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CWallace

macrumors G5
Aug 17, 2007
12,538
11,565
Seattle, WA
The problem is not the cost cap itself, but how it is applied.. Toto Wollff said that as a result of accidents, there might be events they cannot attend as they have over spent... So my solution was that before the start of the season, every car has a "book" of parts and what each part costs to install on the vehicle.. To comply with the cost cap..

So in the case of a rebuild, an excel worksheet is produced with every nut, but, inch of carbon fibre, every doughnut and cup of coffee listed.. This should be submitted to the FIA insurance, and the FIA insurance pays back the costs...

That would costs tens to scores of millions per year and how does the FIA fund that? They've only collected $250,000 by fining the drivers for swearing and wearing jewelry. :p

Do they gut the CC payouts? And if they do, then the teams needs to seek more sponsorship money to cover that loss and that means keeping "the old timers" around because they bring in the big bucks, which is something you have consistently complained about.


To make the teams pay for parts, then pay again after a crash, and this comes out of the cost cap is totally wrong...

It incentivizes the teams and drivers to take care of the cars as they can either spend money developing the car or repairing it.


It should come out of FIA insurance... To promote racing, and to prevent the absence of teams from events due to over runs on the budget...Cars/teams withdrawn from events as a result of lack of funds..Do we want 6 car grids?

If a team like AMG Mercedes cannot properly budget a season, well that kind of explains why they're in the position they are, isn't it?
 
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JustinePaula

macrumors 6502a
Mar 14, 2012
840
431
It is like this, you have a something, say a car, it is insured... That insurance has to be insured, by a re-insurer, Llyods, and a few others, to insure F1 would cost pennies per race, the chance of a payout is low, so if they insure 20 cars, and 1 is damaged, they are out the cost of 1 car.. profit off the 19 that were not damaged..

My point is that the cost cap covers too much, it should only cover development and maintenance, accident damage during any on course event should be covered by 3rd party insurance, of which each team pays per car, and the FIA/Liberty/F1 pays as well..

The reason teams are hurting makes sense, it is no different to owning a car, and some drunk totals your car, and you have to pay all the expenses of towing 2 cars, two totaled cars, lawyers fees, and your insurance as well.. Why should Liberty benefit from the race, and have no expenses? Without cars, there is no race.. So to punish the teams, really explain how that is fair?
 

CWallace

macrumors G5
Aug 17, 2007
12,538
11,565
Seattle, WA
It is like this, you have a something, say a car, it is insured... That insurance has to be insured, by a re-insurer, Llyods, and a few others, to insure F1 would cost pennies per race, the chance of a payout is low, so if they insure 20 cars, and 1 is damaged, they are out the cost of 1 car.. profit off the 19 that were not damaged..

I am not in the insurance industry (my sister is, but it is maritime) but I expect those premiums are not going to be anywhere near "pennies" considering how much the components cost and the possibility of something like Monaco 2024 where multiple cars are totaled.

My point is that the cost cap covers too much, it should only cover development and maintenance, accident damage during any on course event should be covered by 3rd party insurance, of which each team pays per car, and the FIA/Liberty/F1 pays as well..

Then the cost cap needs to be lowered even more since the teams do not need to hold a contingency reserve for repairs.


The reason teams are hurting makes sense, it is no different to owning a car, and some drunk totals your car, and you have to pay all the expenses of towing 2 cars, two totaled cars, lawyers fees, and your insurance as well.. Why should Liberty benefit from the race, and have no expenses? Without cars, there is no race.. So to punish the teams, really explain how that is fair?

If personal car insurance was not a thing, then a prudent driver should set aside money to handle potential accident damage repairs - especially if they were routinely driving in situations where such accidents had a decently high probability of happening.

It should be no different for an F1 team, IMO, and the cost cap takes into account. Think of it as "self insurance", if you like.
 
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JustinePaula

macrumors 6502a
Mar 14, 2012
840
431
Then the cost cap needs to be lowered even more since the teams do not need to hold a contingency reserve for repairs.
No, as I explained, the cost cap should cover development, and regular service/upgrades, accidents should be a 3rd party cover, one of the reasons for having a cost cap is to give a $ value to each car, and each component on each car, so that teams are forced to stay within the budget..

Add to that accident cover, you run the risk of in year 2, after lessons learnt in year 1, we will not develop this or that, keep that money aside.. OK, you plan for retirement, but have a car accident, some drunk 19 yr old car thief, totals the car, so you use retirement money to replace the car..

The FIA/Liberty/F1 should offer insurance to cover replacement.. That ship Evergiven that blocked the Suez Canal, the re-insurance paid out what $800 million, to them, no issues, NONE.. why? They probably insure 100 000 ships a day, and how many cost them $800m in a payout, NONE!!! So to pay out once in a decade, is pennies on what they earn..

Same with F1, you have 20 cars, 24 races, 20 cars at what $50m per car, $100m x 24 races, $2.5billion.. But you are not destroying $2,5b worth of cars, you might have 5 cars totaled over the year..You are already in profit..

To insure that is almost not worth the effort, it is such a low value item, Apple probably has more insured shipping iphones from China to the US/Europe every month..

The point is, teams should cover certain costs, the employer, the risk.. In many jurisdictions, in order to host an event, or be open to the public, you need what is called slip/fall insurance.. public liability insurance, this covers costs for slips/falls, injuries that happen in a public access venue..It is mandatory, you could have 250 000 attend a sports event, and say the cover per person is $10, that is $2.5b in cover, the $10 is covered by the ticket price...

A person is injured, it costs nowhere near $2,5billion, maybe $25 000 even $100 000.. The insurance provider is laughing, pays out no question.. profit...

Here in 2024, you have the threat of a weakened event, a lack of cars due to accidents.. Costs that should be covered by the owner of the event.. It makes no sense to NOT insure, as you know going in the costs, the risk of accident is extremely low, we went how many races without a safety car? And even then, how many cars, 20x24 is 480 cars, and of the 480 cars, how many destroyed 100% of book value? Even at 20% that would be low..

Why do I say 480 cars? Each car is insured for each event then at the end of the event, the cover lapses.. So if you insure each car, and there is no damage/accident claim, the insurer wins, and so does the FIA/the teams and the fans who get to see 20 cars on the grid for the next event, next season..

To insure each car is not going to be all that expensive, it takes the burden off the 10 teams, who at this point technically self insure, which is expensive, as opined by Toto.. Self insuring is risky, and a bad investment...

Of course the muppets that run the teams/FIA/F1/Liberty, and the flocks of accountant/legal beagles all know way more than I do.. If course they have investigated and rejected this concept.. Maybe I am so far off the mark?? I accept that..

Why make the teams pay 3 times? Twice should be enough!!!
 
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cyb3rdud3

macrumors 601
Jun 22, 2014
4,117
2,799
UK
I think that what would be a decent change to the cost cap situation is that where another driver was at fault (using current regulations and this the penalty system) the driver naturally still gets the penalty but the team needs to pay the other team for the repair costs.

You know when you look at the nonsense of Russel being able to DNF another driver but only getting 5s when the other driver not only did not finish but is also saddled with big repair costs. Or like when Lewis took out Max, and so on.
 
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JustinePaula

macrumors 6502a
Mar 14, 2012
840
431
When you break it down, constructor points really pay for any loss due to accidents, and I am pretty sure it counts towards the cost cap, but it seems that somewhere, somehow someone has figured out the system, and playing the teams for fools.. Every other sport has insurance to cover accidents, but F1 teams have to cover all the costs of the car, under every circumstance.. Take the car on fire, a total write off, 100% total constructive hull loss.. The team has to rebuild a brand new car, and cover all the costs, out of a tiny budget, no help from anyone...That seems wrong...

One team paying another, no.. That cannot work, for a lot of legal reasons, you would have to sue for damages, in my proposal, McLaren would sue the FIA for damages, and the FIA insurer would pay out, there has to be a party liable for costs, it is how insurance works, what insurance does is get the insured party whole, back to where they were 1 second before the loss, not to enrich...

So the FIA would issue each car a book value, for example in aviation, commercial jets, come in pairs, one on paper, one the pilot flies, every report, repair, is recorded on the paper plane, so the same would be for F1 cars, each car is a once off car for each event, for purpose of insurance..

The car on paper has to be detailed to show $ value of every part, nut, bolt, screw, hose, tape, so that if there is damage during a live event, FP/Sprint Race, Race, this is outside of the control of the team, each part on the physical car that needs replacing is reflected in the paper car excel worksheet, and this cost is billed to the FIA insurance..

The teams pay and are reimbursed after each event, or every quarter, but the point is, teams are no longer carrying 3 costs, but only 2.. Some teams will not claim, but the actual loss is that for the insurer, and they suffer no loss.. No way in a season of 480 cars, will they pay out even a total hull loss once.. So why is this not mandatory? It makes sense.
 

JustinePaula

macrumors 6502a
Mar 14, 2012
840
431
I see 3 letters ahead, we know the 3 letters and what this has done to a certain walk ruined, LIV...
Like VAR, and in many regions VAT... How this ruins a product...
Yeah, it took this long, impressive, would have thought at least 15/20 yrs late, but as they say, better late than never..
RIP F1, 1950 t0 2024... You fought well..sometimes..
 

CWallace

macrumors G5
Aug 17, 2007
12,538
11,565
Seattle, WA
Alpine has announced a deal with Mercedes to provide power units and gearboxes starting with the 2026 season.

Aston Martin has announced that Dan Fallows will step down as Technical Director of the F1 team, though he will stay with the group.
 
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JustinePaula

macrumors 6502a
Mar 14, 2012
840
431
ok, so we are heading towards a 1 supplier formula... F2+ maybe instead of F1? Teams should develop own parts, or every part costs points per race loss.. Power units and gearboxes, basically 2/3rds of a car.. So that means Merc are running 2, 3, 4 teams?? Red Bull 2..
 

JustinePaula

macrumors 6502a
Mar 14, 2012
840
431
We are heading towards F2+, where all teams use the same power, the same brakes, tyres, fuel, and because physics is taught all over the world, the same aerodynamics, F1 will cease to exist as a viable formula.. With 2 or 3 engine suppliers, why not 2 or 3 tyre brands? F1 is on a slippery slope to become a 1 supplier formula.. F2+ F2 but with an extra 2% spice..
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,321
25,479
Wales, United Kingdom
We are heading towards F2+, where all teams use the same power, the same brakes, tyres, fuel, and because physics is taught all over the world, the same aerodynamics, F1 will cease to exist as a viable formula.. With 2 or 3 engine suppliers, why not 2 or 3 tyre brands? F1 is on a slippery slope to become a 1 supplier formula.. F2+ F2 but with an extra 2% spice..
You could allow teams unlimited budgets and scope on aerodynamics and we’d still end up with the same product. Single teams rise to the top and dominate. The sport has to be managed for the longevity of the grid, avoiding teams going bankrupt mid season like we used to see in the early 90’s and to make sure it fits as a development category for the automotive sector.
 
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JustinePaula

macrumors 6502a
Mar 14, 2012
840
431
Avoid the teams going bankrupt mid season? I wonder why that might very likely happen? If 1 or more teams end up in bankruptcy, who's fault is that? 2nd the cost cap automatically has the desired effect of reducing F1 to what is a better F2 but is not F1.. What we have now is F.95.. It is almost F1, but not...

The cost cap reduces evolution, it prevents investment, it prevents innovation, if it is combined with having to pay costs 3 times.... F1 is no longer F1, it is all but in name only, in reality it is a super F2 brand now...
 

The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,321
25,479
Wales, United Kingdom
Avoid the teams going bankrupt mid season? I wonder why that might very likely happen? If 1 or more teams end up in bankruptcy, who's fault is that? 2nd the cost cap automatically has the desired effect of reducing F1 to what is a better F2 but is not F1.. What we have now is F.95.. It is almost F1, but not...
It's usually down to smaller teams overspending to close performance gaps towards much richer teams who can commission qualifying tyres, fuel companies to develop bespoke mixes and charter jets to fly unlimited parts to race weekends etc. Hence why teams like Footwork Arrows, Lola, Larrousse, Dallara, Layton House and Ligier wound up in so much debt in the 90's and had to sell out.

The cost cap reduces evolution, it prevents investment, it prevents innovation, if it is combined with having to pay costs 3 times.... F1 is no longer F1, it is all but in name only, in reality it is a super F2 brand now...
Cost caps don't reduce evolution, they challenge designers and engineers to innovate within a tighter set of constraints. It is actually more impressive when a concept is realised this way, rather than throwing hundreds of millions at projects and employing hundreds of engineers.
 

pachyderm

macrumors G4
Jan 12, 2008
10,798
5,466
Smyrna, TN
It's usually down to smaller teams overspending to close performance gaps towards much richer teams who can commission qualifying tyres, fuel companies to develop bespoke mixes and charter jets to fly unlimited parts to race weekends etc. Hence why teams like Footwork Arrows, Lola, Larrousse, Dallara, Layton House and Ligier wound up in so much debt in the 90's and had to sell out.


Cost caps don't reduce evolution, they challenge designers and engineers to innovate within a tighter set of constraints. It is actually more impressive when a concept is realized this way, rather than throwing hundreds of millions at projects and employing hundreds of engineers.
Always has confounded me that the smaller teams couldn't find a way to work together on stuff like that.
 
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The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,321
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Wales, United Kingdom
Always has confounded me that the smaller teams couldn't find a way to work together on stuff like that.
Probably because they were all scrapping over the last of the constructors money should any of them score points. It became pointless for these teams to participate in the end and sponsorship ceased due to very little TV time. When McLaren started producing ECU's and engines were frozen to stop customer engines being older tech, we started seeing the grid close up a bit and the racing improved. So many fans have this romantic view of 30+ years ago with the Mansell's and Senna's dominating, but in reality backmarkers were often 10 seconds a lap slower on tiny budgets and faloing to the trackside through unreliability. F1 is in a better state now in terms of performance and competiton but as with anything, the best people generally design the best cars, big budget or not.
 

Glideslope

macrumors G3
Dec 7, 2007
8,331
5,791
The Adirondacks.
Aston Martin has announced that Dan Fallows will step down as Technical Director of the F1 team, though he will stay with the group.

Adrian engaged in housekeeping while gardening…
 
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Pezimak

macrumors 68040
May 1, 2021
3,463
3,864
I'm up to the Austrian GP now, what....the.....hell.....was......that? In my eyes Lando was in the clear, Max drove like a right ******** and pushed Lando off and Lando gets a penalty?? And then Max blocks Lando whilst he has a puncture!! Sorry Max needs some serious points in his licence for that one.

I can see as I watch more it's dirty games on to dictate the winner... but in Austria Max was a VERY dirty driver.
 
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pachyderm

macrumors G4
Jan 12, 2008
10,798
5,466
Smyrna, TN
I'm up to the Austrian GP now, what....the.....hell.....was......that? In my eyes Lando was in the clear, Max drove like a right ******** and pushed Lando off and Lando gets a penalty?? And then Max blocks Lando whilst he has a puncture!! Sorry Max needs some serious points in his licence for that one.

I can see as I watch more it's dirty games on to dictate the winner... but in Austria Max was a VERY dirty driver.
OIP.9pasrFxY2qj9VpGCMiGxCAAAAA
 
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