Android in Decline?

[The-Real-Deal82]

If you scroll over his avatar you can see he is from Wales.

But a proud Englishman too

 

[Blue Quark]

Hey hallux, ian87w, The-Real-Deal82, iHorseHead, et al:

There are some serious differences between the so-called Android Ecosystem Fragmentation, and updates in other ecosystems such as Windows, macOS, and iOS.

3rd party makers of Android OS-running phones have classically just built hardware and sold it in very much a "fire and forget" sort of way. Generally (though there are exceptions) these companies don't "care" per-se if someone else takes time and effort to update their hardware for the people who bought it from them; it's more a matter of they don't want to engage in any expense that they don't absolutely have to. They all stand upon the coat-tails of Alphabet. Now, over the years there's been some blowback over this, so these various companies do feel at least some obligation to do a bit better of a job. However, the story (as far as I'm aware) is still pretty awful when you're talking about budget phones, and especially budget phones sold through carriers.

If it were up to me, I would take a much more Linux/Windows approach to the writing of system components, in that the phone sellers would not have to be a part of the process where OS updates are concerned. The only reason one would not be able to get any further updates for a phone is that the hardware would simply become too obsolete to be supported. I don't view this as an issue in the business sense (particularly not for Alphabet) on the basis that they are continually writing both component- as well as dot-release updates anyhow, regardless of whether or not a given phone seller bothers to pass them along to phone owners. Maybe Alphabet's development-and-compiling process would have to change a little bit, but this would completely take the sellers out of the loop, and it would completely end the fragmentation issue.

Also, I would not allow any sort of filtering or blocking of the Android app store. This way, if a carrier wants to put out their own Phone or SMS app (for example) they're free to do so, but if a user would rather use Google's own software, they wouldn't find that they couldn't even search for it as a replacement (as is the case today). There would be no inability to turn on USB file sharing mode to allow full MTP access to the phone, as is also the case today. If you want to make money as a seller of Android phones and/or tablets, that's fine. If you want to do your own customizations, fine. But either your phone is fully unrestricted for the user, or you don't get to make the device. Period.

 

[nickdalzell1]

nearly bought combo samsung phone and watch but when they said bp apps only work with high price samsung phone , abandon the idea. now xr + apple watch.

It doesn't exactly depend on having the expensive phone so much as the same generation of phone. My Galaxy Watch (2018) can pair with, and work with a Galaxy S5 from 2014, and while apps such as Bixby work on the watch, many functions will be severely gimped or not work at all. My Samsung Gear 2 (2014) is fully functional when paired with a Samsung Galaxy S5 from the same year, but just a phone such as the Galaxy S4 from 2013 (literally one year earlier) you can't even use S-Voice on the watch.

I just got a Samsung Galaxy Watch 3, and it is more fully functional with my S20 FE than the 2018 version, which had certain parts of Bixby broken, and problems syncing certain things in Samsung Health, and that's just a two-year difference. (For one, the watch Health data was always in Metric, even with the Units setting to Imperial for everything).

So in reality they all work pretty seamless (like Apple) if you ensure your devices are literally the same year. Certain features of Samsung watches won't work at all on non-Samsung hardware such as Email and Messages. So they really want you buying into their ecosystem worse than Apple, and if you dare upgrade, you probably have to pay a lot to upgrade every device (watch, buds and phone) just to ensure 100% compatibility.

 

[hallux]

If it were up to me, I would take a much more Linux/Windows approach to the writing of system components, in that the phone sellers would not have to be a part of the process where OS updates are concerned. The only reason one would not be able to get any further updates for a phone is that the hardware would simply become too obsolete to be supported. I don't view this as an issue in the business sense (particularly not for Alphabet) on the basis that they are continually writing both component- as well as dot-release updates anyhow, regardless of whether or not a given phone seller bothers to pass them along to phone owners. Maybe Alphabet's development-and-compiling process would have to change a little bit, but this would completely take the sellers out of the loop, and it would completely end the fragmentation issue.

There is movement in this direction. Google/Android is trying to decouple the manufacturer 'stuff' to allow for the core OS to be updated on a more reliable basis. Of course - the manufacturer 'stuff' is still the issue as those overlays need to be tested for compatibility before the devices can be allowed to be updated, and we're back to square one. Allowing a manufacturer to make changes to the core OS as they do (down to how the Settings screens operate) means that the manufacturer NEEDS to test those changes against any OS update so you're still handcuffed by the manufacturer of the device.

 

[nickdalzell1]

Well, I for one don't care for updates. I was burned by iOS 7 so I basically disable all updates (including going so far as to use a VPN app to disable internet checks for updates, kill Google Services (nets tons of battery doing so) and blocking the servers at the router, editing HOSTS, etc) to avoid the software equivilent of 're-arranging the aisles at Walmart'. Always hate my muscle memory being deleted all the time--especially with Google apps.

Also, I like device differentiation. I love how Samsung has their own identity with their skin (and far more features than bare bones stock--including being years ahead of Google in getting features such as multi-window, pop-out view, notification badges, etc) and I even miss Motoblur. I like devices being designed with a unique UI that fits the target user of said device. If they all ran the same everything there'd be hardly any uniqueness at all and any themes would literally be skin deep, especially regarding the death of root for a lot of phones, Safetynet, lack of Xposed, etc. I don't like dumbing down, depending on the 'cloud', or the OEM dictating what apps I should use.

I've always appreciated Samsung and even carriers preloading apps to save trips to the Play Store when setting up a new phone (which can take hours!) and I love having a choice over which SMS app, which browser, or which photo gallery I can use, no install, no app store needed. I love devices ready to go with most used apps included. Choice is a good thing. Samsung's apps tend to be far more feature-rich and useful IMO than Google's. Also, they don't die untimely deaths like Google apps do.

And, I certainly don't want to see the Google version of BlackBerry Internet Services (BIS) which is dead now, thus rendering still-operable BlackBerry 10 devices unable to even do basic things like browse the Web, or use MMS. Same thing happened to the iconic T-Mobile Sidekick when Danger shut the servers down.

If we depended more on the 'cloud' or updates being forced without a recourse, our devices end up disposable, slow down with time, and can even be totally gimped in the future if the servers get shut down. I for one appreciate the confidence my music ain't going anywhere if the Internet dies, or the cellular carrier experiences an outage, and all my files and photos also don't vanish. In rural Kentucky we still don't got 4G LTE so many places I hike if not for the local storage or SD card, I'd be without my music, or my workout data, or my ability to store photos.

 

[ian87w]

There is movement in this direction. Google/Android is trying to decouple the manufacturer 'stuff' to allow for the core OS to be updated on a more reliable basis. Of course - the manufacturer 'stuff' is still the issue as those overlays need to be tested for compatibility before the devices can be allowed to be updated, and we're back to square one. Allowing a manufacturer to make changes to the core OS as they do (down to how the Settings screens operate) means that the manufacturer NEEDS to test those changes against any OS update so you're still handcuffed by the manufacturer of the device.

The core OS itself is less and less important imo. Eg. Google managed to push Nearby Sharing to all Android as far back as Android 6 phones. Besides, Android has matured enough that every new Android version don't really bring a huge underlying change.

What is bothersome is security patches. Google has made it easy that these patches can be applied outside of the main OS update. Older Androids can still be up-to-date in security patches. Google even gave these patches to OEMs a month in advance. But the OEMs just don't care. They're all just still racing to the bottom, only interested in selling you a new phone every 6 months. As a consumer, I no longer care if a Vivo phone have the best camera ever, since it won't even get updates for more than a year or 2. It's even more outrageous that these OEMs are trying to sell you $1000 phones now. These OEMs pretty much made youtubers as their only customer segment, as only youtubers would be interested in new phones every other month.

Samsung has become the only sensible Android OEM imo as they at least provide 3 years of OS support.

 

[ian87w]

Hey hallux, ian87w, The-Real-Deal82, iHorseHead, et al:

There are some serious differences between the so-called Android Ecosystem Fragmentation, and updates in other ecosystems such as Windows, macOS, and iOS.

3rd party makers of Android OS-running phones have classically just built hardware and sold it in very much a "fire and forget" sort of way. Generally (though there are exceptions) these companies don't "care" per-se if someone else takes time and effort to update their hardware for the people who bought it from them; it's more a matter of they don't want to engage in any expense that they don't absolutely have to. They all stand upon the coat-tails of Alphabet. Now, over the years there's been some blowback over this, so these various companies do feel at least some obligation to do a bit better of a job. However, the story (as far as I'm aware) is still pretty awful when you're talking about budget phones, and especially budget phones sold through carriers.

If it were up to me, I would take a much more Linux/Windows approach to the writing of system components, in that the phone sellers would not have to be a part of the process where OS updates are concerned. The only reason one would not be able to get any further updates for a phone is that the hardware would simply become too obsolete to be supported. I don't view this as an issue in the business sense (particularly not for Alphabet) on the basis that they are continually writing both component- as well as dot-release updates anyhow, regardless of whether or not a given phone seller bothers to pass them along to phone owners. Maybe Alphabet's development-and-compiling process would have to change a little bit, but this would completely take the sellers out of the loop, and it would completely end the fragmentation issue.

Also, I would not allow any sort of filtering or blocking of the Android app store. This way, if a carrier wants to put out their own Phone or SMS app (for example) they're free to do so, but if a user would rather use Google's own software, they wouldn't find that they couldn't even search for it as a replacement (as is the case today). There would be no inability to turn on USB file sharing mode to allow full MTP access to the phone, as is also the case today. If you want to make money as a seller of Android phones and/or tablets, that's fine. If you want to do your own customizations, fine. But either your phone is fully unrestricted for the user, or you don't get to make the device. Period.

The ship has sailed my friend. When the first iPhone was announced, it was groundbreaking in the US as it's the first time a phone that is not controlled by the carrier. Google came to the rescue of the "poor" carriers with Android, with the freedom letting OEMs can carriers do whatever they want with it, bundling their own software, etc. There was Microsoft with Windows Phone, trying to be the middle ground, but it failed, and the ship has sailed.

Luckily, this is mostly a US problem. Outside the US, especially in Asia (Japan is exception), carriers are totally separate than the phones. It's already the norm that people buy their phones and carriers separately.

So at this point, there's no point in lamenting how Android platform should've been.

I do agree that most Android OEMs are still in the mindset of making and selling new phones as often as possible, the business model of feature phones of the old. They piled on fancy features on their phones to the point of them actually being great phones hardware wise, but zero care is taken with the software. Luckily there's Samsung who at least start to put a different hat in OS support.

Having said that, the smartphone market in the emerging markets is still growing. There are still many people who are getting their first smartphones. This is why these Chinese OEMs can still thrive, selling cheap phones with no software support.

 

[Shanghaichica]

The core OS itself is less and less important imo. Eg. Google managed to push Nearby Sharing to all Android as far back as Android 6 phones. Besides, Android has matured enough that every new Android version don't really bring a huge underlying change.

What is bothersome is security patches. Google has made it easy that these patches can be applied outside of the main OS update. Older Androids can still be up-to-date in security patches. Google even gave these patches to OEMs a month in advance. But the OEMs just don't care. They're all just still racing to the bottom, only interested in selling you a new phone every 6 months. As a consumer, I no longer care if a Vivo phone have the best camera ever, since it won't even get updates for more than a year or 2. It's even more outrageous that these OEMs are trying to sell you $1000 phones now. These OEMs pretty much made youtubers as their only customer segment, as only youtubers would be interested in new phones every other month.

Samsung has become the only sensible Android OEM imo as they at least provide 3 years of OS support.

And 4 years of security updates. My S21 ultra will be supported with OS updates until 2024 and security updates until 2025. That's good enough for me as I wouldn't keep a phone longer than that.

 

[Shanghaichica]

iphones might get updated for longer but apps on the app store don't support devices with older versions of the OS for long. There are already apps that are asking for ios 13, which means the device must be from 2015 or later. ios 13 only came out in 2019. On android most apps can still run on devices running kitkat or lollipop. Which came out in 2013 and 2014 respectively. I've never had any app compatibility issues with my note 4 or nexus 7 2013, both of which are only running Marshmallow.

 

[Shanghaichica]

iphones might get updated for longer but apps on the app store don't support devices with older versions of the OS for long. There There are already apps that are asking for ios 13, which means the device must be from 2015 or later. ios 13 only came out in 2019. DOn android most apps can still run on devices running kitkat or lollipop. Which came out in 2013 and 2014 respectively. I've never had any app compatibility issues with my note 4 or nexus 7 2013, both of which are only running Marshmallow.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I love my Galaxy Watch, too. It has sorta 'activity rings' in a heart shape, one for exercise, move and calories. Works pretty much the same, but unlike the Apple Watch, any 'special' achievements don't vanish a few months after you earn them. Soon as my Earth Day achievement disappeared in May, I had enough. My May "Lavender" badge from my Galaxy Watch shows no sign of vanishing anytime soon!

Yep I’d never swap my Apple Watch for any other smart watch as long as it’s as good as it is. Love the design and the integration it offers

 

[luckypiglive]

Have you all noticed that Android seems to have been in decline over the past couple years, or is it just the fact that I’ve been paying less attention? By decline, I don’t mean that the software is getting worse, it just seems to have lost its competitive edge compared to Apple.

For years up to a couple years ago, it seemed like iOS and Android would be neck all the time. Android was heralded for its freedom of choice. But over time, it’s become more like iOS being more restrictive while iOS has slowly been gaining more freedoms.

Samsung was always the one to release the best hardware you could ask for in a device and usually at a really good price. But now they introduced products like the recent Note that simply doesn’t live up to its history of being insane everything-you-could-ask-for hardware at a good price and charges a ridiculous amount for a cheaper product.

Pixels used to be known for their cameras, but iPhone and other phones caught up, Google hasn’t really improved much with the cameras since the Pixel 2 or 3. Google has stopped trying to compete with Apple by going to a non-flagship processor. Their marketing also seems to have died down.

A lot of Android phones copied things they made fun of the iPhone for and things Android enthusiasts loathed (removal of the headphone jack, notch, no charger in the box).

There seem to be less value in Android anymore. For instance, pretty much every phone OnePlus released was an instant recommendation for someone who wanted a flagship for less money. Now, they’re basically just another flagship but at a lower quality for a similar price. Even their “value” phones are no longer instant recommendations anymore.

iOS seems to be innovating while Google is not. For example, privacy standards. Android used to always be in the news for all of their innovation and features that iOS doesn’t have. I can’t remember the last time I heard Android news about a new big feature. Maybe it was that feature from like 2018 where Google Assistant could schedule an appointment over the phone with you.

It just seems like iPhone has gained mostly all of the features that Android had that it didn’t while also providing more value for the money while Androids have gotten more expensive while also becoming worse products. iPhone also pretty much has a phone at every price now too compared to in the past when they really were known for being only the premium expensive product. It’s hard to compete with iPhones in every price range with incredible software support and updates, customer service, solid hardware, and reliability.

Yeah, I know there are a lot of good phones out there and Android dominates with market share across the world overall. And for a lot of people, it’s good enough and they’re able to find a phone they’re happy with. I also know mobile phones have become a mature product. But from an enthusiast standpoint, I’m not crazy right? Android has been declining over the past few years right? Or am I just not paying enough attention?

no you are not crazy. its been a long time since there is something great. however, I think in general there is not something "big" going on. I think the market is stable somehow.

 

[Mellofello808]

The s21 ultra is the best phone on the market.

10x optical zoom, all the bells and whistles, Dex mode, best screen, crazy battery life, 120hz, clean software, with freedom to choose.

I use a iPhone every day, and there is absolutely no way I would switch back to iOS. Each year I get more frustrated at the artificial limitations, and road blocks they throw up.

It isn't cheap but neither is the IPhone 12 pro max.

I do like the privacy stuff that apple is doing, but it certainly isn't enough for me to look past all the benefits of Android.

Phones in general have reached commodity status. The only real leap will be moving to a new form factor, which Samsung is doing, by blazing trails on foldables. Apple isnt even rumored to have a folding phone in the pipeline. They are happy with their slow iterations, and slowly poaching features android has had for years.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

The s21 ultra is the best phone on the market.

10x optical zoom, all the bells and whistles, Dex mode, best screen, crazy battery life, 120hz, clean software, with freedom to choose.

I use a iPhone every day, and there is absolutely no way I would switch back to iOS. Each year I get more frustrated at the artificial limitations, and road blocks they throw up.

It isn't cheap but neither is the IPhone 12 pro max.

I do like the privacy stuff that apple is doing, but it certainly isn't enough for me to look past all the benefits of Android.

Phones in general have reached commodity status. The only real leap will be moving to a new form factor, which Samsung is doing, by blazing trails on foldables. Apple isnt even rumored to have a folding phone in the pipeline. They are happy with their slow iterations, and slowly poaching features android has had for years.

I think we’ve reached a point where we all know what we want and expect from a smartphone. They are just essential everyday devices now and unless you are super into tech, I think both platforms offer enough for the average user. It’s cool to see that Samsung are exploring the more radical innovations. I personally have absolutely no interest in ever owning another phone that folds in half though and was happy those days were behind us, but appreciate there may be a demand for this sort of thing, especially for those who don’t want an additional tablet.

 

[LFC2020]

The s21 ultra is the best phone on the market.

Massive call, disagree.

A phone with such a big battery that is getting very poor battery life, still having camera issues, leaving customers not happy with the camera and battery life.

Once again specs mean nothing, Samsung can have all the specs in the world, means nothing if you can’t get them specs to perform properly.

 

[sfrangu]

Massive call, disagree.

A phone with such a big battery that is getting very poor battery life, still having camera issues, leaving customers not happy with the camera and battery life.

Once again specs mean nothing, Samsung can have all the specs in the world, means nothing if you can’t get them specs to perform properly.

View attachment 1795550

Not to memtion their subpar customer service. Oh my!! Just had to do with them….

 

[LFC2020]

Not to memtion their subpar customer service. Oh my!! Just had to do with them….

Yep, it’s night and day when it comes to customer service between apple and Samsung. Sent back my magic keyboard after using it for a few days, didn’t even leave my house, courier picked it up from my house free of charge. ?

Until Samsung stops focusing on gimmicks, 108 megapixel camera, 100x space zoom ?‍♂️ declutters their OS, gets a decent camera without shutter lag that performs consistently 24/7, they will continue to be the same old Samsung.

The S21 Ultra doesn’t even come close to the top dog iPhone 12 Pro Max when it comes to performance, consistency, longevity and battery life.

 

[iHorseHead]

Yep, it’s night and day when it comes to customer service between apple and Samsung. Sent back my magic keyboard after using it for a few days, didn’t even leave my house, courier picked it up from my house free of charge. ?

Until Samsung stops focusing on gimmicks, 108 megapixel camera, 100x space zoom ?‍♂️ declutters their OS, gets a decent camera without shutter lag that performs consistently 24/7, they will continue to be the same old Samsung.

The S21 Ultra doesn’t even come close to the top dog iPhone 12 Pro Max when it comes to performance, consistency, longevity and battery life.

Samsung will never get rid of the clutter in their OS. They're trying to create their own ecosystem, just like Huawei, but Huawei has less clutter. I know Huawei gets a lot of hate, but at one point their phones were really good and had iOS like experience (in Android 5-6 at least). I wonder if Apple sued them or something, because you dont get that iPhone 'feeling' anymore.
My friend has some old Samsung device from 2018 and it's fully up to date and pretty fast. On Android devices it really comes down to luck in what you're getting.
In my country Samsung has pretty good customer service, unlike Sony. I know it's a bit of off topic, but anyone reading this and considering Android - Don't buy Sony smartphones.

 

[ian87w]

And 4 years of security updates. My S21 ultra will be supported with OS updates until 2024 and security updates until 2025. That's good enough for me as I wouldn't keep a phone longer than that.

Although Samsung made good promises for at least 3 years, I wouldn't be counting on 2024 (4th year), let alone 2025. The S9/S9+ has been relegated to only quarterly security updates, so I'd expect similar treatment.

But at least Samsung is being transparent about it, thus people can have informed decision. Plus, they always have trade-in deals and promos, making it frictionless to upgrade to their latest handsets. So my vote is still for Samsung. The other OEMs refuse to even provide a clear roadmap on their OS updates, and only push security patches at random basis.

 

[LFC2020]

Samsung will never get rid of the clutter in their OS. They're trying to create their own ecosystem

then they will continue to fail, their sales have been very ordinary the last couple of years, while iPhones have been smashing it when it comes to sales.

 

[Shanghaichica]

Although Samsung made good promises for at least 3 years, I wouldn't be counting on 2024 (4th year), let alone 2025. The S9/S9+ has been relegated to only quarterly security updates, so I'd expect similar treatment.

But at least Samsung is being transparent about it, thus people can have informed decision. Plus, they always have trade-in deals and promos, making it frictionless to upgrade to their latest handsets. So my vote is still for Samsung. The other OEMs refuse to even provide a clear roadmap on their OS updates, and only push security patches at random basis.

Quarterly security updates are still security updates. My husband's note 8 is still getting security updates now, albeit quarterly updates. It will be 4 years old in September. So even before the pledge samsung were giving 4 years of security updates. The S8 also got 4 years as did the S7 line. I believe they will give the third OS update in 2024 and the security updates will continue until the end of February 2025.

 

[alien3dx]

View attachment 1795565

shall be mention it might be one country .hehee. as developer this mean nothing.

 

[iHorseHead]

Although Samsung made good promises for at least 3 years, I wouldn't be counting on 2024 (4th year), let alone 2025. The S9/S9+ has been relegated to only quarterly security updates, so I'd expect similar treatment.

But at least Samsung is being transparent about it, thus people can have informed decision. Plus, they always have trade-in deals and promos, making it frictionless to upgrade to their latest handsets. So my vote is still for Samsung. The other OEMs refuse to even provide a clear roadmap on their OS updates, and only push security patches at random basis.

Even midrange Samsung devices get 3 OS upgrades + 2 years of security updates.

 

[LFC2020]

shall be mention it might be one country .hehee. as developer this mean nothing.

Nope, people are starting to wake up, they don’t want gimmicks and issues anymore, they want a phone that works consistently 24/7 that has the best software, eco system, App Store, great customer support and service and so on.

That is why iPhone is dominating sales around the world. ?

 

[ian87w]

Not to memtion their subpar customer service. Oh my!! Just had to do with them….

It depends.

In my country, Apple has no official presence, only relying on their official distributors and authorised service centres. And boy these people has zero interest in supporting customers, they are only interested in selling you stuff. Apple doesn't seem to care much about Indonesia.

Meanwhile, Samsung has actual official presence (they have factories in Indonesia, with our local Galaxy S phones made locally), and actual Samsung Experience stores.