11 wouldn't work on my 2012 Mini, I figured I should save up with my then-new computer tech job and buy my first Mac new in the box, and I chose to get a laptop because my polycarbonate MacBook was even older. Initially I wanted to get a higher-end 13" Intel MacBook Pro and wait a while into the Apple Silicon transition to get a Mac Mini with such a chip, but in early spring 2021 I figured I may as well take the plunge and get an M1 MacBook Air, with third-party app support for Apple Silicon Macs rising and the Air's lower price point and its' performance being roughly equivalent to a multicore i7 but generating less heat, along with its' lower price point, and I couldn't be happier! I bought the 8-core graphics model with 512 GB SSD and even configured the order with 16 GB of RAM, since I do a lot of digital media work and I do multitask with several Chrome tabs open. I still remember how blown away I was at how the M1 Air renders video projects in just a third of the time it'd take my 2012 i7 Mini to render a similar project, no matter the editing software.

I still have a nifty collection of older operational Intel and even PowerPC Macs, but that's because I've taken up collecting them as a hobby. Also they are useful for running certain older applications. Sometime early next year I also plan to buy an M2 Pro-equipped Mac Mini to use as my main desktop (configured with 32 GB of RAM and a 1 TB SSD, to take my computing to the next level), while that 2012 quad-core i7 Mini will remain part of my collection of older operational Macs.

 

[B S Magnet]

I had a base M1 Air and it was swapping to the SSD just using Safari. I don't keep 100s of tabs open, probably no more than 20.
Too much swap for my tastes.

This speaks much more to the OS overhead and to the browser used than to the hardware — unless you also bought a base unit with 8GB of onboard RAM. The browser, in absence of pre-emptive blocking of all ads and tracking, consumes significant resources.

Turning to another browser (Firefox or Chromium), applying add-ons like uBlock Origin, and setting up an ad-blocking hosts file on either your wifi router and/or your Mac, will go a long way toward demanding much less VM swap from your SSD.

 

[DCBassman]

I basically buy a new computer when the old one stops getting OS/security updates.

...and this is the problem, Apple dictates your purchase cycle, by artificially accelerating it for no actual reason.

 

[B S Magnet]

...and this is the problem, Apple dictates your purchase cycle, by artificially accelerating it for no actual reason.

:cough: Craig :cough: Federighi :sniffle:

 

[DCBassman]

:cough: Craig :cough: Federighi :sniffle:

You lost me there, I'm afraid!

 

[Regulus67]

I do not see a problem with people upgrading, and buying the latest and greatest. If that is what makes them happy.

This boils down to, How do you manage your life, and economy?

I used to build my own PCs. Because I was fascinated with the hardware. And ran linux to learn how it operated.
I went over the top, when I purchased a s2882, Tyan Thunder K8S. That I ordered from USA.
It had PCI-X slots, which I was sure was the future 😆
I had to build the PC using credit, because of it's high total cost. And by the time I had paid of the loan, that was not the future. As PCI-E became the standard for graphics.

I have learned my lesson.
All my cars are old, end of late 90s. And one Audi A8 2002, (because they have all aluminium bodies).
I paid as much as the car had lost every single year in depreciation. So to me that is a no-brainer.
I buy most apple items when I think the price is good, for what I am getting.

There was no way I could justify buying the iMac Pro, or the Mac Pro 2019, from Apple.
But today I have both
I am happy somebody purchased them from Apple, paying top money. Then selling them at a rather big loss, to buy the latest and greatest from Apple.
Most people want the latest tech, so no-one tries to buy the older top tech. Which lets me pick it up at a big discount.

If you decide to go this route as well. I wish you the best, and have fun, enjoying some really good tech!

 

[B S Magnet]

You lost me there, I'm afraid!

The annual major version cycle of OS X/macOS is the brainchild of Craig Federighi (i.e., the photogenic salt-n-pepper guy with the dark caterpillar eyebrows seen in many of Apple’s keynotes).

Federighi took over Bertrand Serlet’s role as SVP of software engineering in 2011. (Serlet was the captain behind the development of Tiger, Leopard, and Snow Leopard). Federighi’s influence was immediate, starting with his (late entry into leading) development of Lion, onward.

Lion not only was a complete re-engingeering of the operating system as a business model (and in how it closed out more of the open source software community, further making other components of the OS more hands-off as firmware updates locked down hardware), but it also marked when major software versions moved to a once-yearly cycle still in place today, as orchestrated by… Craig Federighi.

While I know some folks gripe reflexively about Tim Cook-this or even Jony Ive-that, my grivance with Apple for these last dozen years is, principally, in Federighi’s responsibility for (and piloting of) accelerating a cycle of planned obsolescence by at least double (when factoring the averaged lifespans of Tiger, Leopard, and Snow Leopard — all being much more complex operating environments which had to accommodate more architectures (four, in the case of Leopard) and 32- and 64-bit processors, and all being given time for major issues to be worked out before moving on to the next major version).

Periodically, I estimate where we would be with macOS versions in present day, had Federighi not come in and created this synthetic, once-per-annum major version cycle. Instead of discussing macOS 12.4 Sonoma right now, we would probably be discussing an upcoming macOS 10.13 High Sierra as the latest version as, averaged, each version between Lion and that hypothetical High Sierra would have had ~24 months to mature and stabilize.

Of course, between that and Moore’s Law’s slowdown, consumers would also be keeping their systems longer, “hurting” the Apple investor quarterly statement. Federighi’s approach has assured this won’t be happening as long as Apple sticks to this once-per-annum pattern.

 

[IG88]

This speaks much more to the OS overhead and to the browser used than to the hardware — unless you also bought a base unit with 8GB of onboard RAM.

Base M1 Air....meaning 256GB SSD, 8GB RAM. The base config.

My original reply was to your claim that people don't need 16 GB of RAM under light use....with your caveat that people should download an optimized browser.

If the default base amount of RAM isn't enough to avoid swapping under light use with the default web browser, then Apple needs to increase the default amount of RAM or improve their web browser.

Shouldn't be my problem to solve by using a 3rd party browser.

 

[MRMSFC]

My issue with the discussion around “planned obsolescence” is that tech does become obsolete, and sometimes faster or slower than expected.

Take for example, a 2009 dell laptop my grandma has kept around. RAM is maxed out (at 4 gigs), battery’s been replaced twice, and it’s barely usable. It has all replaceable parts but it’s plainly at the end of its useful life.

Now she uses a 2013 MacBook Air base model. And for what she does it still works, nothing replaced. And it’s not the most reparable machine.

Both lasted their useful lives a little less than ten years. So I’m skeptical if how long one can truly design a machine to last, vs expecting the usable life to be about a decade or so.

 

[B S Magnet]

Base M1 Air....meaning 256GB SSD, 8GB RAM. The base config.

Gotcha.

The challenge with the M-series Silicon models is the GPU and CPU are using the same RAM, so in practice a base M1 (or any M-series) configured with 8GB RAM is probably running at times with as little as 6GB for the CPU side, putting a lot of pressure on that memory in the process.

Still, the earlier suggestion of ad blockers like uBlock Origin at all levels (and, lest I forget, a DNS server you might explore trying out sometime under your Network settings — 76.76.2.2 is an excellent one to begin with) will relieve a lot of that memory pressure, since your system won’t be loading all that superfluous, disruptive guff in the first place.

For fun, you ought to try the lightweight, Mozilla-based browser SeaLion by MR forum’s own wicknix.

 

[ToniCH]

Base M1 Air....meaning 256GB SSD, 8GB RAM. The base config.

My original reply was to your claim that people don't need 16 GB of RAM under light use....with your caveat that people should download an optimized browser.

If the default base amount of RAM isn't enough to avoid swapping under light use with the default web browser, then Apple needs to increase the default amount of RAM or improve their web browser.

Shouldn't be my problem to solve by using a 3rd party browser.

My aim is to never use swap. It was no problem when we were still running spinners, now with SSD:s it is. SSD-drives have set amount you can write to it before it goes bad. If your computer uses swap it is constantly writing and reading that SSD. Therefore the due date can and will arrive way quicker than expected. That is why I have 16-32GB in most of my machines. My old MBAs have less and cMPs have more per the nature of these machines.

When Apple started to solder the SSD drives to the motherboard and deliver machines with only 8 or max 16GB RAM with ever more bloated OS's and other software they knew that the SSD's wont last as long as before as they are constantly used as swap. And as they cannot be easily replaced the machines need to be replaced instead. Additionally this means the M1-Mx machines will have no resale value after few years as they will have SSD-drives which are close to end of life. And that point also the whole computer is scrap. Good money grab plan though... 🙄 🤮

 

[unrigestered]

My aim is to never use swap. It was no problem when we were still running spinners, now with SSD:s it is. SSD-drives have set amount you can write to it before it goes bad.

newsflash: mechanical drives have finite life and go bad after x-amount of use too!

personally, i'm not even sure if a typical HDD will outlive an SSD when used as your long term daily drivers.
i think i'd actually trust a "good" SSD more than a HDD for this.