2020 Air Heatsink Modification Thread

[high heaven]

Take s look at the CPU core watt. max is 10 give or take watt... Package watt includes the GPU and DRAM as well as CPU Core

View attachment 903277

That's not maxed and it proves my point. How come it reaches higher than 10 watts? The reason why it sustains the wattage at 10W is because of overheating as an MBA can not exhaust the heat properly so that CPU needs to lower the wattage or performance in order to decrease the temperature.

Seriously, if you gonna provide evidence, you better provide proper info.

 

[Mike Boreham]

I briefly had a 2015 MacBook, but the throttling/performance was so bad it couldn't run powerpoint without crazy lag. I considered that machine unusable, as I can't imagine a much lighter workload than putting together presentations in powerpoint. I've stayed away from these "low power chips" since. Maybe the MBAs are better than the older finless MacBooks, but I'm still skeptical.

I never had a 2015 MacBook but here is my 2017 MacBook running DeepHiarcs chess analysis at 280% CPU. Throttles back from about 3 to 2.4 and stays there. No crawling.

 

[nnoob]

Unless you simultaneously load the CPU and GPU. I've seen my i7 drop as low as 800 MHz in that kind of scenario and hover around 1.1 GHz when the base clock is 1.2 GHz. I'm kind of wondering what the point of a quad core CPU in this machine is when anything that could actually take advantage of it gets heavily hindered by throttling.

Yeah, the CPU core drop watt when to keep package power lower to balance the power hungry CPU and GPU cores. Remember the package TDP is 10 watt. based on the data 4 watt for gpu and 6 watt for cput.

[automerge]1585935163[/automerge]

That's not maxed and it proves my point. How come it reaches higher than 10 watts? The reason why it sustains the wattage at 10W is because of overheating as an MBA can not exhaust the heat properly so that CPU needs to lower the wattage or performance in order to decrease the temperature.

Seriously, if you gonna provide evidence, you better provide proper info.

Huh? 10 watt give or take is the max it can do sustained.
[automerge]1585935469[/automerge]
Look at the datasheet for this CPU model

Intel® Core™ i5-1030NG7 Processor (6M Cache, up to 3.50 GHz) Product Specifications

Intel® Core™ i5-1030NG7 Processor (6M Cache, up to 3.50 GHz) quick reference guide including specifications, features, pricing, compatibility, design documentation, ordering codes, spec codes and more.

ark.intel.com

 

[high heaven]

Huh? 10 watt give or take is the max it can do sustained.

You did not say the sustainable max wattage.

Not true. 10 watt is not even maximum base on Max's videos. I saw 12w or 15w base on the work.

That is what I said.

"Take s look at the CPU core watt. max is 10 give or takes watt... Package watt includes the GPU and DRAM as well as CPU Core"

Your image clearly showed it reaches up to 15W. Yes, it drops to 10W due to the poor cooling system without a heat pipe in order to control the heat from the CPU. This is why people asked to add a heat pipe to MBA 2020 to exhaust the heat properly.

Look at the datasheet for this CPU model

Intel's TDP is base on only one core, not dual or quad-core. This means the real TDP value can be very different base on dual or quad-cores. Power consumption is not TDP and they are separate things.

Why Intel Processors Draw More Power Than Expected: TDP and Turbo Explained

www.anandtech.com

 

[nnoob]

Your image clearly showed it reaches up to 15W. Yes, it drops to 10W due to the poor cooling system without a heat pipe in order to control the heat from the CPU. This is why people asked to add a heat pipe to MBA 2020 to exhaust the heat properly.



Intel's TDP is base on only one core, not dual or quad-core. This means the real TDP value can be very different base on dual or quad-cores. Power consumption is not TDP and they are separate things.

15 watt is part of the Turbo boost watt. See intel presentation:

I observed the same thing in action in intel power gadget..

Wrong: TDP is the for entire CPU die, this includes the all the core, GPU, and memory controller

 

[high heaven]

15 watt is part of the Turbo boost watt. See intel presentation:
View attachment 903434

Not always. For only one core? What frequency? You need to be specific.

Wrong: TDP is the for entire CPU die, this includes the all the core, GPU, and memory controller

Wrong. You are not thinking about the frequency at all. Also, Intel is well known for inaccurate TDP value for their own CPU. For example, 9980HK consumes up to 130W. Do you really think the TDP value is only 45W? No. Consuming more power means more thermal.
[automerge]1585976769[/automerge]

Y series used to have TDP 4.5W and now MBA 2020 has Ice Lake Y series with 10~15W. MBP with 15W U series has at least a proper cooler. MBA 2018~2020 has to lower its clock speed and wattage in order to lower the temperature since it does not have a proper cooler without a heat pipe. Ice Lake Y series uses 10~15W which requires a better cooler.

Stop defending the MBA's cooling system.

 

[nnoob]

Not always. For only one core? What frequency? You need to be specific.

Wrong. You are not thinking about the frequency at all. Also, Intel is well known for inaccurate TDP value for their own CPU. For example, 9980HK consumes up to 130W. Do you really think the TDP value is only 45W? No. Consuming more power means more thermal.
[automerge]1585976769[/automerge]

Y series used to have TDP 4.5W and now MBA 2020 has Ice Lake Y series with 10~15W. MBP with 15W U series has at least a proper cooler. MBA 2018~2020 has to lower its clock speed and wattage in order to lower the temperature since it does not have a proper cooler without a heat pipe. Ice Lake Y series uses 10~15W which requires a better cooler.

Stop defending the MBA's cooling system.

All the cores to one core, or/and GPU , up to 30-35 watt TDP can be used for 30 seconds then it bring itself down to 10 watt after the boost expire..

Where is the evidence say 15 watt TDP is the max sustained load? Intel says it is 10 watt TDP and the cooling system is fine for 10 watt TDP for max sustained load on all cores to one core, or/and GPU.

for both the turbo boost and sustained clock, at the minimum 1.1 ghz can be guaranteed , up to 3.5ghz for i3 and i5 / 3.8ghz for i7. GPU can clock at the minimum 300 mhz can be guaranteed, up to 900mhz for i3 /1.05 for i5 / 1.1 for i7.

I did not say it is best but fine for the job. Fine mean not the best solution for the job but does okay. I'm confused is fine mean i'm defending MBA cooling system?

 

[high heaven]

All the cores to one core, or/and GPU , up to 30-35 watt TDP can be used for 30 seconds then it bring itself down to 10 watt after the boost expire..

Where is the evidence say 15 watt TDP is the max sustained load? Intel says it is 10 watt TDP and the cooling system is fine for 10 watt TDP for max sustained load on all cores to one core, or/and GPU.

for both the turbo boost and sustained clock, at the minimum 1.1 ghz can be guaranteed , up to 3.5ghz for i3 and i5 / 3.8ghz for i7. GPU can clock at the minimum 300 mhz can be guaranteed, up to 900mhz for i3 /1.05 for i5 / 1.1 for i7.

I did not say it is best but fine for the job. Fine mean not the best solution for the job but does okay. I'm confused is fine mean i'm defending MBA cooling system?

Did I say sustain? It reaches 15W for sure and Y series had 4.5W with dual cores for passive cooling.

Fine does not mean it's ok especially since Intel making poor products. It would've been better if it has a proper cooler for better performance. Also, it has a chance to have hardware issues as it might not be able to exhaust the heat from inside. Will you risk your money for that especially after the warranty expire?

Like I said, adding a heat pipe shouldn't be a problem and yet Apple made a weird design with its cooler by making it almost fanless.

 

[jgorman]

Guys, I think there is room for reasonable people to disagree on this. With the world the way it is now, I would urge everyone to take care to spread extra kindness and understanding, even on internet forums.

 

[Tubamajuba]

I have to give this machine some credit. I played an 8k60 YouTube video in Firefox knowing full well it would bring the system to its knees, and sure enough I got one frame every ten seconds or so as the CPU/GPU struggled to do just about anything with the video. The system was otherwise still running butter smooth and responsive however, even with the video visible as I navigated through Finder and other programs. Fan wasn't too loud, either! CPU temps hit 100, but pointing that out is like saying the sun rises every morning.

It still seems to be one of Apple's worst computers ever in terms of sustained performance under heavy workloads, but the CPU has an impressive ability to ramp up and down in most other scenarios to make the most of its extremely limited power and thermal budget.

I really hope somebody can come up with an aftermarket cooling assembly with a heatpipe, that would make this thing a beast.

 

[nnoob]

Did I say sustain? Clearly, you are not reading my threads at all. It reaches 15W for sure and Y series had 4.5W with dual cores for passive cooling.

I don't know how you come up with 15 watt. Where in Intel tech datasheet does it say it's rated TDP is 15 Watt?
[automerge]1586014356[/automerge]

I really hope somebody can come up with an aftermarket cooling assembly with a heatpipe, that would make this thing a beast.

Aftermarket cooler won't help at all. It will still throttle down to 10 watt TDP (after the boost expire) no matter how good the cooler is due to Apple/Intel's turbo boost firmware limitation.

 

[TechieGeek]

Do any of those Google results point to a machine under sustained load staying at ~100 degrees C like the 2020 MacBook Air?

Why not look at the sustained performance rather than obsessing over the reading of the thermometer?

 

[ayres]

This thread’s ridiculous! I’m disappointed no one’s citing thermal conduction rates. Let’s break out those Greek characters!

 

[NoBoMac]

Moderator Note:

Some posts have been removed. Keep the discussion civil.

 

[high heaven]

MBA 2020's CPU has better performance than what 2019 13 inch MBP has.

However, when you start using it for works or heavy uses, it actually worse than 2019 13 inch MBP because of the poor cooling system which is not able to cool down the CPU part.

It's just very disappointing that Apple made MBA 2018~2020's cooling system like that and it would've been better if it has a freaking heat pipe!

 

[nylon]

Has this Max guy considered he might have received a dud unit? None of the other reviews seem to have the problems this guy is facing.

 

[TechieGeek]

MBA 2020's CPU has better performance than what 2019 13 inch MBP has.

However, when you start using it for works or heavy uses, it actually worse than 2019 13 inch MBP because of the poor cooling system which is not able to cool down the CPU part.

It's just very disappointing that Apple made MBA 2018~2020's cooling system like that and it would've been better if it has a freaking heat pipe!

“I’m not sure if this is negligence, or if this is intentional because Apple didn’t want the Air to compete with the Pro.”

okay mr. drama queen Max

 

[Mike Boreham]

The tone of this thread is that once a machine throttles it has become useless. But the reality is that the performance drop will not be noticeable to most users in the intended market. It only bothers benchmarkers, and people using the wrong machine for the job who might notice.

The Notebook check editorial mentioned by Mick2 has six case studies and the average performance drop is 20%.

If laptops were all designed for no throttling there would be a penalty on size, weight and cost for the cooling system needed. Far better for this market to accept 20% throttling. People who need the maximum continuous performance can get different machines.

(EDIT as noted by jgorman above didn't see until after posting this) Notebookcheck now has performance drop data for the 2020 MBA i5. About 12% drop after 25 Cinebench runs.

Their main complaint is about noise, even though the review also says "The fan behavior is also very similar to the predecessor...."

 

[intelligence]

okay mr. drama queen Max

How is that drama? Seems pretty obvious that Apple don't want the Air to cannibalize Pro sales, from a marketing perspective it makes totally sense. Too bad that it could've been better if they allowed it.

 

[Pierre-Luc Dionne]

This guy says that this is not a problem that could kill the cpu over time. I'm still waiting for mine to arrive, but I think overall, it seems to be a great laptop

 

[jgorman]

If anyone was interested in the i3, it seems to be similar in terms of the thermals to the i5.

 

[dapa0s]

New Apple laptop, new drama. Some people will just never be happy (or just hate Apple in general)...

 

[throAU]

It seems Chrome can even get it to 100 degrees. Turning off turbo boost seems to help though.

better solution than disabling boost entirely would be to lower the power limit. instead of letting it ramp up to 10 watts (or 20 or whatever), cap it at 8-9 (or 15 or whatever). will generate far less heat and still boost above 1.2 GHz.

I'll be experimenting with this next week when mine arrives. Running stupid amounts of power through these things is silly anyway. Power consumption scales exponentially with clock, and i want the battery to last longer anyway. So limiting clock through voltage limit will give both less heat/noise and better battery life too.

 

[magbarn]

(EDIT as noted by jgorman above didn't see until after posting this) Notebookcheck now has performance drop data for the 2020 MBA i5. About 12% drop after 25 Cinebench runs.

Their main complaint is about noise, even though the review also says "The fan behavior is also very similar to the predecessor...."

Just noticed their updates. These stand out:
“Furthermore, there is significant throttling in the 3DMark stress test (-20%).”

looks like the gpu is more heat or power limited than cpu with more throttling

“At around 30% CPU load (installation of OS updates), the fan is clearly audible and we are already above 40 dB(A), which is hard to understand considering the low performance level.”

so you’re right there’s Just barely enough cooling to keep at least the cpu from throttling significantly but due to lack of a heat pipe the fan is running full bore just at 30% usage. My mbp 16 gets louder under 100% load, but at 30% it has enough cooling to stay quiet

 

[mick2]

better solution than disabling boost entirely would be to lower the power limit. instead of letting it ramp up to 10 watts (or 20 or whatever), cap it at 8-9 (or 15 or whatever). will generate far less heat and still boost above 1.2 GHz.

I'll be experimenting with this next week when mine arrives. Running stupid amounts of power through these things is silly anyway. Power consumption scales exponentially with clock, and i want the battery to last longer anyway. So limiting clock through voltage limit will give both less heat/noise and better battery life too.

I did this with my Thinkpad t480s using the Throttlestop utility; rather than reducing the TDP wholesale I left it boosting as per stock for a max of 10s, then set a TDP limit to kick in only for sustained runs (>10s). I established this limit from testing diff settings on Cinebench (iirc it's at about 28w for sustained loads on a nominal 15w 8550u).

Result is chip now bursts to the max, but after 10s when temps start overwhelming the cooling it drops to a sustained level that the cooling system can cope with.

All this is possible with Thottlestop under Win10; not sure if anything equivalent exists for MacOS? Throttlestop runs entirely from userspace in 10Win; equivalent under MacOS would need kernel extensions which in turn means Apple notarisation, so unlikely...?