2017 Formula 1 Season Thread

[pachyderm]

Well, Hamilton is better than Stroll I will admit. You're right. He's also better than Palmer I'm pretty sure. Better than most, when most includes these two and Perez, Wehrlein, Ocon, etc, well yes I agree.

In the same league Alonso? Schumacher? Hakkinen? Prost? Senna? No, not at all. Look at what some drivers on the current grid are doing in their cars: Verstappen in his underpowered Red Bull, Alonso getting into Q2 in that poxed McLaren (twice!), Hulkenberg in the Renault...Hamilton can't even be a fair sport in the best car. It's pointless to argue about it, because while common sense says it's the car, his fans say it's 100% driver. Until You put Hamilton in a lousy car or put an Alonso or a Verstappen in a good car, any argument is baseless.

That's my biggest point of irritation with Hamilton: He's such a godamn poor sport about it, and his mindless fans just believe everything he says. Hamilton *has tantrum* goes "I didn't win, it's a conspiracy!" and his fans (99% of whom can't think for themselves) *goes on F1 forums, has tantrum* parrot back "Hamilton didn't win, it's a conspiracy!"

The hypocritical Hamilton fans, who say stats prove their boy is the best, say stats don't matter when Rosberg wins the title. Or that Rosberg didn't deserve it, or, wait for it: It's fixed against him. You don't need to justify it, that's quite true - stats prove his car is what has delivered his results. A motto of "Hamilton wins, it's all Hamilton. Hamilton loses, it's all Mercedes." is illogical nonsense.

The bottom line is that now we have stiffer competition at the front, Hamilton isn't such a wonderful driver after all, Bernie is gone (finally!), Jenson is back for one final race, and the sport is a whole hell of a lot more fun to watch.

But this post isn't intended as an argument or a rebuttal, but the nonsense of fanboyism. Let's just enjoy the season.

I couldn't have said it better.
[doublepost=1493686500][/doublepost]

Well feel sorry for Sauber. They have average drivers and an average chassis on a limited budget.
Next year they'll be getting a Honda engine!
McLaren will be switching to a Mercedes. But will Alonso still be around to see the benefit?
Either way Sauber might as well call 2018 'testing'.

I was hoping two teams would have a honda power plant...

 

[CWallace]

I was hoping two teams would have a honda power plant...

Yes, it would be better if Honda could keep McLaren, but it sounds like what McLaren want and what Honda want are not necessarily compatible.

As for Alonso, while there are rumors of him going back to Renault, things like letting him be in the Indy 500 (and perhaps LeMans) are McLaren trying to keep him happy so he stays put.

 

[Crazy Badger]

I was away this weekend so didn't manage to watch live, but I'm all caught up now and kind of wish I hadn't bothered. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to have another team in the mix for pole and the win, but after a few races now the changes have done nothing to improve the racing, and if anything have made it even worse.

The whole weekend was decided in the last few minutes of qualifying and the first 30 seconds of the race. Everything else was simply watching fast cars drive around a loop.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I was away this weekend so didn't manage to watch live, but I'm all caught up now and kind of wish I hadn't bothered. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to have another team in the mix for pole and the win, but after a few races now the changes have done nothing to improve the racing, and if anything have made it even worse.

The whole weekend was decided in the last few minutes of qualifying and the first 30 seconds of the race. Everything else was simply watching fast cars drive around a loop.

This is true, but I'm still jealous of my work mate heading to Spain in 2 weeks.

 

[zagato27]

I was away this weekend so didn't manage to watch live, but I'm all caught up now and kind of wish I hadn't bothered. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to have another team in the mix for pole and the win, but after a few races now the changes have done nothing to improve the racing, and if anything have made it even worse.

The whole weekend was decided in the last few minutes of qualifying and the first 30 seconds of the race. Everything else was simply watching fast cars drive around a loop.

^^^Exactly. Once the race gets by the first corner it's just a parade for the leaders.

 

[Apple fanboy]

^^^Exactly. Once the race gets by the first corner it's just a parade for the leaders.

Unless your driving a McLaren. Then your just praying you make it to the end!

 

[zagato27]

Unless your driving a McLaren. Then your just praying you make it to the end!

If in a Mclaren I think you're hoping to just start the race, burn some fuel, warm up the tires, just break a sweat (sheen only) then leisurely park it in the garage.

 

[Apple fanboy]

If in a Mclaren I think you're hoping to just start the race, burn some fuel, warm up the tires, just break a sweat (sheen only) then leisurely park it in the garage.

Or for a 19 car pile up!

 

[Melrose]

Yes, it would be better if Honda could keep McLaren, but it sounds like what McLaren want and what Honda want are not necessarily compatible.

As for Alonso, while there are rumors of him going back to Renault, things like letting him be in the Indy 500 (and perhaps LeMans) are McLaren trying to keep him happy so he stays put.

It's evident Honda won't have a be competitive this year, probably not next. So, I'd love to see Alonso go back to Renault; Mercedes is having a tough start, Ferrari is right out as a choice, but Renault is making progress and has resources and experience to make it happen. Red Bull, well, they only hire from within, and it would be Renault power anyway, so why not just go to the works supplier?

I hope they don't somehow manage to rope him into another 3-year contract*. Alonso isn't even my favorite driver and I want to see him fighting again.

*Late-2017, I can see it now:
Brown: "But Nando, we have wealthy owners and they want to win!"
Alonso: "You said that last year."
"Yes, but we have wealthy owners and they want to win! [inserts random brain-dead-F1-observations and cliché marketing gibberish]"
"You've convinced me! I'll stay!" *signs wealthy contract* "Espera un minuto! ¿Lo que acaba de suceder?! Santo mierda!!"

 

[pachyderm]

Yes, it would be better if Honda could keep McLaren, but it sounds like what McLaren want and what Honda want are not necessarily compatible.

As for Alonso, while there are rumors of him going back to Renault, things like letting him be in the Indy 500 (and perhaps LeMans) are McLaren trying to keep him happy so he stays put.

I hope he does go back to Renault.

 

[CWallace]

I hope he does go back to Renault.

What will he gain, though? The Renault engine is no match for the Ferrari, much less the Mercedes. The chassis this year has benefitted from being designed for a Renault power plant (last year it was still designed for Mercedes), but evidently the McLaren chassis is good so once it gets Mercedes power, it should be a competitive package again - and likely more competitive than Renault.

 

[AustinIllini]

What will he gain, though? The Renault engine is no match for the Ferrari, much less the Mercedes. The chassis this year has benefitted from being designed for a Renault power plant (last year it was still designed for Mercedes), but evidently the McLaren chassis is good so once it gets Mercedes power, it should be a competitive package again - and likely more competitive than Renault.

There's nothing to gain right now unless you're in a Merc or a Ferrari. At some point, you can hope for a rule change that throws the sport into disarray and the whole thing gets rebuilt and at that point, you're best at a factory team (So Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren, Renault), but even then your odds are 1/4 with the understand that Ferrari will catch up with their treasure trove of resources.

 

[pachyderm]

What will he gain, though? The Renault engine is no match for the Ferrari, much less the Mercedes. The chassis this year has benefitted from being designed for a Renault power plant (last year it was still designed for Mercedes), but evidently the McLaren chassis is good so once it gets Mercedes power, it should be a competitive package again - and likely more competitive than Renault.

only a little more reliability.

 

[AustinIllini]

In truth, while Ferrari and Mercedes are on even ground, Formula 1 is still broken if most of the drivers go into the race knowing they have no chance of winning.

 

[an-other]

I couldn't have said it better.
[doublepost=1493686500][/doublepost]

I was hoping two teams would have a honda power plant...

I respectfully beg to differ. By your own argument, how many podiums/races has Mclaren won since Lewis left?

 

[AustinIllini]

I respectfully beg to differ. By your own argument, how many podiums/races has Mclaren won since Lewis left?

What's the point? McLaren will never ever win a podium with Mercedes power. If Honda figures it out after a regulation change, McLaren actually has a chance at a podium.

 

[BenTrovato]

In truth, while Ferrari and Mercedes are on even ground, Formula 1 is still broken if most of the drivers go into the race knowing they have no chance of winning.

Simply and well stated.

To go even further.. even Ferrari and Mercedes now know the race is more or less determined at the start. Maybe a safety car or double yellow's can add some spice if it happens during a pit window but even then we're seeing the overtakes come in the pit lane instead of on track.

2017 racing is REALLY bad. They said they would give it 4 races before deciding if changes are required. Chase Carey's moustache better get to work, the show has gotten worse.

 

[an-other]

Well, Hamilton is better than Stroll I will admit. You're right. He's also better than Palmer I'm pretty sure. Better than most, when most includes these two and Perez, Wehrlein, Ocon, etc, well yes I agree.

In the same league Alonso? Schumacher? Hakkinen? Prost? Senna? No, not at all. Look at what some drivers on the current grid are doing in their cars: Verstappen in his underpowered Red Bull, Alonso getting into Q2 in that poxed McLaren (twice!), Hulkenberg in the Renault...Hamilton can't even be a fair sport in the best car. It's pointless to argue about it, because while common sense says it's the car, his fans say it's 100% driver. Until You put Hamilton in a lousy car or put an Alonso or a Verstappen in a good car, any argument is baseless.

That's my biggest point of irritation with Hamilton: He's such a godamn poor sport about it, and his mindless fans just believe everything he says. Hamilton *has tantrum* goes "I didn't win, it's a conspiracy!" and his fans (99% of whom can't think for themselves) *goes on F1 forums, has tantrum* parrot back "Hamilton didn't win, it's a conspiracy!"

The hypocritical Hamilton fans, who say stats prove their boy is the best, say stats don't matter when Rosberg wins the title. Or that Rosberg didn't deserve it, or, wait for it: It's fixed against him. You don't need to justify it, that's quite true - stats prove his car is what has delivered his results. A motto of "Hamilton wins, it's all Hamilton. Hamilton loses, it's all Mercedes." is illogical nonsense.

The bottom line is that now we have stiffer competition at the front, Hamilton isn't such a wonderful driver after all, Bernie is gone (finally!), Jenson is back for one final race, and the sport is a whole hell of a lot more fun to watch.

But this post isn't intended as an argument or a rebuttal, but the nonsense of fanboyism. Let's just enjoy the season.

Stats in F1 really don't mean much anymore. The number if races added to the calendar distort results.

1. Hamilton is a much better driver than you give him credit. He virtually pipped Alonso in his first F1 year, and this included Alonso intentional spoiling one of his qualifying runs. As I noted in another response: How many podiums have Mclaren International achieved since Lewis left.

2. Drivers regular whinge about equipment when they don't win. You can call out Mansell for complaining Honda was giving better ECU chips to Piquet...

3. Schumacher was a talented driver. Not the best of all time. Most of his career he was the number 1 driver om seasons with 16 or more races. Many of his victories are due to Willie Webber. Mclaren also made some bad car designs during the period, including one version that was never able to make the race track. Let's also not forget Eddie Irvine almost one the F1 championship in the Schumacher era when he was injured. No one is arguing Mr Irvine as a contender for best of all time.

4. Alonso is a tougher driver to rate. He was impressive in a Minardi. He won world championships with Renault (when they had the competitive advantage of a mass damper system. Still can't work out how that's a movable aerodynamic device, but he was competing against Ferrari's at the time.) He didn't win a championship with Ferrari, but finished twice. No grade can be given with the current Mclaren. What teammate did he consistently beat?

5. The Senna discussion always saddens me. A super impressive talent. It's hard to separate him from the Alain Prost discussion. Alain was more impressive to me based on the equipment and the teammates (many F1 Driver Champions) he beat. Alain destroyed Eddie Cheever (who was an highly sought Ferrari test driver as a teenager) at Renault. Bernie rated Alain the best in most recent Top Gear interview. I'm not alone.

6. Emerson Fittipaldi was the most impressive driver I've ever seen drive a car. Who know what the future would've brought had he not left a world championship winning team to start his own team.

 

[Melrose]

Stats in F1 really don't mean much anymore. The number if races added to the calendar distort results.

...

I agree; which is one reason I'm excited to see what drivers like Hulkenberg and especially Verstappen are doing in the drives they currently have. I think Ricciardo is also talented, but the car has let him down lately. Alonso has demonstrated his capability given how he's done in that car, even this year. While that doesn't qualify him as one of the "Greats" considering the fact most other drivers rate him so highly must be considered. He is widely regarded as a very versatile driver. The likes of Stroll, Palmer, Ocon, Perez, Wehrlein...these guys are more or less starch to flesh out the lineup.

In re Prost and Senna: While I put absolutely zero credibility in that pompous windbag Bernie I too preferred Prost, but both he and Senna had obvious talent. We'll have to wait a few years before we can say if a driver on our current lineup belongs in that company; to my earlier post, Hamilton certainly does not.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

In re Prost and Senna: While I put absolutely zero credibility in that pompous windbag Bernie I too preferred Prost, but both he and Senna had obvious talent. We'll have to wait a few years before we can say if a driver on our current lineup belongs in that company; to my earlier post, Hamilton certainly does not.

Then by your metric none of this generation are likely to be greats.

Leave the talent analysis to those of us that have prior knowledge of the likes of Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Hulkenberg etc and what they have achieved and demonstrated throughout their careers.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I agree; which is one reason I'm excited to see what drivers like Hulkenberg and especially Verstappen are doing in the drives they currently have. I think Ricciardo is also talented, but the car has let him down lately. Alonso has demonstrated his capability given how he's done in that car, even this year. While that doesn't qualify him as one of the "Greats" considering the fact most other drivers rate him so highly must be considered. He is widely regarded as a very versatile driver. The likes of Stroll, Palmer, Ocon, Perez, Wehrlein...these guys are more or less starch to flesh out the lineup.

In re Prost and Senna: While I put absolutely zero credibility in that pompous windbag Bernie I too preferred Prost, but both he and Senna had obvious talent. We'll have to wait a few years before we can say if a driver on our current lineup belongs in that company; to my earlier post, Hamilton certainly does not.

Like him or loathe him I'm surprised of your dismissal of Hamilton's talents.
He has certainly proved to be one of the consist performers. Yes he has had good cars but then show me a world champion who hasn't.
Vettel had the best car when he won his.
But look how Ricardo outclassed him in the season he replaced Webber.
He usually beats his team mate over the season. I say usually due to last year, but tbh without the engine reliability he'd have walked it.

 

[Melrose]

Then by your metric none of this generation are likely to be greats.

Leave the talent analysis to those of us that have prior knowledge of the likes of Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Hulkenberg etc and what they have achieved and demonstrated throughout their careers.

"Prior knowledge"...sounds weird. Could you enlighten me on exactly what kind of qualifiable metric that is? Because when it comes down to it, neither you nor me have the credibility to analyze talent....regardless of long either of us have been following the sport. We're not professionals, we've never driven the cars, and one of us is a biased fan. Given that all the stats are online anyway, I don't know why you even brought that up in the first place. :?

But please don't take it personally. I'm simply trying to analyze the metrics that count: Not the car so much as the driver's versatility and what they've done in cars that obviously aren't the best. Hamilton is a fine driver, he's just not as good as you make him out to be.

[Hamilton] has certainly proved to be one of the consistent performers. ... I say usually due to last year, but tbh without the engine reliability he'd have walked it.

...and see that's the thing that really irks me about Hamilton and his illogical fans. We can reword your comment thus: "Hamilton is so consistent, except when he's not, and then it's someone else's fault."

Rosberg won the title fair and square. You can't use race results when it suits you and ignore them when it doesn't. Rosberg won, Hamilton lost - and that's using the same stats that you use as proof of his talent.

I'm done here. Have fun guys. : )

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

"Prior knowledge"...sounds weird. Could you enlighten me on exactly what kind of qualifiable metric that is? Because when it comes down to it, neither you nor me have the credibility to analyze talent....regardless of long either of us have been following the sport. We're not professionals, we've never driven the cars, and one of us is a biased fan. Given that all the stats are online anyway, I don't know why you even brought that up in the first place. :?

But please don't take it personally. I'm simply trying to analyze the metrics that count: Not the car so much as the driver's versatility and what they've done in cars that obviously aren't the best. Hamilton is a fine driver, he's just not as good as you make him out to be.



...and see that's the thing that really irks me about Hamilton and his illogical fans. We can reword your comment thus: "Hamilton is so consistent, except when he's not, and then it's someone else's fault."

Rosberg won the title fair and square. You can't use race results when it suits you and ignore them when it doesn't. Rosberg won, Hamilton lost - and that's using the same stats that you use as proof of his talent.

I'm done here. Have fun guys. : )

As I said, none of the current guys will be greats by your metric. If Hamilton is 'not as good as I make out' then neither is Alonso or Vettel and I disagree with that. I'm a fan of them all. Your dislike for Hamilton evidently creates a conflict of interest where you can't evaluate his achievements beyond having a good car for a few years of his F1 career. I don't accept that.

I'm ending this too. It's reminded me why I gave up discussing F1 on the internet.

 

[pachyderm]

I respectfully beg to differ. By your own argument, how many podiums/races has Mclaren won since Lewis left?

sorry, your argument is moot. lewis isn't why they won. power plants are why they win.

if lewis were still at mcclaren he'd probably be the one tooling around indianapolis right now instead of alonso.

IF two teams had honda power at least there'd be that much more data, testing, and development of the honda power plant. as it is there's one team and they don't even finish[or even begin sometimes] races.


there is a F1 page on FB that i'm a member of and a chap on there is adamant that BAR - Honda won a title with JV and JB. lol.

 

[BenTrovato]

Guys guys guys! The driver conversation has been dead for over a decade! This isn't 1985 where some kid out of Brazil showed up and started doing things with the car no one has seen before.

Now everyone has grown up with extensive training since they were kids. Just listen to Verstappen, Ocon, and Stroll - they speak in terms that only veterans used to know. Gone are the days where Ayrton Senna's edge was that he trained like a real athlete in the summer to increase his focus and fitness. Now they all train, they all eat properly, they all have the same skills.

In F1 all drivers drive to a delta and they all pretty much hit it consistently. Alonso touched on it yesterday during his Indy car post brief where he talks about how technology dominates all areas of F1. I wish people understood this better. There is zero difference between Hamilton, Ricciardo, Alonso, or Vettel. Maybe one is better in the rain with the right setup, maybe one had a better sleep the night before and performs better today - but overall, all these guys are equal in terms of driving to the delta of tech machine.