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2017 Formula 1 Season Thread

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BenTrovato said:
Guys guys guys! The driver conversation has been dead for over a decade! This isn't 1985 where some kid out of Brazil showed up and started doing things with the car no one has seen before.

Now everyone has grown up with extensive training since they were kids. Just listen to Verstappen, Ocon, and Stroll - they speak in terms that only veterans used to know. Gone are the days where Ayrton Senna's edge was that he trained like a real athlete in the summer to increase his focus and fitness. Now they all train, they all eat properly, they all have the same skills.

In F1 all drivers drive to a delta and they all pretty much hit it consistently. Alonso touched on it yesterday during his Indy car post brief where he talks about how technology dominates all areas of F1. I wish people understood this better. There is zero difference between Hamilton, Ricciardo, Alonso, or Vettel. Maybe one is better in the rain with the right setup, maybe one had a better sleep the night before and performs better today - but overall, all these guys are equal in terms of driving to the delta of tech machine.
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I agree to a degree but not all drivers handle the pressure the same. Hamilton used to crack at times but hasn't in recent years and even Vettel has had his moments.

I'm not suggesting anybody is better than the other and notice I have never outlined Hamilton as the best, just one of. These guys are mostly equal and having the best car is what finishes the package. You give any of these guys the best car and they get the job done.
 
BenTrovato said:
Guys guys guys! The driver conversation has been dead for over a decade! This isn't 1985 where some kid out of Brazil showed up and started doing things with the car no one has seen before.
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Tell that to Verstappen, I think he did not get your memo in Brazil last year....
BenTrovato said:
There is zero difference between Hamilton, Ricciardo, Alonso, or Vettel. Maybe one is better in the rain with the right setup, maybe one had a better sleep the night before and performs better today - but overall, all these guys are equal in terms of driving to the delta of tech machine.
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i guess that explains be why some get payed so much and some don't... oh wait...
 
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ppcebay said:
Tell that to Verstappen, I think he did not get your memo in Brazil last year....

i guess that explains be why some get payed so much and some don't... oh wait...
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No offence.. if you know any racing drivers, they will tell you the same thing. If you're a TV fan you'll think some drivers are better than others.

In terms of driver salaries, they are determined by sponsors. Alonso gets paid a ton because he brings a ton in sponsorship so his "salary" is more than paid for. Hamilton as a triple world champion brings a ton of sponsorship deals. This is common knowledge, not much to discuss to argue in terms of driver salaries. Sponsors pay the team more than the driver gets. Often times the driver salary is "free". Look at what Bottas is being paid - he doesn't bring the sponsorship money Hamilton or Nico brought so he's getting paid peanuts in comparison - nothing to do with talent. Cheers to learning something new everyday.
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The-Real-Deal82 said:
I agree to a degree but not all drivers handle the pressure the same. Hamilton used to crack at times but hasn't in recent years and even Vettel has had his moments.

I'm not suggesting anybody is better than the other and notice I have never outlined Hamilton as the best, just one of. These guys are mostly equal and having the best car is what finishes the package. You give any of these guys the best car and they get the job done.
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Absolutely agree. Sure, some drivers are better at feedback, some drivers are better people and the teams like them more, some drivers are pricks. At the end of the day, they all consistently hit the lap delta that the car is able to deliver. The best car always wins.
 
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pachyderm said:
sorry, your argument is moot. lewis isn't why they won. power plants are why they win.

if lewis were still at mcclaren he'd probably be the one tooling around indianapolis right now instead of alonso. ;)

IF two teams had honda power at least there'd be that much more data, testing, and development of the honda power plant. as it is there's one team and they don't even finish[or even begin sometimes] races.


there is a F1 page on FB that i'm a member of and a chap on there is adamant that BAR - Honda won a title with JV and JB. lol.
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Let me start by saying I respect everyone's opinions. My point I inelegantly made here is prior to Lewis leaving McLaren, the Mercedes factory team did not have a victory. Sorry I can't spend the time to research the number of podiums. The McLaren Mercedes team with Lewis outscored the factory team. Similarly the year he left (2013?) The Mercedes factory team with Lewis outscored McLaren. (I know nothing is a simple comparison. By this time both Mercedes and Ferrari had raided a lot of McLaren talent.) That noted, you also can't ignore Lewis does bring something to the table.

Bernie is a windbag that generally has an agenda when he speaks. it's hard for me to see an agenda in rating drivers. I also rate Murray Walker. Super nice guy, too from my experience.

Prost/Senna is always a tough one. If you're for Prost it is implied you're against Senna. Nothing is further from the truth for me. Both awesome drivers that careers intersected. Prost at the end. Senna on the ascendency. Senna tragically never had the full career cycle. Prost accomplished more and was the greater talent (in my view.)

Senna was not the one that changed fitness in F1. He used the same physio as Lauda. He was the first to bag the donkey work of winter testing. Of course, if you had Prost doing it, why would you be bothered? Schumacher ushered in the super fit era. It's been reported he did it as he viewed Mika H as a faster driver than him, and he needed an edge. Not claiming it as true, but it's a fun story to repeat.


I agree comparing Mercedes to Honda McLaren is not in any part reasonable. It's shocking to me how wrong Honda has gotten it.

And because it's a current event: I'm embarrassed for McLaren that they're doing the publicity stunt of putting Alonso at Indy. Monaco is the one race they have a chance to do well, especially if it rains. Indy is also not without a heckuva lot of risk either. You're not talking one race. You're talking an abbreviated month of testing, too. Without disrespecting Alonso's talent, this is a completely different type of racing than he spent his life gaining experience. Nelson Piquet walks with a limp now from his learning not to lift at between 1 and 2 regardless of what his eyes were telling him to do.
 
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an-other said:
And because it's a current event: I'm embarrassed for McLaren that they're doing the publicity stunt of putting Alonso at Indy. Monaco is the one race they have a chance to do well, especially if it rains.
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Monaco is all about qualifying position and Alonso could probably make Top 10, but he's not going to be Top 5. So even if it rains, he's not going to be in a position to do more than score a handful of points.

And McLaren isn't doing this for publicity - they're doing this to keep Alonso from leaving for Renault (if not this year, than in 2018). They can't keep him motivated, so they have to keep him happy. He wants to do Indy - and LeMans - so knowing they have pretty much nothing to gain forcing him to drive at Monaco but a couple of points (something frankly Jenson can do at Monaco), they are letting him have his wish.
 
If you want to compare drivers you can only really do it verses their team mate.
The only caveat being when a team openly promotes one driver over another.
For example when Massa out qualifying Alonso occasional whilst both at Ferrari, they would change his gearbox so he would end up behind Alonso with a penalty.
 
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BenTrovato said:
No offence.. if you know any racing drivers, they will tell you the same thing. If you're a TV fan you'll think some drivers are better than others.
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Any racing driver? You mean the ones who finish behind their teammates right?

Because any winning drivers would beg to say that they make the difference!

Hamilton surely does not think He and Rosberg were a match, Schumacher did definetly NOT think he was on par with Massa / Barrichello / Irvine and Vettel does definetly not think he is at the same level as Webber.... now if you flip the names may be you are right, surely Barrichello / Massa / Irvine / Webber might have tought that the car was the sole difference, but that is only because admitting being slower than their team mates hurt big times!

No I am not just tv fan, I used to do some racing (minor for sure but still... and admittedly I was good but not that good, hence I can admit that haveing a team mate beating you HURTS, but it is not just up to the car!!!) and I strongly belive a great driver still makes the difference (yes it might not as a big difference as it was in the past but still).

Claiming high salary drivers get more money because they bring sponsor is silly, from your perspective Ericsson and Stroll should the the highest paid drivers of the pack (Consider that Sauber is where it is today "still alive" thanks to his sponsor's money).

Yes a better driver brings sponsors (but pay drivers do just that as well), you are willing to spend x ammount of millions because the drivers brings back a return value, partially in sponsorhip, and partially in race result, it is a show business, no show no business, no business no show, and a great driver needs to bring both (Show as in race results and Business as in Sponsorship)!

We all Saw what Badoer or Fisichella did in a Ferrari wfew years back, it was embarassing for them, care to explain how they managed to do that bad IF drivers are not the difference?
 
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ppcebay said:
Any racing driver? You mean the ones who finish behind their teammates right?

Because any winning drivers would beg to say that they make the difference!

Hamilton surely does not think He and Rosberg were a match, Schumacher did definetly NOT think he was on par with Massa / Barrichello / Irvine and Vettel does definetly not think he is at the same level as Webber.... now if you flip the names may be you are right, surely Barrichello / Massa / Irvine / Webber might have tought that the car was the sole difference, but that is only because admitting being slower than their team mates hurt big times!

No I am not just tv fan, I used to do some racing (minor for sure but still... and admittedly I was good but not that good, hence I can admit that haveing a team mate beating you HURTS, but it is not just up to the car!!!) and I strongly belive a great driver still makes the difference (yes it might not as a big difference as it was in the past but still).

Claiming high salary drivers get more money because they bring sponsor is silly, from your perspective Ericsson and Stroll should the the highest paid drivers of the pack (Consider that Sauber is where it is today "still alive" thanks to his sponsor's money).

Yes a better driver brings sponsors (but pay drivers do just that as well), you are willing to spend x ammount of millions because the drivers brings back a return value, partially in sponsorhip, and partially in race result, it is a show business, no show no business, no business no show, and a great driver needs to bring both (Show as in race results and Business as in Sponsorship)!

We all Saw what Badoer or Fisichella did in a Ferrari wfew years back, it was embarassing for them, care to explain how they managed to do that bad IF drivers are not the difference?
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Very clearly some drivers are better than others. very clearly some machines are better than others.
 
pachyderm said:
Very clearly some drivers are better than others. very clearly some machines are better than others.
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Oh yes!

And some of the better drivers with a "regular car" can still be in front of a "regular driver" with a better car, this is how they earn their "value".

Vettel at RedBull had the best car and by a good margin and won so much, yet Webber never finished 2nd place in the championship with the same equipment, meaning better drivers with a "worse" (Alonso in 2013, Alonso / Raikkonen / Hamilton / Button in 2012, Button in 2011) car did a better job ;).
 
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CWallace said:
And McLaren isn't doing this for publicity - they're doing this to keep Alonso from leaving for Renault (if not this year, than in 2018). They can't keep him motivated, so they have to keep him happy. He wants to do Indy - and LeMans - so knowing they have pretty much nothing to gain forcing him to drive at Monaco but a couple of points (something frankly Jenson can do at Monaco), they are letting him have his wish.
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This is the official line, and I'm just putting forth my view. I'm sceptical this is accurate. Both Mclaren and Honda have a tarnished reputation from F1 now. They need good publicity like oxygen. Just look at the car sponsorship: what name is on the sidepods of the '32 ?

F1 Championship points are worth too much money to make a "keep a driver happy decision" at the expense of the team funding. Oil prices are down (which has to impact to some degree the Bahrain Capital co-owners of Mclaren. Monsieur O took some of his branding to Red Bull. Ron was kicked to the kerb. I can't imagine the golden taps are flowing like they used to. And, you can't sell exotic sportscars by being a bottom team in F1. Or, at least, Stryker was unable to pull it off. Button is capable for sure. He's not Alonso. They had their choice between the two, and they put Alonso in the seat. Let's not forget Monaco is a golden jewel. More key sponsors (current/future) will attend that race than others -- at least as a destination choice. It's a situation where you have Alonso, Button, and Stoffel rub elbows for maximum benefit.

Another reason I'm not drinking the kool aid: Would Alonso sign on to McLaren for 2018 if he thought the Renault would be faster even if it meant he got to run Indy or LeMans? Let's take Renault out of the picture. What if Bottas's contract is not taken up: Would Alonso choose Mclaren over Mercedes? (And you know Alonso is doing everything he can to score that seat.)

F1 is now owned by a US company. The Mclaren CEO is American who's specialty is marketing/branding/sponsorship. The views of Alonso's practice laps at the brickyard are exceeding expectations. The Mclaren name is being spoken with high regard in a market that sells a lot of exotic cars. I can at least justify why I'm sceptical.

Other random thoughts (and yes, I love to talk/write about F1):
Lewis screamed up the ladder to F1. Nico notsomuch. He benefited more in the lower ranks from being deeply funded. Nico won a championship. Can't take it away. Lewis had an inordinate amount of DNFs that year. That's motor racing. Nico is also responsible for two of the most egregious moves I've seen in the last three years. (And, I consider Lewis's slowing in Abu Dhabi reprehensible, too.)

There was a comment about Badoer and Fisichella in a Ferrari. I doubt anyone could understand the pressure of being an Italian and driving for Ferrari. I was super-impressed with Ivan Capelli during his Leyton House stint. He imploded in Maranello. Sandro Nanini in a Ferrari would've made me a Ferrari fan. it's a shame his F1 career ended the way it did.
 
an-other said:
This is the official line, and I'm just putting forth my view. I'm sceptical this is accurate. Both Mclaren and Honda have a tarnished reputation from F1 now. They need good publicity like oxygen. Just look at the car sponsorship: what name is on the sidepods of the '32 ?

F1 Championship points are worth too much money to make a "keep a driver happy decision" at the expense of the team funding.
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I agree, but frankly Button can score points at Monaco as well as Alonso can. So it's not like not having Alonso in the car is risking Championship Points - especially considering how darn fragile the Honda engine seems to be right now.



an-other said:
And, you can't sell exotic sportscars by being a bottom team in F1. Or, at least, Stryker was unable to pull it off.
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Stryker doesn't have the history McLaren does. Nor Ferrari, for that matter, who still sold cars in the 1980s when their F1 team was crap. :) Honestly, I expect McLaren is selling more on the foundation of their F1 road car than their F1 race cars. And their current road cars have proven themselves to be exceptional machines from all accounts, so like Ferrari of today, they sell on their own performance merits, not on the merits of their F1 team's performance.


an-other said:
Button is capable for sure. He's not Alonso. They had their choice between the two, and they put Alonso in the seat. Let's not forget Monaco is a golden jewel. More key sponsors (current/future) will attend that race than others -- at least as a destination choice. It's a situation where you have Alonso, Button, and Stoffel rub elbows for maximum benefit.
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Oh I agree Alonso is the better driver than Button. And yes, Monaco is where the deals are made. But frankly McLaren hasn't been able to land a title sponsor at the past two Monaco GPs - and much of that is said to be because of what Dennis wanted for the privilege.

an-other said:
Another reason I'm not drinking the kool aid: Would Alonso sign on to McLaren for 2018 if he thought the Renault would be faster even if it meant he got to run Indy or LeMans? Let's take Renault out of the picture. What if Bottas's contract is not taken up: Would Alonso choose Mclaren over Mercedes? (And you know Alonso is doing everything he can to score that seat.)
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I am not sure Alonso would want to go back to Mercedes with Lewis still there. Especially after seeing what happened between Lewis and Nico. Assuming Lewis wins the WDC this year, that will be three with him for Mercedes AMG. No way he's not going to be their #1 driver in 2018 and I don't think Alonso is going to want to be a #2. He didn't at McLaren in 2007 (not that he was, but there was an active competition between him and Lewis for who would be the unofficial #1 at least) and I think he went back to McLaren in part because Vettel coming into Ferrari was going to make him their #1 driver.
 
CWallace said:
I am not sure Alonso would want to go back to Mercedes with Lewis still there. Especially after seeing what happened between Lewis and Nico. Assuming Lewis wins the WDC this year, that will be three with him for Mercedes AMG. No way he's not going to be their #1 driver in 2018 and I don't think Alonso is going to want to be a #2. He didn't at McLaren in 2007 (not that he was, but there was an active competition between him and Lewis for who would be the unofficial #1 at least) and I think he went back to McLaren in part because Vettel coming into Ferrari was going to make him their #1 driver.
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You might be right. I think Alonso thinks he can beat anyone in equal machinery and more or less he's always beaten his teammate so he's likely to think he's still the best.

I also think Alonso would love to go to Mercedes because Ferrari won't take him, there are no other competitive cars and his career is coming to an end. He'd rather throw everything he has in 1 year at Mercedes than fiddle around with cars that have no shot at the championship.

Unfortunately Mercedes will never sign Alonso. Mercedes AMG's F1 operation is now owned partly by Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda so the success of the team is paramount to their wallets. An Alonso-Hamilton rivalry would be worse than Nico-Lewis so they learned their lesson and will not repeat. Coupled with the fact that Toto used to manage Bottas, it was always going to be Bottas in Rosbergs seat and I wouldn't be surprised to see Mercedes fully support this pairing for as long as Lewis wants to stay. Bottas and Wolff are in cahoots and that's unlikely to change.
 
ppcebay said:
Who is Stryker? you guys mean Spyker?
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Or did he mean Stryper?

bandphoto.jpg
 
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ppcebay said:
Any racing driver? You mean the ones who finish behind their teammates right?

Because any winning drivers would beg to say that they make the difference!

Hamilton surely does not think He and Rosberg were a match, Schumacher did definetly NOT think he was on par with Massa / Barrichello / Irvine and Vettel does definetly not think he is at the same level as Webber.... now if you flip the names may be you are right, surely Barrichello / Massa / Irvine / Webber might have tought that the car was the sole difference, but that is only because admitting being slower than their team mates hurt big times!

No I am not just tv fan, I used to do some racing (minor for sure but still... and admittedly I was good but not that good, hence I can admit that haveing a team mate beating you HURTS, but it is not just up to the car!!!) and I strongly belive a great driver still makes the difference (yes it might not as a big difference as it was in the past but still).

Claiming high salary drivers get more money because they bring sponsor is silly, from your perspective Ericsson and Stroll should the the highest paid drivers of the pack (Consider that Sauber is where it is today "still alive" thanks to his sponsor's money).

Yes a better driver brings sponsors (but pay drivers do just that as well), you are willing to spend x ammount of millions because the drivers brings back a return value, partially in sponsorhip, and partially in race result, it is a show business, no show no business, no business no show, and a great driver needs to bring both (Show as in race results and Business as in Sponsorship)!

We all Saw what Badoer or Fisichella did in a Ferrari wfew years back, it was embarassing for them, care to explain how they managed to do that bad IF drivers are not the difference?
Click to expand...

Remember now, before we bash Fisi too much... he won in a Renault, ('05 AUS, '06 MAL,) and a Jordan, ('03 BRA).
 
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