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1Password migrants thread
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Nah. There surely are several areas where subscription models make sense. Password managers per example, or anti malware products. You want them always up-to-date with new threats and security levels. This I understand.
I didn't mind 1Password going subscription.
BUT:
In other areas subscription software isn't sustainable. Let's take Ulysses. It is a beautiful but simple text editor. The backlash was big, the app still has a 3.x rating everywhere. How many "features" can you pack into a markdown editor to justify subs?
The same with Fantastical. It is a freaking iCal frontend. Yea, it looks nice and all but how many people left it since they changed to subs? As soon as they run out of ideas people will ask themselves: "Is it really worth 100 bucks in two years?
Look how big the backlash for Agilebits is. Lots of bad publicity. And small devs are thriving. It's a never ending cycle. Company starts small, gets bigger, gets money by investors, original devs loose their voices on the board, money becomes the most important thing, company drives against the wall, alternatives thrive.
Yes, you are right, the subscription model is a new way for devs to pay their bills and keep up with updates and all. But the competition isn't sleeping.
Yeah so 1PW is a dead end if you insist on a private vault.
You should give Strongbox and KeepassXC (for your Windows PC) a try. Keepass is the mother of private vaults.
I downloaded Zetetic Codebook, imported database from 1P and was going through logins checking all was OK. Went to delete a duplicate from Codebook and somehow deleted the whole Logins category. Can't see a way to get it back, except to start all over again.
Emailed their helpdesk. Really should have some form of verify before deletion on something like that IMHO.
Emailed their helpdesk. Really should have some form of verify before deletion on something like that IMHO.
What service would you use as a Dropbox substitute? Note, I’ve been using Dropbox since I started with 1PW. The vault is encrypted, so maybe I need to locate one of your Dropbox objection posts, to understand the issue.
A user here reported that For TOTP on CodeBook you have to adjust each one manually. he had only 4 (you have 400 accounts !?) .
Why don't you use EnPass its near 1:1 1PW alternative. It imports 1PW, has license, wifi sync, local vault, TOTP, no electron , everything...
For cloud storage there is sync.com and Tresorit which I didn't double check on, but I personally trust proton which has protondrive which is still in beta i think.
Why are they tempting me to switch to subscription so much so dropping 50% of the price? I thought all their user base are super happy with subscription and paying full price. Its their customer's favorite choice! isn't it? hmmmm....
This is why I do not go with small time developers, small user base apps, or developers that don't make the app their flagship work. You get getting annoyances like this and you can hardly find someone only that answers your questions. I stay with the herd.
You're mistaken, it is the future, fight all you want, many if not most commercial applications has or will embrace the subscription model.
That's probably not the example you want to use for FOSS successes, because I don't believe you can call 1.87% a success
View attachment 1903161
Yes, there will be always be open source alternatives and that's not a bad thing, but for non-FOSS, commercial applications which will always have larger market share then open source - subscriptions is a reality.
No, You are wrong.
FOSS community today have Debian, Arch, Manjaro, Mint, for OS. They have apps like Blender, GIMP, Krita, LibreOffice, Audactiy, VLC, FireFox, InkSpace, Signal, OpenShot.
Is the marketshare small? Yes. Does it matter? No. Is the userbase small? Something with 200K+ user base can't be described as small. Thats 200 thousand people.
Have they listened to you back in 1996 to give up because the future is proprietary and subscription based apps, they would be using Windows, Adobe CC, and texting over Facebook's Whatsapp and paying a monthly bill.
developers need to make an app subscription based because they need to "pay" bills is the biggest lied told in computer history and people drank the capitalist's Kool Aid. Its more like they need to make an app subscription to thin you wallet even more and fatten their wallets even more.
Up until 2010 near no app was subscription based. Thats near 40 years of computer history. Not only was it sustainable but the license model thrived and made multi-millions if not billion corporates like Adobe, McAfee, Valve, Intuit, Norton, Microsoft, AGILEBITS... list goes on.
Once everyone had their CC connected to their online account and had a constant everywhere internet connection, suddenly software was no longer sustainable and poor programmer got to eat 40 years later.
Even antivirus apps got updated probably daily and they were making millions and their stocks rising with a big grin on their faces with the licenses model. If the licenses model is not sustainable , please explain to me how is it that many vendors still choose it as their ONLY business model like Affinity, iStat Menus, DaisyDisk, PixelMator, DiskWarrior to name a few.
Not in Agilebits case. In this case the founders themselves are defending the subscription model. This is the capitalist system. It takes maximum benefit for the owners, and just enough for the customer to convince him to give away his money.
Greed...kills IMO
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I don't know why constant growth is taken as a must. Why not just keep the team small? Keep the app simple? Everyone is happy. No. It's never enough. Bigger bigger bigger. Better better better. How much bigger and better can a simple password manager be?
I admire people who still just use Terminal for most of their stuff. They don't care about this.
Yes... This is so true. According to their reasons devs must have died like flies in the early 90s because of starvation.
IMHO subscription is ok when the added value is there. And with value I don't mean overloading the app with features. It is definitively not there when in the OS integrated stuffs works better in some ways.
But let's see it positive, lots of people are fed up with Agilebits and they will loose a lot of customers. And alternatives will thrive.
Who says everyone is happy? What if Steve Jobs just stayed in a garage making computers, how well have that have gone? Is it wrong for a company to grow? No. The company I work for is growing, I’m glad it is. This usually means (not always) the company is more stability and it keep our customers happy. I also hope to get a new position in the company because of this too. Positions that weren’t there before because the company was so small.
The company I work for is getting more customers, so we need more employees to keep up. We are also coming up with new and more products to help our customer, that none of them know yet and probably won’t for a while until we are ready to show them off. Who says 1Password isn’t doing this? We don’t know. We know Apple is always coming up with ideas, and probably why we are all on a site called MacRumors.
1Password has an enterprise version also for companies. Should have 1Password just kept making this for us people only and not for companies? Why? Can they guarantee their employees they will always have us as customers with all the competition out there? I could be wrong, but I don’t know of any big companies who use LibreOffice (something that is free) or anything like that. You need a lot of employees to keep other companies happy if you have other big companies as your customers. When I 1st started where I work, we didn’t need a overnight or weekend shift, now we do. We need to keep up with the demand of our customers, who need to keep up with the demand of their customers.
I don’t get why people get mad because other people want to make money and grow. If I make an app, I will change for it. I want to make money. I actually own a business with my wife and my friend. We would love to grow so we can quit our regular day jobs. I seriously don’t get why people get mad that others charge money for their work and for growing? Why not? If you want to make something and give it out for free, cool. I bet these people have other ways of making money to live also. If a company chargers too much, like 1Password is for the single subscription, the market will show them eventually that was a bad move. Or I can be wrong and it won’t.
Where I use to work a few years ago, they grew and added new business 5 years ago. I don’t work there anymore, but they lost the contract to one of the older sides of the company. What kept them going was what they started 5 years ago, this is why companies grow, it creates back up. If they didn’t do that 5 years ago, the company doors would be shut, and people out of work.
Just because something is open source doesn’t mean it’s better. Look at the Heartbleed Bug, no one caught issues for a while with Transport Layer Security, because no one was looking at it. It’s used by a lot of big companies, you think someone should have checked the code on this one. Open source is nice, but it’s useless if no one checks the code. Just because it’s open source, is everyone looking for issues? Nope.
The open source and free password managers are not user friendly. One of the reasons why I don’t use one. To try to explain to my 70+ mom how to use that would be a nightmare. At least the pay open source ones are user friendly.
Times charge, security is a lot harder too to keep up with now then it was 10-20 years ago. Remember 15 years ago passwords weren‘t like they are now? I remember passwords not even being case sensitive for websites. Now, you make an app/product, you have everyone testing it, trying to break it, trying to hack it, and trying to make you look bad. This is 100% true for any password manager. Any company that makes a password manager has to be 100% on their game, zero room for error.
In the 90’s when I bought anti-virus, it only lasted a year. Then I have to go to the store, buy a disk again, and update it to use it. No difference than what 1Password and others are doing with yearly subscriptions, except I don’t have to go to a store to buy it. Again, times has change. If a company doesn’t change with the times, they will die, look at Toys R Us (I know, they are trying to make a comeback). It’s interesting why they went under, look it up. Long story short, they had Amazon handle all of their online store/sales. There were other issues why they went under, but mainly not changing with the times.
You are 100% correct, the companies need to add values for subscriptions. In a way, this can be good. Companies need to come up with new features if they want to keep us, because we are going to be more picky with things if we have to pay like this. You can always see whats being done to 1Password here: https://app-updates.agilebits.com/
I see your points, and I am always looking at other products out there to see if they are better than what I have now. I’m not thrilled about them going Electron for their app, but I also don’t need to use it also. I can just use the browser extension without it. Not all Electron apps are bad, I use some, and some are on this list: 23 Best Electron Apps. Maybe the 1Password app will end up on this list someday ?. Will 1Password lose customers? Time will tell. As of now, I’m not leaving, I have no reason too. I hope they don’t go under, I really don’t want to transfer mine and all of my family to a new password manager. I also don’t think “a lot” of people are fed up with them. The people complaining here are a small fraction I bet (on line in general because people use online to complain). Also, look at all the people on here who complain about Apple and yet still buy their products. again, I’m not 100% happy with 1Password, but it’s not even close for me to go somewhere else. I do like Codebook, but no Linux version. Hopefully that will change, I like that one.
I need coffee now, this was too long of a response.
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I don’t understand what a time based one time password is? Granted I’ve not looked it up beside being handed a link.
Are all of my average site logins considered time based one time passwords? i use them repeatedly so that is why I ask. If I truly have to tweak each password before it works, how is it tweaked? Is it fixing the url it is associated with? I’m hoping someone has the patience to explain, before I try it and see for myself.
It’s 2 factor authentication (2FA/time bases one time passwords/TOTP) or 2 step authentication (usually texts sent to you). 2FA/TOTP is usually an app that will give you a 6 digit code that changes every 30 seconds (Some are 8 and some are 20 seconds). 2 step authentication is usually a text/sms. So you long in with you password, then you need to get the 2 code from an app (TOTP).I don’t understand what a time based one time password is? Granted I’ve not looked it up beside being handed a link.
How Time-based One-Time Passwords work and why you should use them in your app.
By Prakash Sharma With the increase in cyber security threats, it has become more and more necessary to upgrade the security standards of your web applications. You need to make sure your users’ accounts are safe. Nowadays, a lot of online web applic...
Thanks! While 2FA exists in some of my accounts, by way of texts to my phone, none of the passwords in any of my password manager logins work like this. The 2FA is set up with the account seperate from the password itself. Is TOTP available in any password manager as a feature?It’s 2 factor authentication (2FA/time bases one time passwords/TOTP) or 2 step authentication (usually texts sent to you). 2FA/TOTP is usually an app that will give you a 6 digit code that changes every 30 seconds (Some are 8 and some are 20 seconds). 2 step authentication is usually a text/sms. So you long in with you password, then you need to get the 2 code from an app (TOTP).
How Time-based One-Time Passwords work and why you should use them in your app.
By Prakash Sharma With the increase in cyber security threats, it has become more and more necessary to upgrade the security standards of your web applications. You need to make sure your users’ accounts are safe. Nowadays, a lot of online web applic...www.freecodecamp.org
Yes, most good password managers have the ability to record (and enter into website forms) your TOTP code.
Such Password managers use an inbuilt TOTP generator. Sometimes this is capability is referred to, somewhat confusingly, as MFA by password manager companies (see note1 below).
My personal choice: Strongbox (for macOS / iOS only) and (if you need cross platform) Safeincloud (for PC, Andriod, mac and ios) - these support TOTP generation and entry. Just check the features list of the password manager your interested in using.
Note 1: MFA also called two-factor authentication or 2FA is the practice of requiring additional authentication factors beyond the standard username so MFA includes using a code sent to you, typically by SMS (which aint that secure given it can be thwarted by sim swapping). One type of MFA uses TOTP. Time-based One-time Password (TOTP) is a computer algorithm that generates a one-time password (OTP) that uses the current time as a source of uniqueness. Some people like to use an entirely separate authentication application such as Google Authenticator, Microsoft Authenticator.
I am confused by you, you clearly mentioned "Time Based One Time Password" that you will be importing to Codebook with 400 passwords from 1PW. I said EnPass can handle TOTP (Time Based One Time Password).
This is because capitalism and greed. The idea is to never have enough. The idea is that the stock HAS to keep going up. Its not satisfactory for them for the stock to be $300 today and $300 in 5 years. Its not satisfactory to make a billion dollars in profit today and a billion profit in 5 years. It has to go up. A reason for this is because those who bought the share at $100 want to sell at $200, those who bought at $200 want to sell at $300 and so on. When you own the share you are literally the boss of the company so you do stuff to make your stock grow even more in price so you sell your share to the next guy who bought to make it even grow more to make his profit too. Capitalism death spiral.
Apple reached $2T in value and Cook says "We are just getting started"!!
Its too funny that there is one guy that making a multi-platform password manager(SafeinCloud) and sell at lifetime price of $4 meanwhile Agilebits has to rent it at $3/m because developer got to eat. You know why? because the numbers checks out.
If 1 million people buy his app he will make $4 Million dollars. If 10 Million people buy his app (0.01% of active iphone users) he will make $40 million!!
It was even worse in the 90s! The world was smaller by 2 billion people (2 billion less customers) hardly any one had a computer in comparison, and if you wanted to sell you had to package and print your product and distribute it to stores for the customers to come to the store and does money exchange.
Today a Japanese developer can have his software sold to a guy in Timbuktu via a weblink and paid via PayPal at near zero cost of extra unit printed, shipping, or computer store cut on the price.
There is a video where Steve Jobs talks about the user base of apps to be successful(i think) and he laughed saying one developer was doing just fine selling software exclusively for NextOS!!!
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No one is mad because someone is trying to make money. We are mad because of unethical and monopolistic business behaviour. Imagine this:-
The 1st McDonald branch opens. You go to buy the Big Mac and its $3 and the founders are thrilled with their success. 1 month later and the Big Mac is $5. You ask why they tell you "Well, our BM is very popular and everyone wants it. demand and supply." 2 years later you go there the big Mac is $10, you ask why they tell you well we destroyed all our competition we are the only fast food in town and that one other guy. 1 year later you go in and you are willing to pay $10 for that $3 Big Mac (3x original price) and they tell you thats not possible now its $15 because you have to buy it in a Meal we no longer serve single burgers. ITS THE SAME $3 BURGER!! Its just pure capitalist greed.
What I think @johnkree is trying to say is that they are trying to squeeze the customer as much as possible for even EXTRA financial gain. Out of pure greed. If they grew organically by saying offering a VPN service, or they started to manufacture a smartphone like the Google Pixel no one is going to be upset. No one is upset with Apple because they started to sell ipods, then ipads, then started a movie streaming service, then an online store, then earphones. No one is bycotting Apple because of that. But if Apple gives away Safari for free, then says its $20 now, then say its not sustainable has to be $5/m , two years later they say our costs rised its $10 now well guess what? I will not use Safari any more.
Have Agilebits released a new service like cloud syncing and said this is a service so it has ongoing cost so it will cost $3/m . Our standard license still exist for people who feel safer to store their vaults locally no one would be upset. I think they released cloud sync in 2016 or so, I remained with them even though they tried hard to hide the license option. I even bout the IP7 upgrade. But to strip away a feature i want (local vault) force me to store my passwords on your computer, force me to pay a monthly bill, give me even a worse app (electron) well I am sorry this is a WORSE app and service than it was 10 years ago.
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You are right about FOSS software. Not everything is good, but when the software is FOSS you are more likely to spot a flaw than closed software that only small number of developers get to look at it
Not all foss is good, some are horrible. For me that is KeePassCX . I will pay 1password just not to use that thing. But other ones are even better than closed source. IMO Firefox as a browser is superior to Safari. At least its multiplatform and has wide range of plugins.
The important thing here is to keep competition alive, and push for FOSS when possible that way we do not have to be slaves to a specific company and create our own monster. Look at video online, Google with YouTube rules the world with this service. Look at FB and instagram and Twitter, they literally can kill your business if they decided to kick you off the platform. Want a smartphone? You are going to abide with Google rules or Apple rules, pick your poison. Its the same thing with Comcast in USA, everyone hates that company but they keep subscribing because they don't have much other option!
I didn't want to criticize growth itself. It is something good. Or it should be. But I'm 40 years old now and I have seen lots of companies shutting their doors. Good companies with good projects. The thing is: Growth is a good thing, but constant growth just for the single purpose of growing is not. If a company gets bigger because there is more demand, there is new stuff they are selling, yay, that's great. But when the only reason for growing is to farm cash for themselves and investors... I don't like to be a part of that.
I don't get mad because people want to make money. Not at all. I get mad when a company starts out, looking for new customers, being just awesome. I can't find another word for Agilebits in its early days. They were just nice.
And suddenly they shift their direction completely, they go corporate full ahead, giving a **** about their former supporters, their base users. Blizzard did the same. They made the best computer games on the market. Everyone played at least one game of them. Then they came up with World of Warcraft. And it started awesome. Then they saw that the market was saturated and they went full speed from programming for adults to the 6 year old kids market. Cute pandabears everywhere.
Although they were making billions already. Why? because they could just do it.
Agilebits does the same. They go full corporate because they can. What are a million subscribers if you can be on every PC/ Mac on the corporate market?
Do they provide more? No. It is still the same password manager, it does still the same. Yes, it is more complicated today with security and all. It costs more money. But they cut features that don't cost more. That are already in the code. They cut them for their convenience and try to sell it to us as if it would be better and more secure for us. That's BS.
No. But just because something costs money it isn't better either. I don't mind paying a lot. I just don't want to pay for a steak and get served dog meat. I don't like to get ripped off. They promised to have native apps for years and then I get a Chrome browser window with a 1Password skin. And all they are saying is: "Oh, it's better for you, because now we can deliver real cross platform."
Yes. People either saved their passwords on pieces of paper and sticked them to the monitor or just saved them into the browser without encryption.
The ones I know are really bad. Or better: They need lots of resources. They don't look bad. They have their purpose. But most of them are annoying. It's ok if I have a text editor or a programming UI in Electron. Why not? My focus will be on the program while using it and then I close it.
But 1 Password is open all the time, in the background. It has its helper running. It has its plugin running. It has its 1Password mini running. It's running and just waiting for me to do something. I need it for a second and then it's in the background again. I'm not willing to sacrifice battery life, RAM, CPU to a background app that could work with 1/6 of the resources and the only reason why it's not doing exactly that is because their company got too greedy to keep a native app for it or to develop a better solution. Why not QT? Why Electron? Because it's cheap.
And then people start crying again all over forums: "Why is my battery draining so fast? Why is my M1 running hot?" Because of Chrome...
I understand it. I use Spotify because of the same reason. Because my mother, father, wife, all know how to use it... Now I can't just switch to Apple music. As soon as the family is involved it's not so easy to switch to other solutions. I get that. I would do the same. If my wife had started using 1Password I would stay with it because it would be senseless to show her how to use every other manager (except Enpass and Dashlane probably).
Passwords
All your important passwords stored securely and encrypted in one sophisticated application.
passwords.moapp.software
Here's one that I not sure have been shared yet?
MOApp has been around since forever. He's German and his website is primarily in German , so look for the English buttons or links on his website for better understanding what his applications can do.
MOApp once had a "menubar hiding" SIMBL plugin that had quite a following way back - the name is obvious, but currently I can't recollect the actual name.
This here is in English
https://moapp.software/freeware.html
MOApp Software Website
Apologies, sometimes I don’t pay as much attention as I should.
Just to get back at the main topic:
I've completely switched to Strongbox now. Strongbox on iOS is more than awesome, much faster than 1Password or any other password manager I've tested so far, except Keychain, but it is lacking some functions, so Strongbox is now my wining horse, for my needs.
I don't miss anything but there are several downsides, too, especially on MacOS:
1. the MacOS app isn't that far developed as the iOS one. It lacks some nice features the iOS version has.
2. some setting windows are too large for my 13" Macbook, so I had to disable the bar to be sure not to miss any setting but there aren't any features hidden so I enabled it again. It just doesn't look so good.
3. 1Password and Bitwarden were able to enter passwords into 3 fields at the same time, Strongbox isn't able to do that because of the Autofill limitations of MacOS. I have 1 website where this, my social security site. But I need it once a year so this is just a minor anoyance.
4. While the iOS app is as simple as it can get for a normal Computer person, I wouldn't try to explain both the iOS app or the MacOS app to my +60 year old parents or my wife, who want it as easy as possible. I could set it up for them, it's invisible to them except the finger print or the faceID but they wouldn't be able to edit or enter a new password on their own.
All in all it is very responsive. I realized that I don't need a fancy UI because I don't spend a lot of time looking at it. The Strongbox or Keepass UI in general is very clear and neat. This is awesome for editing. Imagine seeing 20 entries at once instead of a handful.
Strongbox needs around 50MB RAM, and although I did a lot of editing and playing around and although I have the main app open all the time (which you don't have to, it works closed, too, due to working with the OS Autofill) it used as little as 0.1 units of energy since the last time I charged my M1, which was 2 days ago.
Compared to the +300 MB RAM 1Password 8 is using, or +300 Bitwarden is using (also an Electron app) this is nothing. The same goes for iOS where Strongbox used 1% of energy in the last 10 days, and I used it a lot.
I've completely switched to Strongbox now. Strongbox on iOS is more than awesome, much faster than 1Password or any other password manager I've tested so far, except Keychain, but it is lacking some functions, so Strongbox is now my wining horse, for my needs.
I don't miss anything but there are several downsides, too, especially on MacOS:
1. the MacOS app isn't that far developed as the iOS one. It lacks some nice features the iOS version has.
2. some setting windows are too large for my 13" Macbook, so I had to disable the bar to be sure not to miss any setting but there aren't any features hidden so I enabled it again. It just doesn't look so good.
3. 1Password and Bitwarden were able to enter passwords into 3 fields at the same time, Strongbox isn't able to do that because of the Autofill limitations of MacOS. I have 1 website where this, my social security site. But I need it once a year so this is just a minor anoyance.
4. While the iOS app is as simple as it can get for a normal Computer person, I wouldn't try to explain both the iOS app or the MacOS app to my +60 year old parents or my wife, who want it as easy as possible. I could set it up for them, it's invisible to them except the finger print or the faceID but they wouldn't be able to edit or enter a new password on their own.
All in all it is very responsive. I realized that I don't need a fancy UI because I don't spend a lot of time looking at it. The Strongbox or Keepass UI in general is very clear and neat. This is awesome for editing. Imagine seeing 20 entries at once instead of a handful.
Strongbox needs around 50MB RAM, and although I did a lot of editing and playing around and although I have the main app open all the time (which you don't have to, it works closed, too, due to working with the OS Autofill) it used as little as 0.1 units of energy since the last time I charged my M1, which was 2 days ago.
Compared to the +300 MB RAM 1Password 8 is using, or +300 Bitwarden is using (also an Electron app) this is nothing. The same goes for iOS where Strongbox used 1% of energy in the last 10 days, and I used it a lot.
Yes Strongbox is great. Its my choice too.
Be reassured, using Autofill means not having to use a separate browser extension ...it improves security significantly. Keeping the attack surface of any software environment as small as possible is a basic security measure. Negating the need for browser extensions is sensible design. See The Case for Limiting Your Browser Extensions for example or just Google "browser extension attack surface".
This is why I never installed Flash when it was still a thing. It was one of the biggest malware attack surfaces you could get on your computer.
And plugins often have problems. Like 1Password plugin that suddenly disappeared and you had to restart the browser. This happened with every update.
@johnkree ... here is a new article about browser extensions and their security problems https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/11/chrome_extension_analyzer/. ..it just talks about Chromes efforts to combat problems...but interesting.
Here is the primary thing I liked about 1PW, I could pull up a log in page and from the browser extension, I could ask it to autofill in the user name/email +password. If it did not automatically recognize the page, it did not insist upon loading in a new page with what it thinks is linked to your log in.
Why would I not like loading the new page? Something about that seemed not as smooth. Anyway, this seemed more responsive than the password managers that rely exclusively on the MacOS autofill. Actually I’m not sure at all about the associated technologies of autofill, what the password manager does vs the MacOS, and security issues involved with browser extensions.
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