Apple CEO Tim Cook Publicly Comes Out as Gay in Letter Declaring Support for Equality

[Meister]

You know what I mean. It's one of the perks of a romantic relationship and all. Everyone want companionship like that. A person to share your feelings with physically, emotionally, and dare I say...spiritually. The Bible even celebrates it.

...and some people are punished for seeking it.

Who is being punished and by whom?

For me there is a vast differnce between sharing your feelings and performing sex acts.
And no. Not everyone likes "romance". In fact most hetero men rather have the humping part and skip the whole romancing ****.

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You certainly have in this thread. You're welcome to stop shoving at any time now.

This thread is all about who shoves what where.

 

[chown33]

First off, Renzatic, let me say thank you for putting your arguments in a thoughtful and polite manner. These are excellent and valid questions. It is very, very refreshing.

The same argument can be made that God makes it extremely hard on heterosexuals as well: forcing them to abstain until marriage and then remaining faithful even if the other spouse decides to not have sex with him or her or must work in a far away country, etc. Not everyone gets life as hard or easy as the next person. We can complain about life being tough (I know I often do), but at the end of the day, it is the reality we must deal with. When I see God, I expect I'll be one of the first asking, "Why did it have to be so hard?" I am sure either the answer will be obvious when I see God or the question won't matter. And like I said, hard or not, the right thing is the right thing and God get's to dictate what that is (assuming you believe in Him).

At this point, I have to ask: What if one doesn't believe in Him? Or believes in a different God? Or doesn't believe in any god?

Are those people bound by your morality, or are they bound by their own morality, within the limits defined by civil law? You may well believe that they are damned for their choices, and that is well within your religious right to do so. But are you also allowed to hold them to a moral code they disagree with, if their behavior you disagree with is within the limits of civil law?

If freedom of religion is a human right, then freedom to live one's own life according to that moral code is a direct consequence of that. If freedom of religion means anything at all, it means the freedom to live within one's own morality, no matter how disagreeable others in society may find it.

Of course, that morality also has to be squared with the civil laws that one lives under, so there's a definite balance between the two. That balance lies in in the insersection of moral code with civil law. It DOES NOT lie in the intersection of every religion's moral codes. In other words, no one religion, nor group of religions, gets to decide everyone else's morality; only civil law decides that, and civil law is not immutable.

Suppose some gay and lesbian people got together and organized a Church of Acceptance, in which same-sex as well as opposite-sex marriage and couples are defined to be moral. You can object all you want that they are sinful and immoral, and under your moral code you'd be completely right. But under their moral code, you'd be wrong. So who decides which one is "really" right? Civil law.

For a real-world not-so-ancient historical example, look at the early years of the Mormon Church, where polygyny was not only moral, but a duty. The Christians of that day considered it deeply immoral, as I suspect many Christans of today would. In other words, two religions had different and conflicting moral codes, and only one happened to be encoded into civil law.

Since that time, the main LDS Church has renounced polygyny, but the FLDS Church has not. And under Islam today, a man can have up to 4 wives. The thing preventing that in the US is civil law, not the moral codes of conflicting religions.

 

[Renzatic]

Who is being punished and by whom?

For me there is a vast differnce between sharing your feelings and performing sex acts.
And no. Not everyone likes "romance". In fact most hetero men rather have the humping part and skip the whole romancing ****.

Pfft. You can claim to be the dudeliest dude to ever walk the earth, but when it comes right down to it, everyone loves that whole snuggling and baby talk afterglow.

I know I do. And I'm secure enough to admit it. I love snuggy times with my softie bunnie poo.

I'll say it again. Loudly. Proudly.

I LOVE SNUGGY TIME WITH MY SOFTIE BUNNIE POO! RAAHHHH!

 

[Happybunny]

I know I do. And I'm secure enough to admit it. I love snuggy times with my softie bunnie poo.

I'll say it again. Loudly. Proudly.

I LOVE SNUGGY TIME WITH MY SOFTIE BUNNIE POO! RAAHHHH!

I would like to point out that that this BUNNY is not interested.

 

[doelcm82]

This is the whole problem I have with gays, they have to "come out" to the world that they are gay. Gays are wasting their time trying to convince the world they are normal in the sense of sexuality.

They'll never convince the whole world. As long as one person believes gay people are abnormal, the whole world is not convinced.

But wasting their time? No, you couldn't be more wrong. Coming out to your family, friends, coworkers, and even the world (if you're the kind of person that the world pays attention to) gives those people a real-life example of what a gay person is like. Then, when evil people try to spread lies about gay people, the lies are less likely to be taken seriously.

The friendly gay couple down the street with their three adorable children are a lot less scary than those strange men who dress up as nuns and roller skate around San Francisco that you see on the evening news.

 

[Renzatic]

I would like to point out that that this BUNNY is not interested.

You couldn't handle my snuggle time, Happy.

 

[Meister]

Pfft. You can claim to be the dudeliest dude to ever walk the earth, but when it comes right down to it, everyone loves that whole snuggling and baby talk afterglow.

I know I do. And I'm secure enough to admit it. I love snuggy times with my softie bunnie poo.

I'll say it again. Loudly. Proudly.

I LOVE SNUGGY TIME WITH MY SOFTIE BUNNIE POO! RAAHHHH!

 

[dec.]

The Westboro Baptist Church is just talking/trolling. They don't actually harm anyone.

Personally I think they are harming their own members and children. But that's the case with most "religions" as they tend to discourage own opinions and individuality, it just varies in degrees depending on the preferred "god"-idol.

 

[Meister]

Personally I think they are harming their own members and children. But that's the case with most "religions" as they tend to discourage own opinions and individuality, it just varies in degrees depending on the preferred "god"-idol.

Life is harmfull, abusive and results in death.

 

[dec.]

At this point, I have to ask: What if one doesn't believe in Him? Or believes in a different God? Or doesn't believe in any god?.

I agree. While it can be interesting to exchange personal opinions I don't really see the relevance of one's personal "religious" views for this topic. Obviously the term "marriage" is defined by state and laws, even the less adaptive "believers" will eventually accept this (or not, but that's really irrelevant for those who benefit from those laws).

Or in short form "my 'god' says you're a sinner!" - "yeah, so what?". /discussion

 

[NY Guitarist]

Not sure if it's "liberal", but it sure is a bulls**t story.

The oceans are measurably warmer by a substantial amount since the start of the industrial revolution.

 

[Happybunny]

You couldn't handle my snuggle time, Happy.

You're so mean, I'm going to tell my MOMMIE!!!!

 

[Meister]

You're so mean, I'm going to tell my MOMMIE!!!!

Don't cry!

 

[Happybunny]

Don't cry!

Image

Your family already dropped by in 1940.

 

[Ambush083]

You don't advertise your heterosexuality? You don't kiss your partner in public? You don't hold hands? You don't talk about them at work to colleagues? You don't say things like "we did this this weekend". That is all something I cannot do at work for fear of experiencing discrimination. You advertise your heterosexuality all the time, you just don't realize it because it is so normalized.

You clearly don't understand how societal norms evolve through time. The truth is that attitudes ARE changing because of the increasing visibility of gay people. You can look at any poll or survey and see that. You can see it in laws being passed.

When someone personally knows a gay person it becomes far more difficult to condemn them as some deviant misfit. Maybe a specific individual's views won't be swayed, but that isn't the point....

Why is it that some people have such a hard time getting past the 'individual' and observing society as a whole? I'll never get that.

Personally I could care less what you think. Mostly because you are wrong.

Yeah. You're right dude. I'm wrong and you got all the answers. Why are homosexuals so pretentious? Get over yourself you ain't all that. How can you go around expecting to be accepted everywhere?

 

[Ambush083]

You are not the only one who could care less, but for those who believe it is a sin, it is a sad thing to see. This is an emotionally charged topic and will always be so long as there are Christians around who believe in the veracity of the Scripture.

You and I are on the same page. When I said I could care less, I guess what I'm saying is I don't agree with it, but I'm also not gonna go around trying to change everyone's mindset.

 

[Irishman]

Being Hetertosexual is a natural occurrence in nature, we are born with the instinct to procreate.

And are heterosexual couples who choose not to reproduce going to hell??

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My point unclean foods were unclean before the ceremonial laws and science backs it up.

Which publications??

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Interesting. Apparently, you believe that those who are "educated", are the ones who have your own view.

I believe homosexuality is wrong, so I am stupid. And thankfully, we are dying away, so that the world will be a better place. (trying to make a point here)

There is good education, and bad education. Good education is, truth.

It's more a generational view than a religious view. And yes, that generation is dying off.

 

[Ambush083]

And are heterosexual couples who choose not to reproduce going to hell??

I read what you wrote and thought of this for some reason...

 

[Irishman]

The Hate word has become a bit of mantra for the gay lobby. Everything is defaults to "hate." I think people are wising up to the overuse and rididulous misuse of the word.

You have to remember that - for the most part - that hate is a reaction to very real pain and exclusion and mistreatment.

As human beings, we've simply got to do a better job of viewing the world from the perspective of the others (whoever they may be).

Remember that when we're hating gays or religious people.

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Two gay people in a loving, committed relationship is a contradiction in terms. If they are in it, it is not loving. It isn't what was intended for human sexuality. But you are right to say that in and of itself it has far fewer immediate and visible consequences than prostitution, but both fall short of the mark of what is right.

Complete and total ignorance on display here.

I don't know what else to say.

 

[chown33]

You have to remember that - for the most part - that hate is a reaction to very real pain and exclusion and mistreatment.

As human beings, we've simply got to do a better job of viewing the world from the perspective of the others (whoever they may be).

Remember that when we're hating gays or religious people.

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Complete and total ignorance on display here.

I don't know what else to say.

It's the viewpoint of a specific moral code. Add the words "under my moral code" to every sentence he wrote, and it makes perfect sense, under his moral code:

As Posted by brianvictor7, and as augmented by chown33:
Two gay people in a loving, committed relationship is a contradiction in terms, under my moral code.

If they are in it, it is not loving, under my moral code.

It isn't what was intended for human sexuality, under my moral code.

But you are right to say that in and of itself it has far fewer immediate and visible consequences than prostitution, but both fall short of the mark of what is right, under my moral code.
​

You're each arguing that your own moral code is the one that's "right", and the other is the one that's "wrong" (or "ignorant", or "hateful", or "INSERT DISPARAGING ADJECTIVE HERE").

Your moral codes are inherently in conflict. There's no way to win any argument about which is better or more righteous because they contain points of morality that are mutually exclusive.

One of you has the left-hand red area, and the other has the right-hand red area. The intersection of those two areas is the null set, even though the white area between them might well be common to both moral codes (e.g. the morality of human sacrifice).

 

[Irishman]

really good question. I don't know if I have the exact answer to that.I do think that religion should not be exempt of critique. They do spread bigotry, misogyny and discriminatory behavior. I am only calling them out on it.

There is a whole study about the amygdala and how the brain stop processing information in a rational way. It been show that people who are confronted about their religious beliefs triggers the amygdala and prevents rational thinking. I am not an expert of the subject. You can google it if you want.

Sooooo, what does the amygdala do in the non-religious or atheists?

 

[chown33]

Sooooo, what does the amygdala do in the non-religious or atheists?

Opposes Batman:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdala_(comics)

 

[Irishman]

I'm sorry that your experience with religious people has been foul. To be honest, mine has been foul as well.

I, like Thomas Jefferson, consider myself to be a sect of one. This is because I believe the Bible, and I believe God when He says we have a direct connection with Him. No intermediary, like a priest, pope, medium, pastor, sifu, or whatever necessary.

I try to be very conscious of how my words affect others. This is probably why my posts are so long!

So, from my perspective, to tell someone that engaging in homosexual behavior (I said behavior mind you) is acceptable, is to ensure they are God's enemy. I cannot do tha t given my beliefs. It's akin to telling someone that smoking is harmless when I know this is not the case.

But the issue is that that is not the whole story. There is love, there is compassion, there is forgiveness. There may be ways around homosexual behavior. It just so happens that is the topic of this discussion. We could interchange this with any inclination that is in conflict with what God said is right.

The key is love. Not anger. Not hatred. Love. I don't know who God will forgive, or why. But I do know that He promises to do so, if we stick to His concepts.

My disregard for homosexual behavior does not prevent me from loving a gay person, or treating them kindly, or fairly, or with dignity. To do so would be in direct contravention with God's mandate to love your neighbor!

I have long considered the scenarios presented in many outlets. I admit this is not a simple issue (for me).

So, when in doubt, I stick to the basics:

Tell people God's truth, but be as gentle as I can about it. No convincing necessary.

Again, you are free to choose your way. I don't hold the whip, I hold the keys, if you want them.

So are you open to correction when needed?

 

[Technarchy]

You have to remember that - for the most part - that hate is a reaction to very real pain and exclusion and mistreatment.

I think some people are confusing hate with disgust.

I don't hate mayonnaise, but I do find it nasty.

I don't hate milk, I find it repulsive.

So what if some people spontaneously regurgitate when seeing two men kiss, gay people are going to have to learn that is life and deal with it, because that's never going to change. Like literally never.

This isn't anything special. People don't like your skin, hair, cologne or your clothes, or your taste in beer, or whatever. Something about you furrows brows and turns up noses daily. That's far from hate. That's life on earth, yet most of us don't run around accusing people of "hate" as a result.

Want to learn about hate? Visit Mosul where Muslims are cutting off Christian baby heads while their parents watch. That's hate. Find a holocaust survivor with a whole family that has been gassed. That's real hate.

 

[Irishman]

Homosexuality does not come natural. LOL, it is not even natural! Children are not born homosexual. Children are born with the same NATURAL desire as animals! This is very elementary. I am telling you now, a male deer is NOT going to seek after another male deer. We can look at nature all around us as a stunning example!

You are blissfully unaware and may it ever be, right?