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See what Peter said in Acts 15.

Curious, I don't recall the scripture mentioning that Paul was riding on a horse on the road to Damascus.

If you don't wish to take the Bible on its own terms then I can't help you. I'm not here today to argue if one part of the Bible is legitimate verses another. That is another topic of discussion. I believe all of the Bible is inspired by God. Jesus proved his own views on homosexuality in his Sermon on the Mount when he affirmed the entirety of the Law (ref to Matt 5).

Sorry, been a while since I've read the actual Bible passages relating to Paul, must have imagined the horse. And sure, Peter did know Jesus intimately, but still, he too was an early church leader -- his decisions may have been deeply influenced by Jesus' teachings and examples, but they are his decisions, not Jesus'.

And Jesus didn't mention homosexuality directly in the sermon on the mount, did he? So his "affirmation" of Jewish law regarding homosexuality was part of the general affirmation of the entirty of Jewish law -- which included things like prohibition against eating shrimp, am I right? And it was his followers, not Jesus himself, who later decided that we can disregard the part about not eating shrimp, but the condemnation of homosexuality as sin will stand. Or am I not understanding this correctly somehow?
 
The problem i have with this mentality is it disregards known science. While known science isn't perfect, and yes, we might be all proven wrong in 20 years. There is more evidence behind the current sciences to give us reasonable assumptions.

Science isn't just some guy in a lab saying "I believe it this way, therefore its this way". Science is something that has a few core tenants.

Science must be observable.
Science must be provable.
Science must be repeatable.

What that means si that for science to make a claim, such as global warming, They wil lhave had to conduct studies, with objective measurement. real numbers obtainable from objective sources. in the case of Global Warming, there is scientific evidence through measurement that average temperatures around the world have in fact increased. This is a fact.

It must be provable. Meaning that you have to be able to show these findings to others. You have to have the concrete evidence to back this up. you can't just say somethign and it taken as fact.

It must be repeatable. This is one of the key things. A scientific study doesn't automatically prove something. If you cannot repeat that study with the same result, across time and from various sources, it's not a good study. That means, in the case of global warming. Hundreds of different scientists from hundreds of countries of different nationalities, religions and faiths all do the same studies, they will come to the same results.

This is the case for Global warming. All the studies have been repeated for decades to form objective numbers. And all those numbers are showing is that the average temperatures and albedos in the world have increased by measurable amounts in the time since those studies started.

These are facts. you can choose to ignore those facts, but ignoring facts doesn't change that those facts still exist.

where humanity hasn't really proven yet(and we're getting closer) is the cause of this rise in global temperatures. Correlation and science studies (all done to uphold the tenents of science) have shown that it is likely (though not guaranteed or proven as fact yet) that it is our impact.

as to the world being a better place if its warmer? perhaps. the earth has survived other swings in temperatures, from extreme cold to extreme warmth. The question is, how will HUmanity handle the swings? There's a problem with the warmer temperatures causing ice caps to melt. What happens when land masses become smaller from raising water levels? what happens if the global albedo becomes to great? Will the greenhouse effect run rampant? we don't have these answers, but I would like humanity to try and avoid putting ourselves into a situation where we have to discover them.

ignoring the science behind this all, and claiming you don't believe it, isn't like religion. it doesn't cease to exist just because you stop believing in it. You can choose not to believe in global warming. Guess what, its still going to exist with or without you believing it.

And back to your point that science has been proven wrong. Absolutely. Thats the point of science. Science doesn't exist to prove itself right. Science itself is actually the practice at disproving theory. The goal of science is to take a theory, and attack it with the entire weight of objectivity to disprove it. Those theories that hold up to this barrage of attack, are theories that tend to be more likely to be true, or at least until they're proven wrong. Those that can't be proven wrong (gravity for example) are considered laws.
What you wrote is not wrong and it is true, that science has it's place. Globbal warming however is not supported by all scientists and studies that support this theory have been sponsored and promoted by powerfull entities. Science is increasingly used, like religion in past centuries, for political reasons.
 
Many..

Many, many gay people hold very high positions of power and are extremely influencial, effective and through their very being as leaders, is a game changer in all aspects of life.

Everyone is born with equal parts a little bit gay a little bit CEO...


I love you all!
 
I take your word, that you are convinced that your sexual orientation is not your choice.

However, this does not make it true for everyone.



If people are born gay, I wonder what was going on in ancient rome and greece. Why was almost everyone born gay and pedophile back then?


What would your explanation be for it then?

My background is:

Brought up in stable farming family. Father played rugby mother did women things.

Went to church on Sundays

Went to a cathedral school.

Worked hard, played hard.

Captain of the rowing team.

Studied agriculture at Edinburgh Uni

Had no gay friends, family members or friends of the family. Parents latently homophobic.

Didn't meet another gay person until I was 18.

Knew I was gay at puberty

Had more girlfriends than I could count.

Thought about killing myself more times than I can count.

Decided to stop fighting and make peace with myself.

Now couldn't be happier.

Sound like the ideal way to raise a gay?

Can't comment on Rome or Greece - wasn't there but I think you're hyperbole sing somewhat.
 
Multiple forms of sexuality was a lot more accepted back in Greece and Rome, so you had a lot more people showing it in public. It didn't mean everyone was gay or bi, but those who were indulged themselves alongside everyone else.

...and then someone came by and painted it on a pot.
There were periods where man were expected to have sex with other men. It was considered normal and most men engaged in this. I doubt they were all born homosexual.
 
you are doing just that.

you are trying to tell everyone that the part of the bible damning homosexuality should be taken at face value and is an absolute truth,

But any other part of the bible we point out that we as humans have changed, stopped following, or contradict each other, you plug your ears on and say "I'm not addressing that"

Let's see, I've written repeatedly in this forum where the Scripture says homosexuality is a sin (Lev 20), where Jesus affirms the OT Law (Matt 5) noted that there are ceremonial, judicial/civil and moral laws in the OT, noted that the ceremonial and judicial 1) only applied to the Jews (do you really need an exegesis on this? It is a very basic Christian doctrine). and 2) shown how in Acts 15 it is was strictly forbidden to force the Gentiles (all non-jews) from being held to the ceremonial and judicial laws. Moreover, gentiles were explicitly told in Acts 15 to abstain from sexual immorality.

This is what Scripture demands. It isn't rocket science. It is basic logic in law. If you don't like how a logicaly necessary reading of Scripture condemns something you approve, I'll be praying for you. I don't know what else to do for you.

you can't have it both way and are being extremely hypocritical. The fact you are completely blind to this hypocrisy is scary. The fact that despite a lot of people outright pointiong out your hypocrisy and you completely ignoring it , ONLY to point out that the bible says gayness is wrong, is not a reflection of religion, or the Bible, but in yourself and your own bigotry. You can hide behind the bible all you want, but you are the one who is using it as an excuse for your beliefs.

The Scripture demands that I condemn homosexual practices as I've outlined above. I unapologetically believe in the Scriptures and believe Christ is our Savior.

I have met many christians of varying faith. Many of them are amazing friends of mine, and many of them find you sick. Your train of thought sickening. And the way you nitpick what you want to believe from the bible, and what parts you ignore to be abhorrent to the very nature of the religion

My conscience must answer to God. The Bible commands us to handle the truth correctly. You want to dispute my interpretation, start showing me specific Scriptures.
 
What would your explanation be for it then?

My background is:

Brought up in stable farming family. Father played rugby mother did women things.

Went to church on Sundays

Went to a cathedral school.

Worked hard, played hard.

Captain of the rowing team.

Studied agriculture at Edinburgh Uni

Had no gay friends, family members or friends of the family. Parents latently homophobic.

Didn't meet another gay person until I was 18.

Knew I was gay at puberty

Had more girlfriends than I could count.

Thought about killing myself more times than I can count.

Decided to stop fighting and make peace with myself.

Now couldn't be happier.

Sound like the ideal way to raise a gay?

Can't comment on Rome or Greece - wasn't there but I think you're hyperbole sing somewhat.
No need to explain your way from farmboy to buttpirat.
I already wrote that I take your word for it. If you are convinced that you were born gay then so it is. You should have the same rights as everyone else.
 
Why would anybody choose to be gay?

"You mean so I can choose to live a life where I can be fired in half the states for who I love, not be allowed to marry in 20 states, face discrimination on a daily basis and be told by strangers that I'm burning in hell? Sign me up!"

----------



Oy, so you're one of those only have sex in marriage for the purpose of procreation types.

That is not a Scriptural doctrine. Please read I Cor. 7

----------

What a load of vague BS.

First, it is high comedy that anyone would prevent gay people from getting married because its immoral, yet curse the immorality of those who would have sex outside of marriage.

Gay rights has nothing to do with prostitution, sex trafficking, UNWANTED PREGNANCIES (ARE YOU FRICKEN SERIOUS?!?)? STDs are a problem with anyone who can't keep it in their pants. Saying that the allowance of gay rights somehow supports these problems is absolutely absurd.

You did not read carefully.
 
There were periods where man were expected to have sex with other men. It was considered normal and most men engaged in this. I doubt they were all born homosexual.

They probably didn't want to do it.

A lot of people do things they don't want to do because it's "expected" of them - especially those who come from privileged families and have their lives practically mapped out for them by their parents.

There's a difference between doing something and wanting to do it. If I forced you to have sex with a guy at gunpoint it wouldn't make you gay.
 
There were periods where man were expected to have sex with other men. It was considered normal and most men engaged in this. I doubt they were all born homosexual.

Nope. As weird as this is going to sound, there mere act of having sex with a man doesn't mean you're gay. It's a gay act, certainly, but it's being attracted to men, physically and romantically, that drives it home.

The reverse of that would be a gay man with a wife and kids. He isn't straight just because he has sex with women, he's just doing his part because of societal expectations.

It's not what someone does, but what they're attracted to that determines a persons sexuality.
 
The sad thing is that if your son or daughter were lay in bed at night tearing themselves apart inside that, no matter how hard they prayed to God they could not make themselves stop being attracted to someone of the same sex, that would be the answer you would give them.

That discussion would look very different from the kind we're having here.

No matter how much science, medicine and psychology has proved that repressing homosexual feelings can lead to extreme mental distress and is a major cause of teen suicide, you would rather stand by the teachings of some book from a few thousand years ago than your own offspring.

That's hideous.
What is hideous is failing to acknowledge that homosexuality is a form of sickness, which we do as a culture despite how much science, medicine and psychology have proven it to be connected to depression, teen suicide, and a multitude of venereal diseases. People with it need help, love and support. Those who are accepting of it need to wake up.
 
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The Scripture demands that I condemn homosexual practices as I've outlined above. I unapologetically believe in the Scriptures and believe Christ is our Savior.



My conscience must answer to God. The Bible commands us to handle the truth correctly. You want to dispute my interpretation, start showing me specific Scriptures.

You can answer to who or what you like in the after life.

Let me just give you the heads up your book of fairy stories does not trump a gay persons rights, as in the statues of Human rights under EU law.

But if by your actions a gay person suffers any discrimination, you and your fairy book would feel the full force of the LAW.

Put simply "Human rights TRUMP religious rights"
 
Let's see, I've written repeatedly in this forum where the Scripture says homosexuality is a sin (Lev 20), where Jesus affirms the OT Law (Matt 5) noted that there are ceremonial, judicial/civil and moral laws in the OT, noted that the ceremonial and judicial 1) only applied to the Jews (do you really need an exegesis on this? It is a very basic Christian doctrine). and 2) shown how in Acts 15 it is was strictly forbidden to force the Gentiles (all non-jews) from being held to the ceremonial and judicial laws. Moreover, gentiles were explicitly told in Acts 15 to abstain from sexual immorality.

This is what Scripture demands. It isn't rocket science. It is basic logic in law. If you don't like how a logicaly necessary reading of Scripture condemns something you approve, I'll be praying for you. I don't know what else to do for you.



The Scripture demands that I condemn homosexual practices as I've outlined above. I unapologetically believe in the Scriptures and believe Christ is our Savior.



My conscience must answer to God. The Bible commands us to handle the truth correctly. You want to dispute my interpretation, start showing me specific Scriptures.

What if your god doesn't exist and you spent your one and only life trying to please a god so that you will be rewarded in an afterlife that may or may not exist?

I would rather enjoy life, not hate fellow people for enjoying their lives and embracing their sexuality, and die happy knowing that I've had a full life. Carpe Diem and all that.

If there is a god and homosexuality is a sin, then god would've made sexuality a choice, but I have never chosen my sexuality. I am what I am (straight) and I've always been attracted to women.
 
Just out of curiosity, how are things different in the UK?

I'm from the Netherlands, and straight, but to give you some idea of how it's here in Europe.
LGBT rights in the Netherlands


Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender (LGBT) rights in the Netherlands have been some of the most progressive in Europe and worldwide. Same-sex sexual activity was legalized in 1811 after France invaded the country and installed the Napoleonic Code, erasing any remaining sodomy laws and no more were enacted after the country received independence. During the late 20th century, awareness surrounding homosexuality grew and society became more tolerant of homosexuals, eventually leading to its declassification as a mental illness in 1973 and ban on discrimination based on sexual orientation in the military. The Equal Rights Law was enacted in 1993, which bans discrimination on sexual orientation on the grounds of employment, housing, public accommodations, and more. After the country began granting same-sex couples domestic partnerships benefits in 1998, the Netherlands became the first country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage in 2001. Same-sex joint and step adoption are also permitted. Lesbian couples can get access to IVF as well. Although transsexuals are allowed to change their legal gender, discrimination protections on the grounds of gender identity or expression have not been explicitly enacted countrywide yet.

The Netherlands has become one of the most socially liberal countries in the world,[1] with recent polls indicating that more 90% of ethnic Dutch people view homosexuality as moral, despite only 30% and 25% of Turks and Moroccans agreeing, respectively.[2] Hindus of Indian origin are reportedly in line with ethnic Dutch in terms of acceptance.[3] Most opposition and violence against LGBT citizens stem from the Christian and Muslim communities,[4] which make up less than a quarter of the country's population.[5] Amsterdam has frequently been named one of the most LGBT friendly cities in the world,[6] famous for its many accommodations specifically pertaining to the LGBT community, including its many gay bars, bathhouses, hotels, and venues as well as Pink Point, which provides LGBT friendly information and souvenirs, and the national Homomonument, which was completed in 1987 and was the first monument in the world to commemorate homosexuals who were persecuted and killed during World War II.[7] Since then, The Hague got an international Homomonument and Utrecht got a Sodomonument, to commemorate the victims of a (rare) raid on "sodomites" in Dutch history that started in Utrecht. The LGBT community has been said to be most visible in Rembrandtplein in central Amsterdam.[8]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_...pedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_Netherlands
 
We'll have words about this later.







You say that last part as if it were a joke. I'm not laughing.


Yes, let's. I'll give you time to flick through your 2000 year old instruction manual for life to find the answer.

Yes, it was a joke. Lighten up.
 
Nope. As weird as this is going to sound, there mere act of having sex with a man doesn't mean you're gay. It's a gay act, certainly, but it's being attracted to men, physically and romantically, that drives it home.

The reverse of that would be a gay man with a wife and kids. He isn't straight just because he has sex with women, he's just doing his part because of societal expectations.

It's not what someone does, but what they're attracted to that determines a persons sexuality.

nah.. it's the sexual act that matters.. that's what makes the antis upset.

I can have a male roommate.. we share chores, bills,pets, assistance in child raising etc.. we go out to dinner together. I'm attracted to his intelligence and thinks he dresses or carries himself in a desireable fashion.. I will do most anything for him and he has my back as well.. I 'love" him.
the strongest and most powerful interpersonal unions on earth are made between men and men. (talking $ basically)

and that's all good. the religious do not have a problem at all with this and in fact, their own structures are set up similarly (brotherhood)

but the minute I put my balls in homie's mouth, it's on.. that is the point where the line has been crossed.. that is the sin. it's all about whose body I put my weiner in.
 
Im disgust from the idea of touching other man or other men touching me in a sexual way. However, I dont care if someone likes it or not, nor do I want to know. At the end, its not question of choice to like something hot entering your ass and feeling some extra balls next to yours. Its your brain thats like it. You are probably borne this way or developed it after. What cause it? I dont know. I find it strange and so I dont embrasse the whole gay thing. Notwithstanding, I dont see why someone has to be discriminated on the basis of his strangeness. Different people like different stuff. I like to **** girls, and thats what matters to me. My religion, my moral, and my brain are open for all strange things in the world, and im OK if they dont cause problems to others.

Your thoughts on the subject disgust me more than Tim's announcement disgusts you.

TRUST me, it does.
 
nah.. it's the sexual act that matters.. that's what makes the antis upset.

I can have a male roommate.. we share chores, bills,pets, assistance in child raising etc.. we go out to dinner together. I'm attracted to his intelligence and thinks he dresses or carries himself in a desireable fashion.. I will do most anything for him and he has my back as well.. I 'love" him.
the strongest and most powerful interpersonal unions on earth are made between men and men. (talking $ basically)

and that's all good. the religious do not have a problem at all with this and in fact, their own structures are set up similarly (brotherhood)

but the minute I put my balls in homie's mouth, it's on.. that is the point where the line has been crossed.. that is the sin. it's all about whose body I put my weiner in.

Rubbish.

What you're suggesting would mean that a male is gay if they are raped by a male, which is quite clearly ridiculous.
 
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