Apple Accused of Trapping 40 Million UK Customers Into iCloud Service

[Timo_Existencia]

Then lets put in terms of ownership: Its my data, not Apples. I should be able to extract it from their servers in a few clicks instead of labourously copy and pasting things. A lack of fluidity between platforms is a barrier to customer migration and therefore by definition a lock-in. Once again, I am happy with my data in iCloud but it should be easier to extract on Android and Windows because Apple make it easier to do the opposite on their own platforms.

Then don't use iCloud. Again, you're manufacturing complexity toward some solution that you think is better, but for some reason don't want to use.

If Apple is not providing you with a service that you want, then shop around. But as you say, you've decided you like iCloud. Could any product at any time be made better? Of course. But this is not an argument for lawsuits and courts, it's an argument for markets and competition. But I'm increasingly aware that a good number of EU citizens don't really understand the difference between markets and Governments.

 

[cjsuk]

All you're saying is that redundacy is good. That different systems have different strengths and weaknesses. These are all obvious points. Is Apple's iCloud service best for enterprise users? Probably not. But is iCloud great for the average consumer who will rarely have the knowledge or expertise to set up their own NAS system or other such services? iCloud has made millions of average users of Apple products much more secure. Period.

Just because one has technical level knowledge about the nuances of cloud storage does not mean that knowledge or its application has much bearing on whether or not average iPhone consumers should or should not use iCloud services. Different markets, different needs.

The least competent person I know still runs a Time Machine backup.

Redundancy is good. Redundancy where you control access to your data ultimately is the bare minimum of acceptability.

 

[surferfb]

Way too many people on this thread are confusing "I prefer Apple's products but don't like all of their rules" with "Apple has a monopoly and therefore should be forced to change their business practices." Android exists, Apple doesn't have a monopoly. Additionally, Apple offers alternatives, which may or may not be less convenient, and as noted in the article, half of users don't subscribe to higher storage tiers, which kind of destroys the argument that users are forced to sign up.

You have to decide what is more important to you, Apple's hardware or the rules you disagree with. If you decide the rules are more important to you, then use any one of a number of Android phones that let you do as you wish.

If you go to a fancy restaurant that requires wearing a jacket, but you don't want to wear a jacket, you either put on the jacket regardless and enjoy your meal, or go eat at another restaurant that doesn't require you to wear a jacket. You don't sue the restaurant to change their dress code.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Your funeral. You state facts without understanding the entire problem domain. I do understand it, in extreme detail.

The underlying block storage for the cloud provider has however many nines yes but that doesn’t stop problems above that level of abstraction not the complexity of distributed systems.

So let’s throw some scenarios on the table:

1. Your machine gets malware on it. That modifies files. Files are automatically synchronised to the cloud. You’re stuffed. OneDrive and iCloud at least have dubious recovery and history capabilities. That is because inactive data is pushed onto lower redundancy and/or lower cost storage with no SLA recovery times on the data. Sometimes it doesn’t even exist (iCloud is good at this). I have seen data loss.

2. Your machine has a bug in the client that drives the cloud API. This one is a fun one I came across a while back for a client. Transactional semantics are quite difficult to understand over multiple HTTP requests and there are no completion guarantees. I have seen data loss.

3. Some opaque abstractions use CRDTs to synchronise complex data structures rather than files. Most of the Apple stuff uses this rather than files. Google and Microsoft as well - some things are not even files. The resolution process when there are conflicting changes on multiple devices does not necessarily act intuitively. This will cause data loss. I have seen it.

The end game is of course that at some point you will need to recover from a “source of truth” and that should be an offline copy you have as well as the cloud which mitigates the risk of the cloud doing the above things, which do actually happen.

That is not to suggest you don’t use the cloud but it insulates you from very few real life issues. It is mostly a convenience. It is definitely not a backup.

Another thought experiment: your house burns down with your only iPhone and iPad and Mac in it. How do you get access to your data? I’ve got an off site backup AND a yubikey stored elsewhere. What have you got?

For ref this was my job for a number of years on a not too trivial sized investment company so I speak from experience of designing DR strategies as well as playing them out. You speak of ignorance and happy rainbow fairy stories only and it’s disingenuous to let you make this point and risk other people’s data.

DR is about risk. There are many different levels and appetites. It is a very different situation for a investment company, versus an individual, and versus a healthcare or critical infrastructure providers.

When my house burns down with my only iphone and ipad and mac in it, I go buy another one, connect to the internet and boom synchronize my data to the cloud to a version that corresponds to seconds before it got lost.

There are many different strategies for backup/restore, business continuity, disaster recovery. There is no such thing as one size fits all and is the only solution for all.

 

[cjsuk]

DR is about risk. There are many different levels and appetites. It is a very different situation for a investment company, versus an individual, and versus a healthcare or critical infrastructure providers.

When my house burns down with my only iphone and ipad and mac in it, I go buy another one, connect to the internet and boom synchronize my data to the cloud to a version that corresponds to seconds before it got lost.

There are many different strategies for backup/restore, business continuity, disaster recovery. There is no such thing as one size fits all and is the only solution for all.

Have you tested that you can do that?

Oh you log in and it has sent a 6 digit code to your phone… which is a pile of ash as are all your other MFA devices. Oh no worries you can use SMS backup. Errr damn! Phone Apple won’t help. Try logging into mobile company web site to get a new SIM sent out - ahh can’t because the password is in keychain.

This is the stuff that really gets people and most people are 100% ignorant of it.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

The least competent person I know still runs a Time Machine backup.

Redundancy is good. Redundancy where you control access to your data ultimately is the bare minimum of acceptability.

Has anybody argued that redundancy isn't a good practice? But most people, the vast majority of consumers, likely don't even have a single solution. So adding one solution will be an incredible improvement for most people.

Arguing that iCloud is deficient because it's not adding bullet-proof redundancy is just noise in this conversation.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Have you tested that you can do that?

Oh you log in and it has sent a 6 digit code to your phone… which is a pile of ash as are all your other MFA devices. Oh no worries you can use SMS backup. Errr damn! Phone Apple won’t help. Try logging into mobile company web site to get a new SIM sent out - ahh can’t because the password is in keychain.

This is the stuff that really gets people and most people are 100% ignorant of it.

This absolutely works. I've used it several times to set up new iPhones and Apple devices. The idea that you think it doesn't work makes me wonder why you're participating in the discussion? This is a basic feature of iCloud backup.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Have you tested that you can do that?

Yup...

Oh you log in and it has sent a 6 digit code to your phone… which is a pile of ash as are all your other MFA devices. Oh no worries you can use SMS backup. Errr damn! Phone Apple won’t help. Try logging into mobile company web site to get a new SIM sent out - ahh can’t because the password is in keychain.

Don't store my passwords in keychain And its just an eSIM, so up and running in no time.

This is the stuff that really gets people and most people are 100% ignorant of it.

No it isn't....You are overcomplicating this.

 

[cjsuk]

This absolutely works. I've used it several times to set up new iPhones and Apple devices. The idea that you think it doesn't work makes me wonder why you're participating in the discussion? This is a basic feature of iCloud backup.

Have you done it with no other device available? I don’t think you have tested it properly. You can’t even sign into iCloud to recover the backup if you don’t have a secondary device available.

I literally spend two weeks trying to do this before on a dead relative’s iCloud account so we could recover his docs. His watch and phone were stuck at the hospital inaccessible and he only left his username and password written down which was useless without another device (none of which we had PIN or passwords for).

There’s a lot of ignorance and arrogance here without a lot of experience to back it up. I mean your funeral but i warned you.

 

[cjsuk]

Yup...

Don't store my passwords in keychain And its just an eSIM, so up and running in no time.

No it isn't....You are overcomplicating this.

Do you keep your passwords offline and do you have a backup of those away from your computer/house? That would be a viable escape route.

 

[jz0309]

You are being forced to use icloud if you want to buy Apple Hardware

That is just plain nonsense

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Do you keep your passwords offline and do you have a backup of those away from your computer/house? That would be a viable escape route.

No, don't keep them offline, just don't store them in keychain, I use a different password manager.

 

[breenmask]

The issue here is that you are tied to iCloud, or are deliberately crippled.

then don't buy an iPhone?

With google you get 15 gb free which is enough for a phone back up minus photos.

Assuming you use Google Play store. If you use other stores, Google will not back it up which would make you deliberately crippled. Unless you think the majority won't use third party stores in which case the same argument can apply to Apple: majority will prefer iCloud.

Weird how you accuse Apple of deliberately crippling you, yet don't accuse Google of crippling you.

My iPhone back up is 10gb…

My iPhone back up is 3.8gb...Popeyes Fried Chicken app is taking up 187.7MB. Burger King is taking up 156.7MB. Turn off junk apps and you can reach <5GB

Not like 5GB was ever meant to back up your entire phone for eternity, it's there primarily for apps to use and sync your data across devices. Apple being responsible for backing up >1 billion devices daily for free is ridiculous.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Have you done it with no other device available? I don’t think you have tested it properly. You can’t even sign into iCloud to recover the backup if you don’t have a secondary device available.

Not true. Here's a description directly from Apple on how to do this without another device:

I literally spend two weeks trying to do this before on a dead relative’s iCloud account so we could recover his docs. His watch and phone were stuck at the hospital inaccessible and he only left his username and password written down which was useless without another device (none of which we had PIN or passwords for).

I can't speak to what you did or didn't do, or how he had his accounts set up.

 

[CarAnalogy]

It's still incredibly sad that by ~2010, capitalists went with cloud direction instead of making well-integrated self-hosting solutions.

Imagine having all your stuff on a Mac mini at home, including phone backups, contacts, etc. Free forever, fully yours, just don't forget to replace hard drives once in a while.

I'm certain that every person could easily manage that setup, just like all the "normie" people used to pirate music for their iPods back in the day.

But of course, it's harder for police and for data brokers to access data that way, so here we are.

Technically we do still have that option. It's just not as profitable so companies like Apple have moved away from it.

The iPhone does not technically require an Apple ID login. But it is required to use the App Store which is the only source of software, practically speaking. This is one reason I would like to see "sideloading" aka installing software of the user's choice without the control of a third party for their own purposes. You know, like a computer.

Thing is I have to disagree with you that the every day person could easily manage that. We already have companies like Synology providing similar things. There are still a good number of sharing settings on the Mac to use with your Mac Mini, and it can still run just about any server software you'd like one way or another.

People could, and do, but most just don't care enough to bother. They'll either just pay the 99c or let the nag banner sit there.

 

[SMH4KIDIOT]

I’ve got your point, but that’s Apple, for bad and for good. If you don’t like it, just buy something else

There's another option, as consumers we can lobby our politicians to force them to fix it.

 

[SMH4KIDIOT]

Where do people come up with these arguments? Nobody is forcing anything.

It is an apt argument. You cannot backup your text messages to a 3rd party cloud service of your choosing. The only option is either offline or iCloud and if you've used up the free 5GB allotment Apple gives you, you need to buy more iCloud storage.

Spare me the buy android inane retort.

Apple is providing a service that you can either use or not use.

You don't see the irony of your argument? That is literally the argument they are making. Apple does not give you an option to use another service with the hardware that you purchased. They are locking you into buying their cloud service.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

It is an apt argument. You cannot backup your text messages to a 3rd party cloud service of your choosing. The only option is either offline or iCloud and if you've used up the free 5GB allotment Apple gives you, you need to buy more iCloud storage.

Ah, but you included the physical backup option. Why doesn't this matter to you? It basically nullifies the argument I think you're making. That there are no options. There are options. You can choose a physical backup. You could even then store that physical backup on a different cloud system than iCloud.

And why does Apple even owe you the service of 5GB free? They don't. That you and others think you are owed this shows the vast chasm between your and my understanding of the issue.

Spare me the buy android inane retort.

Why? That's how markets work. You make choices based on tradeoffs. There's no Government solution that can save you from having to make choices based on tradeoffs. Government solutions are massive choices based on tradeoffs.

You don't see the irony of your argument? That is literally the argument they are making. Apple does not give you an option to use another service with the hardware that you purchased. They are locking you into buying their cloud service.

First, it's not Apple's job to give you third-party alternatives. But there are a number of solutions for backing up your iphone. Ignoring them doesn't go away. You and others just seemingly want iCloud to be a free service. But you've not provided a business-based justification for forcing Apple to give this to you for free. Or that Apple should be forced to develop this for a third-party vendor.

 

[robvalentine]

then don't buy an iPhone?


Assuming you use Google Play store. If you use other stores, Google will not back it up which would make you deliberately crippled. Unless you think the majority won't use third party stores in which case the same argument can apply to Apple: majority will prefer iCloud.

Weird how you accuse Apple of deliberately crippling you, yet don't accuse Google of crippling you.


My iPhone back up is 3.8gb...Popeyes Fried Chicken app is taking up 187.7MB. Burger King is taking up 156.7MB. Turn off junk apps and you can reach <5GB

Not like 5GB was ever meant to back up your entire phone for eternity, it's there primarily for apps to use and sync your data across devices. Apple being responsible for backing up >1 billion devices daily for free is ridiculous.

The argument here is that you are tied into iCloud for back up.. At least google give you 15 for free (and mine your data as much as Apple do. The privacy thing is marketing BS.

 

[Tago]

There's another option, as consumers we can lobby our politicians to force them to fix it.

I believe the politicians should start by fixing themselves, and it will take a while. Before they are good to fix anything else. A bipartisan take.

 

[Tago]

Ah, but you included the physical backup option. Why doesn't this matter to you? It basically nullifies the argument I think you're making. That there are no options. There are options. You can choose a physical backup. You could even then store that physical backup on a different cloud system than iCloud.

And why does Apple even owe you the service of 5GB free? They don't. That you and others think you are owed this shows the vast chasm between your and my understanding of the issue.



Why? That's how markets work. You make choices based on tradeoffs. There's no Government solution that can save you from having to make choices based on tradeoffs. Government solutions are massive choices based on tradeoffs.




First, it's not Apple's job to give you third-party alternatives. But there are a number of solutions for backing up your iphone. Ignoring them doesn't go away. You and others just seemingly want iCloud to be a free service. But you've not provided a business-based justification for forcing Apple to give this to you for free. Or that Apple should be forced to develop this for a third-party vendor.

If people are so focused upon backups, they can back up an iPhone/iPad with any computer running Windows, Linux or MacOS/Osx, and put the backup wherever they like, cloud, local, stick or portable disk. But they are not. They just love the bickering.

Android is easy. Google has everything stored anyway. Whatever you forgot/lost, Google remembers it all

 

[surferfb]

There's another option, as consumers we can lobby our politicians to force them to fix it.

Should we lobby to force Tesla to offer CarPlay/Android Auto? Google search to allow you to use DuckDuckGo on the backend?

The argument here is that you are tied into iCloud for back up.. At least google give you 15 for free (and mine your data as much as Apple do. The privacy thing is marketing BS.

Citation that Apple mines your data just as much as Google does. And then sells advertising against the data it mines.

Look, I wish Apple offered more space for free. But it’s their decision to make. Apple makes “premium” products and charges premium prices for them. Kind of like how maintenance on a BMW or Rolex is more expensive than a Honda or Seiko. If you don’t like it, there are plenty of other options.

 

[breenmask]

The argument here is that you are tied into iCloud for back up.

And you're tied to apps from Google Play if you're using Google to backup.

. At least google give you 15 for free (and mine your data as much as Apple do. The privacy thing is marketing BS.

Wrong.

First there's no proof that Apple mines your data from backups and iCloud Drive as much as Google. You're guessing.

Secondly, advanced data protection allows you to encrypt your iCloud Drive, iCloud backups, photos, notes, etc... end to end. It's impossible for Apple to get into. Simply turn it on.

 

[erihp]

This absolutely works. I've used it several times to set up new iPhones and Apple devices. The idea that you think it doesn't work makes me wonder why you're participating in the discussion? This is a basic feature of iCloud backup.

The argument here is that you are tied into iCloud for back up.. At least google give you 15 for free (and mine your data as much as Apple do. The privacy thing is marketing BS.

you arent tied to anything. what dont you get?

does google allow a side-load of your data to icloud??? why not??? lawsuit!!!

silly silly people

 

[Abazigal]

You are being forced to use icloud if you want to buy Apple Hardware

It’s no different from me not being allowed to bring in my own food and drinks into a cinema or restaurant, or complaining that I still have to buy $60 games after splurging on an PS5 console. It’s all one package deal. If you don’t like being forced to have to use an Apple Watch or being forced to use only Siri with an iPhone, then don’t get an iPhone in the first place.