Anyone else feel like they are forced to upgrade

[ApplesAreSweet&Sour]

I have a 2017 15" MacBook Pro. I use it as my primary computing device and outside of the crappy keyboard it's been working for me. I've had AppleCare+ on it since getting it in 2018. With Apple dropping MacOS support for previous MacBook Pro models, I feel like this model is next to be dropped come this WWDC. I know Apple typically provides security updates for older MacOS versions for 2 additional years but its an unwritten policy and could change. I hate how Apple isn't upfront about the minimum amount of years they'll provide security updates for their OS releases.

Last thing I want to do is be running insecure software on a computer I use for online banking and bill paying. I got plenty of devices so I don't feel like buying a new one, but I feel like I should go ahead and just upgrade. I don't really need the power that a 14/16" MacBook Pro offers, so a MacBook Air or 13" Pro would be fine. But I feel like the one I have is fine for my needs and would continue to work (outside of the horrible keyboard and the fact I have to get it replaced at least once every year with AppleCare when keys get stuck).

Not sure if anyone else feels this way.

I suggest doing most of your online banking on your iPhone or iPad.

Like, if you don’t feel secure doing that stuff on a desktop that hasn’t received security updates then an iPhone on the latest iOS or latest security update should be sufficient.

If your bank doesn’t have a dedicated app for your smartphone with many features and frequent updates then maybe I’d move my money before upgrading my computer.

I get that they’re maybe limitations and maybe your online banking services aren’t good on mobile. Idk. 🤷‍♂️

There many solutions to this issue. But you are definitely not forced to get a new MacBook, not until Apple has anctually announced the OS that makes your MacBook a legacy device.

 

[fromgophonetoiphone]

I suggest doing most of your online banking on your iPhone or iPad.

Like, if you don’t feel secure doing that stuff on a desktop that hasn’t received security updates then an iPhone on the latest iOS or latest security update should be sufficient.

If your bank doesn’t have a dedicated app for your smartphone with many features and frequent updates then maybe I’d move my money before upgrading my computer.

I get that they’re maybe limitations and maybe your online banking services aren’t good on mobile. Idk. 🤷‍♂️

There many solutions to this issue. But you are definitely not forced to get a new MacBook, not until Apple has anctually announced the OS that makes your MacBook a legacy device.

If you're going to the main banking website, the risk is low though. Security updates should still be coming through and Safari still gets updates. You could alternatively also use Firefox/Chrome if you feel that their browser updates are more important.

Honestly, people visiting bankofamerica.com aren't the ones getting compromised. It's the ones going to fake links and clicking on phishy links that are getting in trouble.

I also think the risk in banking in general is pretty low. Because of KYC/AML, etc someone can't simply log into your bank account, send money out and expect to get away which is why almost all scams involving money use out of band transfers. Advance fee scams like fake check scams use a fake scam but expect a payment back. That's not the same as sending actual funds and then getting money back because the check is fake to begin with. Scams involving fake goods separate the "goods" (fake) from the payment (Venmo).

 

[G5isAlive]

I upgrade when I want to, why I want to. Never once has anyone held a gun to my head and forced me.

Apple isn't forcing you, sounds like your internal thought processes are.

 

[ricketysquire]

Your MBP will likely be fully supported by OpenCore Legacy Patcher for a good few years after Apple drops official support. If you're still happy with your machine there is no need to throw it away just yet.

I actually played around with OpenCore Legacy Patcher this weekend on my Unibody 2012 MacBook Pro. Updates stopped at Catalina for it. It ran Monterey pretty well and I upgraded it to Ventura without issue, but performance didn't feel as strong. But still it's nice I can run newer OSes on it. It's essentially relegated to backup MacBook Pro duties whenever my 2017 MacBook Pro is getting repaired.

I just have some concerns about running a third party patcher from a security perspective. I know OpenCore is completely open source, but maybe Im just paranoid.

 

[ricketysquire]

Sorry, but your MBP had a terrible keyboard.

I agree. The last time it got repaired, they replaced the keycap on the affected key. But when I got the laptop back, I found another key had gotten stuck. So then I had to go back to the Apple Store and then they finally replaced the entire keyboard with a top case replacement. I literally have to make sure to keep a bottle of compressed air at home, specifically for this laptop.

 

[MallardDuck]

I have a 2017 15" MacBook Pro. I use it as my primary computing device and outside of the crappy keyboard it's been working for me. I've had AppleCare+ on it since getting it in 2018. With Apple dropping MacOS support for previous MacBook Pro models, I feel like this model is next to be dropped come this WWDC. I know Apple typically provides security updates for older MacOS versions for 2 additional years but its an unwritten policy and could change. I hate how Apple isn't upfront about the minimum amount of years they'll provide security updates for their OS releases.

Last thing I want to do is be running insecure software on a computer I use for online banking and bill paying. I got plenty of devices so I don't feel like buying a new one, but I feel like I should go ahead and just upgrade. I don't really need the power that a 14/16" MacBook Pro offers, so a MacBook Air or 13" Pro would be fine. But I feel like the one I have is fine for my needs and would continue to work (outside of the horrible keyboard and the fact I have to get it replaced at least once every year with AppleCare when keys get stuck).

Not sure if anyone else feels this way.

That policy did change. They now explicitly state that they will only provide full support for the current version. Other version may get support at their discretion (we have seen some fixes not backported from ventura already).

Your instinct is correct. N-1 is probably safe (especially until the .2 or .3 comes out), but older than that, yeah, it is a forced upgrade to remain current and patched.

Specific CPU and GPU features seem to be the trigger for support. However, for Intel machines, I suspect Apple's not doing any serious innovation there anymore, so older hardware may linger longer than in the past.

To be fair though, any of the current machines is going to be amazing when you do upgrade. As long as you don't need intel specific support (e.g. x86 virtual machines), upgrade when you can.

 

[Basic75]

This level of support is the best in the PC industry.

Linux.

 

[bollman]

Mac hardware becomes vintage 5 years from the date they are last sold. After 7 years they become obsolete per Apple.

So your 2017 15" is already vintage and will probably go obsolete in 2024/2025.

Apple supports free upgrades to new Mac OS versions when announced and typically supports upgrades to current Apple products. Current Apple products are less than 5 years from date last sold. Sometimes they will slip a vintage into an upgrade.

Apple supports security fixes on the latest 3 Mac OSs. So you will probably be able to get security fixes for your Mac for 8-10 years. You won't get the latest OS version but will still get security updates.

You should be good until 2027 from a security standpoint.

This level of support is the best in the PC industry.

About software updates for Apple devices

Before you begin to manage software updates and upgrades, understand how Apple handles the process.

support.apple.com

"Note: Because of dependency on architecture and system changes to any current version of macOS (for example, macOS 13), not all known security issues are addressed in previous versions (for example, macOS 12)."

 

[OneBar]

That is a good point, and well said.

I think the reality is; the PC that I built in 2013 still runs well for all intents and purposes AND still gets security and Windows updates. Sure, many of the drivers haven't been touched in five years, but it still functions flawlessly.

Apple simply shuts out those computers from receiving any sort of support. A 2013 iMac, in comparison, is insecure and has been shut out from updates completely.

You mean like how I can't upgrade to Windows 11 because my pc was built in 2015? Windows 11 doesn't support vintage hardware anymore than macOS does. MS does the exact same thing.

 

[MallardDuck]

You mean like how I can't upgrade to Windows 11 because my pc was built in 2015? Windows 11 doesn't support vintage hardware anymore than macOS does. MS does the exact same thing.

Yup, they do now. They didn't used to, but that's changed with Win 11.

And all those Windows 10 machines will be out of support in 2025. Even the ones sold last fall that don't meet Win 11 requirements will be forced to upgrade (or pay extra for support).

 

[Paddle1]

You mean like how I can't upgrade to Windows 11 because my pc was built in 2015? Windows 11 doesn't support vintage hardware anymore than macOS does. MS does the exact same thing.

The difference is that Windows 10 is still officially supported (and far more popular than 11). The equivalent Mac release by year (El Capitan) or any versions before Ventura are not to the same degree. You will run into more compatibility issues using a 2015 Mac than a PC, even with other Apple products such as trying to sync an iPhone.

 

[MPclk2006]

Yeah the keyboard is the biggest issue. I didn't mention it in my original post, if I keep using this as my primary machine I'll need to keep paying for AppleCare+ each year which is $139. The keyboard has regular issues like clockwork and I can't afford to keep paying Apple the out of warranty costs for the once a year (if not more) keyboard issues I have.

I think this alone should alone be reason for you to upgrade. I have a 2017 MacBook Pro and never had an issue with the keyboard, for me recently is the battery not holding as much charge.

 

[Apple_Robert]

I have never felt like I was forced to upgrade. If you feel that way, you need to change your thinking. You always have options.

 

[Jumpthesnark]

If the keyboard and security issues are big enough for you to make an upgrade, then you could certainly do worse than buying a M1 or M2 laptop. They'd be newer, which buys you a few more years of OS upgrades & support, and it sounds like you'd have fewer keyboard issues.

The only time I ever felt "compelled" to upgrade was due to the fairly common upgrade cycle a lot of photographers faced: You'd buy a new camera that shot a brand new RAW format, and that RAW format was only recognized in by the latest Photoshop or Lightroom, which only worked on the latest OS, which only worked on newer Apple hardware. It was an ugly (and expensive!) cycle. Having an Adobe subscription seems to have eliminated this problem. And I used to hate the idea of software subscriptions, but in this case it's definitely working for me!

So to answer your question, no I don't feel forced to upgrade.

 

[TechnoMonk]

Is this level of support really the best? Windows 10 support will last until October 14, 2025; and computers built in 2010 can still run Windows 10 comfortably.

Apple is way behind Windows in supporting computers long-term.

Good luck finding drivers for those old laptops. HP and Dell are worse than apple when it comes to updating the drivers or supporting older laptops.

That is a good point, and well said.

I think the reality is; the PC that I built in 2013 still runs well for all intents and purposes AND still gets security and Windows updates. Sure, many of the drivers haven't been touched in five years, but it still functions flawlessly.

Apple simply shuts out those computers from receiving any sort of support. A 2013 iMac, in comparison, is insecure and has been shut out from updates completely.

Custom built PC’s and laptops are usually different story. Laptop makers are notoriously poor in updating the drivers. My in laws went through this recently. Windows can run, but HP doesn’t have updated drivers.

 

[Yebubbleman]

I have a 2017 15" MacBook Pro. I use it as my primary computing device and outside of the crappy keyboard it's been working for me. I've had AppleCare+ on it since getting it in 2018. With Apple dropping MacOS support for previous MacBook Pro models, I feel like this model is next to be dropped come this WWDC. I know Apple typically provides security updates for older MacOS versions for 2 additional years but its an unwritten policy and could change. I hate how Apple isn't upfront about the minimum amount of years they'll provide security updates for their OS releases.

Last thing I want to do is be running insecure software on a computer I use for online banking and bill paying. I got plenty of devices so I don't feel like buying a new one, but I feel like I should go ahead and just upgrade. I don't really need the power that a 14/16" MacBook Pro offers, so a MacBook Air or 13" Pro would be fine. But I feel like the one I have is fine for my needs and would continue to work (outside of the horrible keyboard and the fact I have to get it replaced at least once every year with AppleCare when keys get stuck).

Not sure if anyone else feels this way.

I definitely feel that way. Butterfly keyboards totally aside, PC and Mac hardware are far outlasting Microsoft's and Apple's ability/desire to support them.

Apple had a pretty good period - from about 2015 to 2019 - where really old hardware kept getting supported for new macOS releases. Hell, El Capitan was 2015's release and it supported Macs from one year past the start of the transition TO Intel. Catalina supported Macs from 2012. That was fairly incredible too.

I do feel like they are tightening that all up. Part of it was that 2016 hardware really wasn't that much better than 2013 hardware. Intel processors stagnated a lot leading up to the Apple Silicon transition. I DO believe that hardware features unique to 2017 Macs and newer were what brought the system requirements up this year. I also believe that, for how many OS features require a T2 or an Apple Silicon Mac, that non-T2 Macs are probably next on the chopping block.

But it's also to say that if you are worried about not being on a computer secure enough to do online banking, you will be fine for two years past the point where your Mac can no longer run the latest release. That's to say that Apple is going to be still patching the OS and still giving you the latest Safari versions up to that point.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't still recommend that you consider heading to the Apple Certified Refurbished Mac section of Apple's online store and finding an M1 MacBook Air or M1 13-inch MacBook Pro to replace your 2017 15-inch MacBook Pro. Now's not a bad time to make that kind of a jump. And it really is that good. But, Apple hasn't yet sunsetted support for your existing Mac and even when they do, you will still have two years to figure out your next move before you truly have to make it.

 

[MallardDuck]

Security updates are often supported 5-7 years and every after, it’s unlikely to be problematic.

That is absolutely not true. Security updates are now only guaranteed for the current release. There are known issues even in Monterey that are not patched, and if you go back beyond Big Sur, those OS's are at serious risk of compromise if they're used online.

I do this for a living, and see machines compromised regularly. That happens basically two ways: Someone clicking on something they shouldn't have, or drive-by malware. In both cases, the vast majority of the time, the compromise relies on known, patched vulnerabilities in software.

Keeping OS and applications current is the #2 recommendation I make for staying safe online. (#1 is to use a password manager with a long master passphrase that's inaccessible to the company selling the application - i.e. not lasspass).

 

[macfacts]

Poor analogy at play there. While Windows 10 will be supported through 2025, many of those 2010-2015 PCs running the OS are already past the window to get new updates, drivers, etc., simply because the hardware requirements for Windows 10 in 2022-23 are higher than they were when the OS was first released. Additionally, most device manufacturers stop updating device drivers well before OS support ends, so those machines are using outdated drivers and either older builds of Windows 10 or more recent builds but running them noticeably slower due to the hardware inside the machines. Also, as software requirements increase, many of those older PCs are unable to run updated versions of those applications due to the older hardware inside the machines.

Microsoft isn't supporting all the various configurations of PC hardware, just the OS itself. Driver support is left to device manufacturers, so other than generic drivers, Microsoft is largely hands-off on that side of the equation. Apple is supporting both the OS and hardware simultaneously, so hardware is fully supported for longer on the Mac side than the Windows side.

Only apple monitors and speakers need device drivers, to lock you in.

 

[ZircoBen]

You mean like how I can't upgrade to Windows 11 because my pc was built in 2015? Windows 11 doesn't support vintage hardware anymore than macOS does. MS does the exact same thing.

I guess the difference at hand is feature updates vs security updates. Apple consistently leaves computers that are only 7 to 8 years old with zero support, security or feature updates.

On the other hand, computers on Windows 10, which can run on computers as old as the Vista era, are still receiving security (and some small feature improvements) until 2025.

Microsoft understands that the hardware that runs their OS often lasts for well over a decade. Apple seems to actively push you to buy a new computer by leaving them completely out in the cold.

 

[Mr. Dee]

Like others have mentioned, installing Windows 10 or Linux in a dual boot setup could extend the life of the hardware. Whatever unique macOS apps you still need to use you can boot into it for that. But for online banking and sensitive data, use Linux. I have a 2015 15 MacBook Pro running Mojave and I plan to keep it there because I don’t want to lose Photoshop CS6.

 

[OnawaAfrica]

I have a 2017 15" MacBook Pro. I use it as my primary computing device and outside of the crappy keyboard it's been working for me. I've had AppleCare+ on it since getting it in 2018. With Apple dropping MacOS support for previous MacBook Pro models, I feel like this model is next to be dropped come this WWDC. I know Apple typically provides security updates for older MacOS versions for 2 additional years but its an unwritten policy and could change. I hate how Apple isn't upfront about the minimum amount of years they'll provide security updates for their OS releases.

Last thing I want to do is be running insecure software on a computer I use for online banking and bill paying. I got plenty of devices so I don't feel like buying a new one, but I feel like I should go ahead and just upgrade. I don't really need the power that a 14/16" MacBook Pro offers, so a MacBook Air or 13" Pro would be fine. But I feel like the one I have is fine for my needs and would continue to work (outside of the horrible keyboard and the fact I have to get it replaced at least once every year with AppleCare when keys get stuck).

Not sure if anyone else feels this way.

apple is very open over how long they support hardware, u just have to look it up. why would any company need to offer support for a older than 6-7 year hardware? apple supports thair hardware for very long time. while samsung phone or android phones get maybe 1 or 2 os updates apple provides for the iphones/ ipads/ macs updates for up to 7 or 8 years.

 

[OnawaAfrica]

I guess the difference at hand is feature updates vs security updates. Apple consistently leaves computers that are only 7 to 8 years old with zero support, security or feature updates.

On the other hand, computers on Windows 10, which can run on computers as old as the Vista era, are still receiving security (and some small feature improvements) until 2025.

Microsoft understands that the hardware that runs their OS often lasts for well over a decade. Apple seems to actively push you to buy a new computer by leaving them completely out in the cold.

well Microsoft doesn't support any specific hardware at all. they make a OS and the drivers are provided by the PC Manufacturers. but honestly windows 10 is terrible on anything below a i5 2nd gen not to talk about windows 11.
apple on the other hand makes the Hardware and the Software so they can ensure that the OS runs well even on their older hardware like a 6 year old computer. and even if they don't officially support it anymore after 7-8 years then there is a community here on Macrumors which makes it run on unsupported hardware.

 

[engbren]

I had a mid 2009 15" MacBook Pro that was in perfect working order. I can't recall what the last MacOS was that it could run but it was fairly ancient. I managed to get Windows 10 working via Bootcamp, which wasn't supported and took a bit of fiddling around with various drivers. It was able to run Windows and Office apps quite well and functioned as a kids "remote learning" laptop during Covid restrictions. I had upgraded the RAM and the HDD to an SSD but it was still a Core 2 Duo laptop. Finally, late last year, the screen hinge was a little broken and Windows software updates stopped working. By this time, my kids had a need for a higher spec laptop. At a little over 12 years of computing out of it, I was happy to donate it to a local enthusiast who wanted to keep it on its latest version of macOS which was still functional. I recall there was an issue for them rebuilding it (as I wiped the ssd prior to donating) as the macOS installer used expired certificates.

 

[smoking monkey]

Sounds like a base MacBook Air M2 would do you perfectly. If you keep it another 4 years you're looking at another 500 dollars. That 500 dollars could be spent on AppleCare for the new computer instead of on a piece of kit that won't be safe in 4 years and basically useless. You might even get a small trade in on this computer from Apple. Even 100 bucks is better than nothing. You could also sell privately and get more.

 

[Larsvonhier]

And even if Apple drops support then there is always OCLP and great community support here. Works for a lot of unsupported machines and quite a few users are happy to avoid further filling the landfill for a while. Another such thread will most likely be back with upcoming next macOS (as far as Apple retains some version of macOS for intel).