Anyone else feel like they are forced to upgrade

[Contact_Feanor]

I'd cross that bridge when you come to it. I've been an Apple user for a decade and have never felt forced to upgrade due to a lack of security updates. Apple was still updating my iPhone 5s with security updates when the carrier finally stopped supporting the phone. I recently updated my 2015 Retina MBP because I had swapped out the hard drive several years ago and I couldn't get the OS to updated without an Apple hard drive installed. Ended up getting an M2 Macbook Air which for my purposes is more than capable and feels snappier than the MBP it replaced.

The 5S, now 10 years old, still had a security update in januari...

 

[TechnoMonk]

With respect, I don't think this comment is dumb. Apple devices, and particularly the mobile ones, represent a careful calibration of hardware and software to work the best. For example, iOS 16 is designed to work best with the iPhone 14 family. Apple engineers spent a considerable amount of time and effort tooling and optimizing iOS 16 to make the iPhone 14 shine its best. When iOS 17 comes out, they will make the same effort for the iPhone 15 family, and somewhat less of an effort made for the iPhone 14 family. As the difference between OS and hardware gets larger, it gets harder and harder to justify the effort to tweak the OS to make older hardware work as well (especially has the newer hardware gets more speed, different architecture, newer features, etc.). Eventually it's not even worth it to make the newest OS compatible with older hardware. But part of that trade off is that your older device will run slower on the new OS, both because the new OS has more hardware-expensive features AND because the OS isn't AS finely tuned for the older hardware.

(Fwiw I don't think the tuning makes THAT big of a difference, but its probably fair to say that it is less good than the day you bought it.)

What are you talking about? I have iPhone 11, 13 mini, 13 pro, and 13 Pro max in my household. None of these devices run slower or worse on Ios16 than ios15. My mom uses an SE 2nd gen; she has no problems with ios 16. I am not surprised Apple adds new features and software to support the new hardware on the latest phones.
When I upgrade my 13 Pm to probably iPhone 17 or iPhone 18, I will get a lot more than being in a rut and stagnant for years worrying about legacy.

It is more of a mindset of wanting the greatest and latest every year and feeling like the iPhone 11 and iPhone 14 should be the same. I used my iPhone 7+ for five and half years and changed the battery twice; yes, the phone looked slower than the latest models, but it did its work. Apple never forced me to upgrade.

 

[TechnoMonk]

The 5S, now 10 years old, still had a security update in januari...

Surprised apple didn’t force you to upgrade. You must be on the Apples nice list.

 

[michaelscarn]

No, I did not feel "forced" to upgrade. I kept my old laptop until it no longer worked well for my needs (8 years, still used on occasion) then voluntary purchased a new one. You're just looking for any reason to upgrade, as unnecessary as it may be at this time.

 

[Contact_Feanor]

Surprised apple didn’t force you to upgrade. You must be on the Apples nice list.

Apple issues security update for the almost 10-year-old iPhone 5S

The 2013-vintage phone is getting a little more secure.

www.theverge.com

 

[jwdsail]

I have a 2017 15" MacBook Pro. I use it as my primary computing device and outside of the crappy keyboard it's been working for me. I've had AppleCare+ on it since getting it in 2018. With Apple dropping MacOS support for previous MacBook Pro models, I feel like this model is next to be dropped come this WWDC. I know Apple typically provides security updates for older MacOS versions for 2 additional years but its an unwritten policy and could change. I hate how Apple isn't upfront about the minimum amount of years they'll provide security updates for their OS releases.

Last thing I want to do is be running insecure software on a computer I use for online banking and bill paying. I got plenty of devices so I don't feel like buying a new one, but I feel like I should go ahead and just upgrade. I don't really need the power that a 14/16" MacBook Pro offers, so a MacBook Air or 13" Pro would be fine. But I feel like the one I have is fine for my needs and would continue to work (outside of the horrible keyboard and the fact I have to get it replaced at least once every year with AppleCare when keys get stuck).

Not sure if anyone else feels this way.

If you're not unhappy with it, if it still works for you for how you use it, and you can stand the crappy keyboard...

At the very least, wait until the next revision of the MBP is released? Then, you'll have the option to choose between a refurb M2 Pro/Max MBP and a new M3(4?) Pro/Max MBP..

Since you have AppleCare+, if you have an Apple Store close by to assist with any keyboard issues and don't need to ship it for repairs.. hang on to it until Apple stops supporting it, or until your web browser of choice stops supporting it and begins to cause issues with your banking and bill paying...

Context (I just replaced my 2012 non-retina about a year and a half ago, but still use it from time to time - just this past weekend actually).. I hang on to my tech forever... Actually just had to use my PMG5 from 2003 for some work with SW that won't run on anything else I own as well..

YMMV, of course.

 

[OneBar]

Honestly there’s no reason why an intel 4c/8t processor with 16 gb of ram shouldn’t be able to run a modern OS for basic needs. It really feels like Apple is in a rush to stop supporting Intel based devices.

Except MS is the one at fault there. They won't produce an ARM based Windows that will run on an Apple SoC because of contractual reasons. It isn't up to Apple to make Windows work on macOS.

 

[OneBar]

With respect, I don't think this comment is dumb. Apple devices, and particularly the mobile ones, represent a careful calibration of hardware and software to work the best. For example, iOS 16 is designed to work best with the iPhone 14 family. Apple engineers spent a considerable amount of time and effort tooling and optimizing iOS 16 to make the iPhone 14 shine its best. When iOS 17 comes out, they will make the same effort for the iPhone 15 family, and somewhat less of an effort made for the iPhone 14 family. As the difference between OS and hardware gets larger, it gets harder and harder to justify the effort to tweak the OS to make older hardware work as well (especially has the newer hardware gets more speed, different architecture, newer features, etc.). Eventually it's not even worth it to make the newest OS compatible with older hardware. But part of that trade off is that your older device will run slower on the new OS, both because the new OS has more hardware-expensive features AND because the OS isn't AS finely tuned for the older hardware.

(Fwiw I don't think the tuning makes THAT big of a difference, but its probably fair to say that it is less good than the day you bought it.)

Except they have to make more of an effort with the older phones, especially when they can't run features from the newer phones. Example: Dynamic Island. My iP11PM won't run it, obviously, but 16 feels functionally snappier than 15 did, probably because it's not having to run Dynamic Island and probably several other things that the 14 runs but the 11 can't. If they just dropped 16 as is on the 11, it'd probably brick the phone. So they have to go in and tune as much or more for older supported devices than they do for the current device the OS was designed around.

 

[HiVolt]

Poor analogy at play there. While Windows 10 will be supported through 2025, many of those 2010-2015 PCs running the OS are already past the window to get new updates, drivers, etc., simply because the hardware requirements for Windows 10 in 2022-23 are higher than they were when the OS was first released. Additionally, most device manufacturers stop updating device drivers well before OS support ends, so those machines are using outdated drivers and either older builds of Windows 10 or more recent builds but running them noticeably slower due to the hardware inside the machines. Also, as software requirements increase, many of those older PCs are unable to run updated versions of those applications due to the older hardware inside the machines.

Microsoft isn't supporting all the various configurations of PC hardware, just the OS itself. Driver support is left to device manufacturers, so other than generic drivers, Microsoft is largely hands-off on that side of the equation. Apple is supporting both the OS and hardware simultaneously, so hardware is fully supported for longer on the Mac side than the Windows side.

I would say its the opposite. For example, I have a Lenovo Thinkpad from 2011, which shipped with Windows 7, and had a free upgrade to Windows 10. It is completely supported with security updates and Windows feature updates until 2025. Find me a Mac from 2011 that is still supported by MacOS.

Granted, this changed a bit since Windows 11 has much more strict requirements eliminating some PC's that aren't very old, but you are still looking at least 10 years of software updates and support.

And your claim about drivers is kind of bogus, because you don't know what Apple does or does not update, because they just don't disclose it. There are people that are still having bluetooth issues with the original M1 Mac mini's from day one, and that's after several major MacOS releases now.

 

[theMarble]

Honestly there’s no reason why an intel 4c/8t processor with 16 gb of ram shouldn’t be able to run a modern OS for basic needs. It really feels like Apple is in a rush to stop supporting Intel based devices.

What's happening as we speak is very similar to what happened during the PPC to Intel transition in 2006.

For the first 3 years of the Intel transition, both Intel and PPC machines got the latest OS updates. However that was broken in 2009 with the release of Snow Leopard. That was the first OS X release which ditched all support for PPC Macs, leaving only Intel in the spotlight.

The argument was that PPC machines were nowhere as fast as Intel machines, and in general, that was true. However there were a small handful of machines that were still extremely good in 2009. This includes the DLSD PowerBook's from Late 2005, and most of all the G5 Quad. Quad-core, up to 16GB of DDR2, multiple high-end GPUs... Left behind after less than 4 years since it was introduced.

Mainstream app support for PPC started to decline around a year or two later.

If that says anything, if you're running Ventura, you should be perfectly fine until ~2024-2025. The big blow will come when mainstream web browsers (eg: Chrome, Firefox...) stop supporting Intel Macs.

Of course, given the track record of the 2016-2019 MBP's, its time will likely come faster.

 

[ricketysquire]

What's happening as we speak is very similar to what happened during the PPC to Intel transition in 2006.

For the first 3 years of the Intel transition, both Intel and PPC machines got the latest OS updates. However that was broken in 2009 with the release of Snow Leopard. That was the first OS X release which ditched all support for PPC Macs, leaving only Intel in the spotlight.

The argument was that PPC machines were nowhere as fast as Intel machines, and in general, that was true. However there were a small handful of machines that were still extremely good in 2009. This includes the DLSD PowerBook's from Late 2005, and most of all the G5 Quad. Quad-core, up to 16GB of DDR2, multiple high-end GPUs... Left behind after less than 4 years since it was introduced.

Mainstream app support for PPC started to decline around a year or two later.

If that says anything, if you're running Ventura, you should be perfectly fine until ~2024-2025. The big blow will come when mainstream web browsers (eg: Chrome, Firefox...) stop supporting Intel Macs.

Of course, given the track record of the 2016-2019 MBP's, its time will likely come faster.

This is pretty much my line of thinking. I never had a PPC machine (my first Mac was a 2008 MacBook Pro) but I remember Snow Leopard dropping PPC support really quickly.

 

[theMarble]

I remember Snow Leopard dropping PPC support really quickly.

PPC app support (for Leopard) still was alive during SL days, it was around Lion (2011-12) when things dropped off.

Kinda off topic here, but did you know that Apple originally meant for Snow Leopard to be the last PPC release, and that Lion would be the first Intel-only release? They changed that relatively close to launch.

There are 2 leaked beta builds of PPC Snow Leopard, which are being put together with 10.5.8 files to form a semi-PPC Snow Leopard:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/snow-leopard-on-unsupported-ppc-machines.2232031/

 

[JustAnExpat]

Many people may feel like they are forced to upgrade their devices, software, or services due to various reasons such as security concerns, lack of support, new features, or performance issues. Companies often release new versions of their products to provide better user experience and address existing problems. However, these updates may require users to upgrade their existing hardware or software, which can be frustrating and expensive.

It's important to evaluate the benefits and drawbacks of upgrading before making a decision. Consider if the upgrade will solve any issues or if it's necessary to have the latest features. Also, think about the cost and if it's worth the investment.

It's important to note that some upgrades may be necessary for security reasons to protect your personal information and devices from cyber threats. It's always recommended to keep your software and devices up-to-date with the latest security patches and updates.

Ultimately, the decision to upgrade or not should be based on personal preferences and circumstances. It's essential to research and weigh the pros and cons before making any decision.

Hi ChatGPT! Nice to see you in here

 

[JustAnExpat]

>I have a 2017 15" MacBook Pro

My opinion: As long as they keyboard is working, and you still have it under warranty, sell it asap. Those keyboards are ticking time bombs and will eventually fail. I highly recommend getting a MacBook Air (M1?). The MacBook Air M1 s will run circles around that machine.

 

[theMarble]

My opinion: As long as they keyboard is working, and you still have it under warranty, sell it asap.

The keyboard isn't the only issue with this gen, they also had Flexgate, SSD-gate (or was that just the 13") and early on had dying USB-C ports.

Not sure how many would actually buy it. Any informed buyer knows that unless it is selling for extremely cheap, they are ticking timebombs to be avoided at all cost. More so once the keyboard repair program ends.

I tell people who want a cheap Mac to either go 2015 15", or save up slightly more and get a used M1 mini or M1 Air. I got my 2015 15" brand new what feels like an eon ago now, and yet it still does everything I need it to. Sure, After Effects brings it to its knees, but I'm happy to put up with it for now given that I will be upgrading to ASi very soon. It has had a very good run, and quadrupling the storage earlier this year helped a good bit as well. (I already had ~7TB worth of external drives, but I prefer to edit off the internal as it is much faster)

 

[iLondoner]

Sounds like you will be a prime candidate for the 15-in Macbook Air when that device eventually sees the light of day. It will be far more powerful than your 2017 MBP.

 

[Christopher Kim]

AppleCare+ but as mentioned it's like $139 a year. Through I go to the Store, so that means I have to make an appointment and drive there.

I don't want to be *that* person that gets upset at the Apple Store, but this is starting to get ridiculous when they can't even do a repair properly. I just don't like the waste of time, and the way they treat me at the Apple Store. Last week when I took it in, I got a lecture about some scratches on the side of the top case. They were going to have to replace the top case anyways when they replace the screen since its one part for them. Like the scratch is on the side, just normal wear and tear. The pixel blob was on the bottom near the dock. I didn't want to say anything, I just wanted to get in and out.

My view - stop paying the Applecare (cancel right before the next payment date). I agree with others that the market value of your laptop now is probably <$500, so continuing to pay $139 makes less sense than when it was a $2k+ machine.

Start banking the $139 into an account to be used for your next laptop. Use your current MBP until either the 15" MBA or the M3 MBPs are released (or some other computer that piques your interest).
If your keyboard fails again in the meantime and you need to use it, you can always use an external kb / external monitor in clamshell mode as a backup.

>I have a 2017 15" MacBook Pro

My opinion: As long as they keyboard is working, and you still have it under warranty, sell it asap. Those keyboards are ticking time bombs and will eventually fail. I highly recommend getting a MacBook Air (M1?). The MacBook Air M1 s will run circles around that machine.

This isn't a bad option either. If you do that, it makes sense to keep the AppleCare+ on it for now, given it could be of value to the buyer. Only downside is that I think the market value of this is pretty low (I estimated <$500 above gut feel), and so in some ways, the operational value you get out of it right now is probably worth more than that. I would only do this if you're ready to pull the trigger on a replacement now (Eg. current M2 MBA or M2 Pro/Max MBPs).

 

[IG88]

I don't really need the power that a 14/16" MacBook Pro offers, so a MacBook Air or 13" Pro would be fine.

The 'waiting to be announced' 15" MBA might be a good fit, since you aren't in a hurry to upgrade.

 

[ricketysquire]

Dropped off my MacBook Pro this morning, they need to replace the screen once more. I mentioned I was literally here the week before, that this is the 2nd time they messed up on a repair. They didn't seem to care. This computer has gone through at least 3 keyboards (the whole bottom case since they don't replace the keyboard), a few USB C ports and now its going to be on its 3rd display.

Im just tired of arguing with Apple over this computer. To be honest, I don't want to "reward" apple with a purchase after such a low quality computer and terrible support.

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

That is a good point, and well said.

I think the reality is; the PC that I built in 2013 still runs well for all intents and purposes AND still gets security and Windows updates. Sure, many of the drivers haven't been touched in five years, but it still functions flawlessly.

Apple simply shuts out those computers from receiving any sort of support. A 2013 iMac, in comparison, is insecure and has been shut out from updates completely.

While true, it’s also possible to install Windows on that 2013 iMac.
Also, while not official, it is not *that* big of a hassle to get Big Sur, Apple’s third previous operating system that’s still receiving security updates, running on machines as old as 2008.
And while there are certain machines in Apple‘s history that have been completely forgotten and abandoned extremely quickly by software support (looking at you early 2008 MacBook Air), other machines ended up being extremely lucky.
The mid 2007 iMac for example, which shipped with Mac OS X tiger and was supported with security updates all the way until 2018 when El Capitan officially lost support.
11 years for an all-in-one from the mid 2000s isn’t bad at all.

 

[theMarble]

Dropped off my MacBook Pro this morning, they need to replace the screen once more. I mentioned I was literally here the week before, that this is the 2nd time they messed up on a repair. They didn't seem to care. This computer has gone through at least 3 keyboards (the whole bottom case since they don't replace the keyboard), a few USB C ports and now its going to be on its 3rd display.

Im just tired of arguing with Apple over this computer. To be honest, I don't want to "reward" apple with a purchase after such a low quality computer and terrible support.

Sorry to hear that.
Were the keyboard/display repair programs honoured when you sent it in?

Have you talked to a manager there? I'm not one to complain typically, but if they have screwed up repairs multiple times, then that is a perfectly valid reason to speak to someone higher up.

Do you have any other Apple stores near you? I've personally never had a bad experience with Apple, but obviously different stores, different people... A lot of the time, it's just one store that is the problem.

Not trying to sway you into "rewarding Apple with another purchase", but since 2020-2021, Macs have gotten a lot better (both in performance, and in reliability). The butterfly keyboard was ditched in favour of a revised version of the 2015 Magic Keyboard design (which never failed) and the display cable was redesigned.

My suggestion would be (if possible) to try a different Apple Store and/or speak to Apple online. May get a different opinion.

 

[TechnoMonk]

Dropped off my MacBook Pro this morning, they need to replace the screen once more. I mentioned I was literally here the week before, that this is the 2nd time they messed up on a repair. They didn't seem to care. This computer has gone through at least 3 keyboards (the whole bottom case since they don't replace the keyboard), a few USB C ports and now its going to be on its 3rd display.

Im just tired of arguing with Apple over this computer. To be honest, I don't want to "reward" apple with a purchase after such a low quality computer and terrible support.

Call customer success/care mznager. Ask them to send you a new/refurb laptop. Let them know multiple repairs were botched up.

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

Dropped off my MacBook Pro this morning, they need to replace the screen once more. I mentioned I was literally here the week before, that this is the 2nd time they messed up on a repair. They didn't seem to care. This computer has gone through at least 3 keyboards (the whole bottom case since they don't replace the keyboard), a few USB C ports and now its going to be on its 3rd display.

Im just tired of arguing with Apple over this computer. To be honest, I don't want to "reward" apple with a purchase after such a low quality computer and terrible support.

I know you don’t want to reward them with another purchase, but it should be noted that every company releases a bad product or two.
My 2016 MBP was a mess of issues.
Meanwhile Apple silicon machines are rock solid and most of the issues that made those previous generations so flawed are totally gone.
If I were you I’d just sell it and get…… Literally any Apple Silicon laptop besides the Touch Bar one.
M1 Airs are great, and a refurbished 14 or 16 inch M1 Pro would be an absolutely massive improvement.

 

[ctjack]

If I were you I’d just sell it and get…… Literally any Apple Silicon laptop besides the Touch Bar one.

If he/she will go there next time - it will be guaranteed a new equivalent laptop for free. So I better keep pushing that and make those keys stick if you know what i mean.

 

[ricketysquire]

If he/she will go there next time - it will be guaranteed a new equivalent laptop for free. So I better keep pushing that and make those keys stick if you know what i mean.

Supposedly there's was/is a class action lawsuit and some money is supposed to be distributed to owners of these models.

I know you don’t want to reward them with another purchase, but it should be noted that every company releases a bad product or two.
My 2016 MBP was a mess of issues.
Meanwhile Apple silicon machines are rock solid and most of the issues that made those previous generations so flawed are totally gone.
If I were you I’d just sell it and get…… Literally any Apple Silicon laptop besides the Touch Bar one.
M1 Airs are great, and a refurbished 14 or 16 inch M1 Pro would be an absolutely massive improvement.

I know, I've had older and newer Macbook Pros without any issues. Im typing from a 2012 MacBook Pro, that literally suffered through being dropped and getting water damage and its still working to this day. I also have a work 2019 16 inch MacBook Pro that belong to my employer and that one has a far better keyboard. Of course, its only used for work as I don't want to have files on there that I lose access to if I ever lose my job.

Im just tired of the subpar Genius Bar experience Ive gotten. Im treated like im stupid, repairs aren't done properly or introduce new problems, and on top of it all they can't even bother to start the appointments on time and Im waiting over 30 minutes in some instances. Like if I show up before 10 minutes for my appointment, I have to wait before I can check in but its fine for them to waste my mornings and afternoons.

Call customer success/care mznager. Ask them to send you a new/refurb laptop. Let them know multiple repairs were botched up.

I guess its too late now, I dropped it off yesterday morning, supposedly they said they had the part in stock and it would be done same day, but I guess not. I should reach out and contact them but I suspect its a waste of my time. Left a message on the feedback page.