2022 Formula 1 Season thread

[Marty_Macfly]

Got a good Vid here from PW:
Cross Winds
Carlos could have won
Team orders
etc.
etc.

 

[CWallace]

Why is it that you guys feel that Max will run away with it ? Charles hammered him on Qualy this year , and they got the tire deg figured out for this week and it showed in the race , he was winning it EASILY without the engine failure.

As others have noted, if Max had reliable DRS in Q3 he might have taken Pole. And Pole at Spain has determined the victor 75% of the time as the track is notoriously hard to pass on (in part because the drivers and teams know it so well from all the testing done there).

So LeClerc storming off into the distance was likely a mix of good car and starting from Pole.

If you think Max will run away with it because Ferrari engines will keep blowing up , then that's a scenario that will of course be the end of Ferrari , but if we believe its a one off , as it tends to happen (mainly when its hot as it was) and get fixed , then I am far from losing hope , Charles will win Monaco barring an engine explosion.

The Ferrari PU looks to be more reliable than the Honda based on Failures to Date, but Red Bull, IMO, has the better design team so I expect as the season advances, Red Bull will have more upgrades and they will improve the overall performance of car more than Ferrari will be able to. So I don't think over the season LeClerc will be able to stay in touch with Max (to say nothing of Sainz vs. Perez).

Also that RedBull team orders were embarrassing for a team that berated Mercs for years , actually picking a **** startegy for Perez just to slow down a future leclerc pit , pitting him early in his stint , not letting him by Max when they knew they are going to pit Max soon and Max was stuck behind Russell and then telling him to let Max go instead of letting them race when he could've hold him back as Max DRS didnt work , embarrassing this early in the season , not to mention practicing a tow for Max in qualy it self .... Checo will not be winning any race where Max finishes next to him , he was SOOOO demoralized after the race , he said in the interview that he thinks he should've and would've won the race, not a good weekend for the intra team dynamics at all.

As others have noted, Team Orders have been part of the Championship since the beginning. Even when the FIA outlawed them for a time after the outrage of Austria 2002 the teams still managed to engage in team orders ("Alonso is faster than you.").

And considering Max has had two DNFs already, getting him every point possible is critical to him (and RBR) defending their WDC.

 

[Apple fanboy]

As others have noted, if Max had reliable DRS in Q3 he might have taken Pole. And Pole at Spain has determined the victor 75% of the time as the track is notoriously hard to pass on (in part because the drivers and teams know it so well from all the testing done there).

So LeClerc storming off into the distance was likely a mix of good car and starting from Pole.



The Ferrari PU looks to be more reliable than the Honda based on Failures to Date, but Red Bull, IMO, has the better design team so I expect as the season advances, Red Bull will have more upgrades and they will improve the overall performance of car more than Ferrari will be able to. So I don't think over the season LeClerc will be able to stay in touch with Max (to say nothing of Sainz vs. Perez).




As others have noted, Team Orders have been part of the Championship since the beginning. Even when the FIA outlawed them for a time after the outrage of Austria 2002 the teams still managed to engage in team orders ("Alonso is faster than you.").

And considering Max has had two DNFs already, getting him every point possible is critical to him (and RBR) defending their WDC.

Multi 21 Seb! If looks could kill Seb would have died that day.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Multi 21 Seb! If looks could kill Seb would have died that day.

‘I’m sure the team are happy with the result today’ (*slams glass on the table) - Mark Webber, Silverstone 2010

 

[Pezimak]

It can become a very difficult situation to manage. I know Mercedes allowed drivers to race in ‘14, ‘15 and ‘16 and by the time Nico won the title the situation had become very volatile with drivers barely on speaking terms. At McLaren in 2007 the team refused to employ team orders and we saw a team split down the middle with both sides of the garage in fierce competition with mechanics/colleagues barely speaking to each other. In the end they lost the title because of mismanagement and I think the whole paddock learned from that. Still, I think it can work as long as both drivers are aware they will be supported as long as they qualify better and maintain a better race pace. It starts to fall down when a team asks a driver to slow their pace in order for the other teammate to catch up like we’ve seen in recent seasons. I can why Perez and even Bottas and Danny Ric have been pee’d off.

Bottas has said he's never been happier in his life now! I think that says a lot about not being number 2 driver. I really hope he can match the Mercedes and challenge them.

 

[CWallace]

Multi 21 Seb! If looks could kill Seb would have died that day.

To be fair (or unfair, as the case may be), Seb was under orders to not pass and ignored them.

I expect there were no such orders given to Max.

 

[Phil77354]

Got a good Vid here from PW:
Cross Winds
Carlos could have won
Team orders
etc.
etc.

Great race discussion from Peter Windsor! I really miss that guy in the F1 broadcasts. I'll need to subscribe to his youtube channel or remember to look for his post race discussions. Thanks for posting that here.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Bottas has said he's never been happier in his life now! I think that says a lot about not being number 2 driver. I really hope he can match the Mercedes and challenge them.

In fairness to Bottas though he was always given the opportunity to challenge Lewis but he wasn’t consistent enough to be leading Mercedes and ultimately fell into the number 2 position more often than not. He’s now at a team where he’s the most experienced driver and has a bit more freedom I think.

 

[Pezimak]

Oh oh, I didn't notice this but this is why theirs controversy around the new Aston Martin, but the team that was fined by the FIA for copying the Mercedes design is possibly at it again, only the 'new' FIA has cleared them, for now, but to me this looks like convenient copying:

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

As long as I can remember teams have copied each other and poached personnel to get the competitive edge. There is usually a gardening leave period to stop certain individuals taking relevant knowledge to a rival team within a season. However, if IP is taken in physical or digital form like we saw between Ferrari and McLaren in 2007, that is cheating and punishable. It’s a bit sad if teams are no longer allowed to copy aero elements from each other and employ photographers to get intimate car details. Not sure what proof Red Bull have that Aston Martin have used IP? I know Christian employed several ex Mercedes engineers recently and is more than happy for them to bring their knowledge with them.

 

[pachyderm]

Oh oh, I didn't notice this but this is why theirs controversy around the new Aston Martin, but the team that was fined by the FIA for copying the Mercedes design is possibly at it again, only the 'new' FIA has cleared them, for now, but to me this looks like convenient copying:

The real difference is the actual race results ...?

 

[Pezimak]

As long as I can remember teams have copied each other and poached personnel to get the competitive edge. There is usually a gardening leave period to stop certain individuals taking relevant knowledge to a rival team within a season. However, if IP is taken in physical or digital form like we saw between Ferrari and McLaren in 2007, that is cheating and punishable. It’s a bit sad if teams are no longer allowed to copy aero elements from each other and employ photographers to get intimate car details. Not sure what proof Red Bull have that Aston Martin have used IP? I know Christian employed several ex Mercedes engineers recently and is more than happy for them to bring their knowledge with them.

It's an internal criminal investigation RB are performing, it's to check if any IP was stolen. But I have to say considering Aston was the pink team, and they were fined for copying Mercedes' design by the FIA, it is a bit suspicious. RB hired a lot of the engine specialists from Mercedes to help build their new engine. I am not sure how they are involved in the current cara development. I assume they are in some way, but I thought they weren't allowed to use the same ideas in another team? Could be wrong.

 

[Pezimak]

The real difference is the actual race results ...?

Isn't that the truth! They performed worst then with the old design.

 

[Marty_Macfly]

I am not usually a fan of Christian Horner.

However in this interview, he is bang on.

Not currently an issue for red bull at all, but it is really unfair for midfield teams, if other midfield teams are copying illegally the front runners hard work in design.

Hope the video helps

Martin

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

It's an internal criminal investigation RB are performing, it's to check if any IP was stolen. But I have to say considering Aston was the pink team, and they were fined for copying Mercedes' design by the FIA, it is a bit suspicious. RB hired a lot of the engine specialists from Mercedes to help build their new engine. I am not sure how they are involved in the current cara development. I assume they are in some way, but I thought they weren't allowed to use the same ideas in another team? Could be wrong.

There’s nothing to stop individuals using ideas within another team as long as it is transferred by memory. If Adrian Newey was to move to Mercedes and took his ideas with him, Red Bull could do nothing about it as long as he hadn’t taken digital copies of drawings and schematics etc.

 

[CWallace]

Considering how poorly the Aston's performed after bolting on their new parts, it seems that just cloning an aero design is not enough.

And to me, this makes perfect sense. RBR came to those designs based on hundreds of hours of wind-tunnel testing and likely (tens of) thousands of hours of CFD and they were part of a holistic approach to the entire chassis and tire combo and how they all interact together.

It's like those people who bolt those massive wings onto their front-wheel-drive cars pushing the rear down and raising the nose.

 

[NotTooLate]

As others have noted, if Max had reliable DRS in Q3 he might have taken Pole. And Pole at Spain has determined the victor 75% of the time as the track is notoriously hard to pass on (in part because the drivers and teams know it so well from all the testing done there).

So LeClerc storming off into the distance was likely a mix of good car and starting from Pole.



The Ferrari PU looks to be more reliable than the Honda based on Failures to Date, but Red Bull, IMO, has the better design team so I expect as the season advances, Red Bull will have more upgrades and they will improve the overall performance of car more than Ferrari will be able to. So I don't think over the season LeClerc will be able to stay in touch with Max (to say nothing of Sainz vs. Perez).




As others have noted, Team Orders have been part of the Championship since the beginning. Even when the FIA outlawed them for a time after the outrage of Austria 2002 the teams still managed to engage in team orders ("Alonso is faster than you.").

And considering Max has had two DNFs already, getting him every point possible is critical to him (and RBR) defending their WDC.

I dont see how he would've gotten pole , he was shocked about the gap when he asked "how much did he pip me by" as he thought it was a close one , he said (credit to him) " wow that's a lot" or something like that , there is no 3.5 tenths to find out of nowhere unless you make a mistake , Charles just didnt had a fast lap on new tires to show his pace , but that's what I believe , it could be that he would've done it.

Upgrades wise , the fact they are the minimum weight and were outpaced by Ferrari is encouraging , they cant get faster just on weight loss anymore , in a cost cap world I believe its an advantage for the weaker teams , they can focus on less upgrades and make sure they work , while the better engineering teams that used to do rapid development cycles are now hampered by cost cap , just imagine having more time to get an idea right vs having to get it right at the first time as it used to be in the development wars.

Team orders were always there no doubt ,it just stinks to have it done on the 6th race when you are 19 points behind and leading the race , its hard enough he didnt have the upgrades , its hard enough it needed to tow max in qualy , but going out of the way .... yikes , it cant be good for moral , it is what it is , I dont mind it , I also bet you that if Carlos is winning a race Ferrari will not get him to switch places with Charles unless its dip in the championship and there is a WDC at stake.

Cheers for the replies !!!

 

[CWallace]

I dont see how he would've gotten pole , he was shocked about the gap when he asked "how much did he pip me by" as he thought it was a close one , he said (credit to him) " wow that's a lot" or something like that , there is no 3.5 tenths to find out of nowhere unless you make a mistake , Charles just didnt had a fast lap on new tires to show his pace , but that's what I believe , it could be that he would've done it.

Max did not have DNS for his second run in Q3 and that clearly cost him time - especially considering how long the straight is at Barcelona. In the end, LeClerc might still have ended up on Pole, but the gap between them would have certainly been closer than it ended up being.

Upgrades wise , the fact they are the minimum weight and were outpaced by Ferrari is encouraging , they cant get faster just on weight loss anymore , in a cost cap world I believe its an advantage for the weaker teams , they can focus on less upgrades and make sure they work , while the better engineering teams that used to do rapid development cycles are now hampered by cost cap , just imagine having more time to get an idea right vs having to get it right at the first time as it used to be in the development wars.

The reduction in wind-tunnel and CFD time, however, means it is even more important that you maximize the time you are allowed. And I firmly believe RBR will make better use of that time than Ferrari and see more benefit.

I also bet you that if Carlos is winning a race Ferrari will not get him to switch places with Charles unless its dip in the championship and there is a WDC at stake.

You might want to ask Rubens Barrichello is thoughts on that.

 

[Phil77354]

There’s nothing to stop individuals using ideas within another team as long as it is transferred by memory. If Adrian Newey was to move to Mercedes and took his ideas with him, Red Bull could do nothing about it as long as he hadn’t taken digital copies of drawings and schematics etc.

Sorry but that is not correct.

Proprietary information is still protected and someone who leaves a company and goes to a competitor is still prohibited from using information retained from the previous job, if identified as proprietary. Even if it is just ‘by memory’.

It may be difficult to ‘police’, but if someone is working for a new company and on the same type of work, they have to take care to not disclose details of design, for example, that were used in their previous company but are proprietary to that company. If they do use that information and it can be shown that they did disclose it in their new work, then they are in violation of the agreement they would have made with their previous employer.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Sorry but that is not correct.

Proprietary information is still protected and someone who leaves a company and goes to a competitor is still prohibited from using information retained from the previous job, if identified as proprietary. Even if it is just ‘by memory’.

It may be difficult to ‘police’, but if someone is working for a new company and on the same type of work, they have to take care to not disclose details of design, for example, that were used in their previous company but are proprietary to that company. If they do use that information and it can be shown that they did disclose it in their new work, then they are in violation of the agreement they would have made with their previous employer.

Very hard to prove though. Especially when it comes to aero. All those slow motion shots and photos let everyone see what the others are up to.

 

[Phil77354]

Very hard to prove though. Especially when it comes to aero. All those slow motion shots and photos let everyone see what the others are up to.

Of course, no disagreement there.

But it is important to correct the impression that it is limited to physical or digital drawings or the like. Because it is not.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Sorry but that is not correct.

Proprietary information is still protected and someone who leaves a company and goes to a competitor is still prohibited from using information retained from the previous job, if identified as proprietary. Even if it is just ‘by memory’.

It may be difficult to ‘police’, but if someone is working for a new company and on the same type of work, they have to take care to not disclose details of design, for example, that were used in their previous company but are proprietary to that company. If they do use that information and it can be shown that they did disclose it in their new work, then they are in violation of the agreement they would have made with their previous employer.

Only if there is a patent protecting the designs in question. F1 moves too fast to patent components and systems and in my experience patents can take up to a year to grant. What I said was correct of course as you can’t stop people taking inspiration from a previous job to a new job.

 

[Phil77354]

Only if there is a patent protecting the designs in question. F1 moves too fast to patent components and systems and in my experience patents can take up to a year to grant. What I said was correct of course as you can’t stop people taking inspiration from a previous job to a new job.

Again, sorry, but it is not necessary to have something patented in order for it to be identified as proprietary. The company must identify it as such if in written form but this is separate from anything patented.

We are all playing armchair lawyer here but I can assure you this is correct. See for example the article linked below, which is quite good in describing how this works.

Proprietary Information

Successfully start, grow, innovate, and lead your business today: Ideas, resources, advice, support, tools, strategies, real stories, and real business examples. Visit https://inc.com. Subscribe to Inc. magazine. Attend Inc. events.

www.inc.com

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Again, sorry, but it is not necessary to have something patented in order for it to be identified as proprietary. The company must identify it as such if in written form but this is separate from anything patented.

We are all playing armchair lawyer here but I can assure you this is correct. See for example the article linked below, which is quite good in describing how this works.

Proprietary Information

Successfully start, grow, innovate, and lead your business today: Ideas, resources, advice, support, tools, strategies, real stories, and real business examples. Visit https://inc.com. Subscribe to Inc. magazine. Attend Inc. events.

www.inc.com

I’m going to agree to disagree on this point. I’ve worked in engineering long enough to understand how it works with all due respect. Very difficult to enforce these types of issues without proper legal protection and F1 is an R&D discipline that changes by the race. Engineers have always taken knowledge with them and always will.

 

[Pezimak]

There’s nothing to stop individuals using ideas within another team as long as it is transferred by memory. If Adrian Newey was to move to Mercedes and took his ideas with him, Red Bull could do nothing about it as long as he hadn’t taken digital copies of drawings and schematics etc.

That's very true, Horner said as much in the interview posted on here. It's the IP that's protected and as he says should be protected by the FIA.
Still it will be more interesting to see if Aston can make it work, it wasn't exactly a success there last race. The mid field this year seem to have come on hugely in their pace. Able to challenge the front teams if given the chance.