Apple Pay Apple Pay in Germany

[aplh23]

Sparkasse has no applepay plans - so dont expect Apple Pay from sparkasse at all! There will be an android app ( Not sparkasse app- it will be a new extra app just for payment ) starting end of july ( not sure about all sparkasse organisation, i think each sparkasse decide for themself if and when they wanna start). Android app will Support mastercard and ec-Card First, Visa will be added later. You Need a physical card- no Virtual cards. You will be Able to switch between cards if You got more then one.

For Apple Pay - I dont expect Apple Pay this year at all in germany. Internet, Communications, payment and a lot of other things in germany is more like a one big joke!

 

[michelmike]

Right guys, bad news. Very bad news.

Just came back from the Sparkasse event. I wasn't expecting to get a clear: "Yes, Apple Pay is coming." But wasn't expecting to hear what I did...

From the beginning: A fairly generic presentation about payment past-present-future. Then on to the interesting part: Girocard digital/mobile is due on the 30th July. That's the set launch date. From then on Girocard and MasterCard/Visa credit cards will be available within an updated Sparkasse app. That's where all the magic is going to happen. The cards are not virtual, there needs to be a physical counterpart (so a real-life card), but the cards don't have to be contactless (for customers who don't yet have contactless cards). That's the big "win".

BUT: The launch will be for Android ONLY and not for Apple. The presenter even stated: "... dieser Start hat einen kleinen Haken...". That's when I knew: Apple Pay is a no-go.

After the event I grabbed hold of him and dug a little deeper. Fact is, the Sparkasse (this is how he put it) wants access to the NFC chip and Apple won't give it to them (obviously, see Australia and the banks there). He did say that they would love to launch on iOS, but not in the current state. He also put a lot of emphasis on the fact, that the Sparkasse is not willing to pay Apple a bunch of money for the service. His argument: The Android market share is 80%, Apple about 15% in Germany. So to be honest he didn't really seem all too bothered about Apple not working. With Android they retain full control and all the money from the card payments.

So that's that. No Apple Pay in Germany (at least with the Sparkasse and not this year - as it seems). If there is a launch, it will be a lot smaller than we were all hoping for. I can't imagine the Volksbanken joining Apple Pay, so it's up to the big private banks to give it a shot.

EDIT: BTW this was a (half) public event and no NDA

Thats so sad. I hope Apple will start it with other Banks like N26 and so get the pressure on Sparkasse. I have to say tho that NFC will get more open in iOS 12 or later they just have to. I dont say payments that wont happen but for other businesses like cars they have to open it up so they can fully use NFC like they can use it with Androids today. (for example opening a car or starting a car with your phone with NFC)

 

[Mr-Fly]

DKB just send me an email that they will deliver some new AGB tomorrow changing some things about wireless Girocard, 3D Secure and some other things.
AGB will be available tomorrow in the Homebanking Inbox.

 

[Ney]

Android app will Support mastercard and ec-Card First, Visa will be added later

thats funny. There are no "EC-Cards" since 2007 - except you mean Mastercard Debit.

And oh - well... i dont think, that Boon. is a "frickle Lösung"... it works perfectly fine for me... and with Auto Top Up from my Amazon Visa i even get cashback and its very comfortable...

Bunq is nice to - i can choose if i want to pay with ApplePay Mastercard or ApplePay Maestro but okay - they have a 8€ Fee.

So at least I don't care at all if Sparkasse will support it AP.

 

[wSchabby]

Offtopic: SamsungPay has started in France. https://www.androidpolice.com/2018/04/26/samsung-pay-seems-quietly-rolled-france/

 

[Alanin]

https://www.finanznachrichten.de/na...ahlungsverkehr-durch-apple-co-bedroht-015.htm

 

[michelmike]

https://www.finanznachrichten.de/na...ahlungsverkehr-durch-apple-co-bedroht-015.htm

I was 100% sure that something like that would happen. Now they will blame it on Apple but the Banks are to late on this they should blame themselves.
[doublepost=1525028005][/doublepost]Thats also interesting, i found this link on Twitter and he said its an updatet site.

https://s-kontaktloszahlen.de/privatkunden/mobiles-bezahlen/

Some things to mark:
"Das ist eine neue App der Sparkassen-Finanzgruppe für Smartphones (Betriebssystem Android)"

"6) KANN ICH DIE APP AUCH MIT MEINEM IPHONE NUTZEN?

Nein, das ist aktuell nicht möglich.

Eventuelle diesbezügliche Aktivitäten werden Ihnen von Ihrer Sparkasse entsprechend kommuniziert."

[doublepost=1525028205][/doublepost]"3. Transaktionen bis 25 Euro zahlen Sie in der Regel ohne PIN-Eingabe. Bei Beträgen ab 25 Euro bestätigen Sie ihre Zahlung mit der Eingabe Ihrer bekannten Karten-PIN am Kassenterminal."

Thats also interesting, they wont use the on device authentication you will have to use the pin above 25 Euro on the terminal.

 

[nordmaler]

I was 100% sure that something like that would happen. Now they will blame it on Apple but the Banks are to late on this they should blame themselves.
[doublepost=1525028005][/doublepost]Thats also interesting, i found this link on Twitter and he said its an updatet site.

https://s-kontaktloszahlen.de/privatkunden/mobiles-bezahlen/

Some things to mark:
"Das ist eine neue App der Sparkassen-Finanzgruppe für Smartphones (Betriebssystem Android)"

"6) KANN ICH DIE APP AUCH MIT MEINEM IPHONE NUTZEN?

Nein, das ist aktuell nicht möglich.

Eventuelle diesbezügliche Aktivitäten werden Ihnen von Ihrer Sparkasse entsprechend kommuniziert."

[doublepost=1525028205][/doublepost]"3. Transaktionen bis 25 Euro zahlen Sie in der Regel ohne PIN-Eingabe. Bei Beträgen ab 25 Euro bestätigen Sie ihre Zahlung mit der Eingabe Ihrer bekannten Karten-PIN am Kassenterminal."

Thats also interesting, they wont use the on device authentication you will have to use the pin above 25 Euro on the terminal.

looks like we are on the the wrong operation system, now i really have to look deeper into android

 

[michelmike]

looks like we are on the the wrong operation system, now i really have to look deeper into android

No, i dont think we are BUT the German Banks are so arrogant and they belive that no one can touch them and thats the sad part. Spain, Great Britain, Ireland, France, Italy and the nordic countrys all have Apple Pay in Europe (im not that informed in that part) but i think they have the same fees like we have in Germany so why wont the banks do it? Because they are just ignorant like the typical german. (and i am a german)

 

[docfred]

Thiele sagte, er halte es beispielsweise für nicht akzeptabel, wenn manche Smartphone-Anbieter ihre Schnittstellen nicht für andere Anbieter öffneten.

Well... he's right.

That's indeed a problem because Apple locks out other payment service providers and reroutes them over Apple Pay. Not for "safety" but for fees.

 

[Alanin]

Yeah but when using Apple Pay someone has to pay for softwaredevelopment and infrastructure. It’s nothing the banks wouldn’t need when implementing all that stuff themselves.

Sure they do need to implement something on their site but not that much. And Apple is giving them a worldwide infrastructure and a way to have users work with worldwide. I do think that the payment could be slightly different in a few countries. Something Apple would have to take care about and not Sparkasse or others

Sure Apple wants money, but local banks don’t want to split theirs and going to pay for own development, updates, infrastructure etc

 

[4254126]

So my information was right... As a "wise" and powerful man once said: "So sad."

For German payments I've now moved to bunq and use boon as a backup. I'm still on the bunq premium trial, but liking it so far. The costs are steep I have to say, but it's the best option for the time being :/

 

[docfred]

Sorry, but Apple does not set up any relevant infrastructure at all. They run some servers for token exchange and that's it.

They saddle on existing payment infrastructure and do not pay for using them but charge the companies, that built and run them. Apple does not run the POS-terminals, they just use them. They don't issue own cards/accounts, you have to have one. You can not pay anywhere with Apple Pay where your physical card won't be accepted.

You just put a "virtual copy" of your physical card "in your phone". If the shop does not accept Amex, it does not matter if you hand over your card or hold your phone at the terminal. The computer says "Nope". It does not matter if Apple Pay is on the Japanese market or not, if you don't have a accepted card in your Apple Wallet.

Apple does not run any mentionable "infrastructure".


just think about, that you are able to use Apple Pay already in Germany although it has not been launched. Why? Because there is nothing much to do for Apple at all. There might be one API for the payment service provider and one for the card issuer. That's it. But they charge "Apple like" fees for.... nothing. Nothing but "hipness" and "style".

That's the truth. And I want Apple Pay too. Well at least one option to pay with my smartphone or apple watch. But Thiele is just right at this point.

 

[SenileBooster]

Hey Docfred, that’s a bit thight, don’t you think.
Pls read https://www.datenschutz-notizen.de/apple-pay-anonym-und-sicher-bezahlen-0911036/ . That is what makes ApplePay different and IMO better then everything (especially german) a Bank came up with so far. And this has nothing to do with hippness as you call it.
And yes Apple should absolutely keep its system closed as thight as it can. And if this means no ApplePay for Germany then may this as it be.

And by the way Bundesbank has nothing to say in terms of financial service rulings. This would be BaFin. Period. Much ado for nothing.

 

[docfred]

We talked about infrastructure. Not data protection. That‘s another question.

And the linked article is rather superficial.

 

[4254126]

It is a fact though that this solution by the Sparkassen/Volksbanken is not going to be the big breakthrough. When I start reading through all the conditions. I.e. if you don't have an internet connection you can only make 10 payments (which might be difficult when you're abroad), possibly payment only by PIN. Everything over 25€ needs to be confirmed by PIN and so on and so forth.

With Apple Pay you authenticate through biometric methods like fingerprint / your face, hold to the terminal and done. No limit, no PIN, no internet connection needed. Easy. And no card data is transferred. All the Sparkassen system will do is duplicate your card with all the data attached and copy that to the NFC chip on the phone. Also what do you do if your phone is lost? You'll need to replace your physical cards. With Apple Pay you just lock your phone and get a new virtual card issued / installed.

So there are plenty of reasons why Apple's implementation is "worth" it. Oh: And as a bank you don't need to spend years / lots of cash developing some mobile payment app that has all these drawbacks.

I'm now banking (no pun intended) on the big direct banks like ING, Deutsche Bank, Commerzbank, Postbank or Fintechs such as N26 to bring this to Germany. DKB is probably not going to push for Apple Pay either, as their IT / organisation is tightly connected to the Sparkassen.

On a side note / a thought: Wouldn't it be possible thanks to PSD2 for a service provider to gain access to your German bank account, connect this through an API to Apple Pay and process the payment on your behalf? That way the bank wouldn't be able to block usage of Apple Pay, right? It would be similar to Curve, just with virtual cards / mobile payments. That might also be a method to spread Apple Pay more quickly. Only question is: Who pays the final fees

 

[docfred]

The Pin entry might be due to lack of cdcvm on Android. At least I read about PIN entry on Android Pay also.

Does anyone know how boon or bunq work on Android with their own Apps?

 

[Alanin]

The Sparkasse is saying that the PIN stuff is just for security reasons. But tbh. using biometrics to do security is much more secure than an 4 digit number lot of ppl carry around on a piece of paper next to their card.

If Sparkasse is not going to support AP (even I have been told the opposite) there will be enough banks going to support it once it has been started here

 

[docfred]

Which leads us back to the question: why does Apple not want to start it here at all?

 

[Alanin]

That’s true. And in my opinion Sparkasse will start with Apple Pay when they start with their own android app.

Cause it’s still a valid reason that Apple will not start without the big players to get as much customers as possible.

 

[4254126]

And in my opinion Sparkasse will start with Apple Pay when they start with their own android app.

We've gone over this often enough and I even shared information from a source that knows what the plans are.

Apple Pay - if it does launch - won't be including the Sparkassen. That's just a fact we're going to have to live with. The only remaining question is now, if the banks that were rumoured to launch Apple Pay this year (Deutsche Bank, DKB) are still going ahead with it.

 

[docfred]

DKB is too much connected to DSGV and S-Payment. And Deutsche Bank struggles to keep alive, they are imploding at the moment. They have other problems than Apple Pay.

 

[Mr-Fly]

And I am still glad that I have gone other ways. It would be great to have my "real" Cards in Apple Pay, but with automatic Topup, who really cares I even get my Miles and More benefits, as I am recharging automatically from my MaM Card ;-)

 

[michelmike]

I dont know if its relavant but yeah.

https://twitter.com/sparkasse/status/990846303583260672

 

[Alanin]

Thats kinda ******** - they want to begin to talk to Apple when Apple Pay has been started in Germany?

We've gone over this often enough and I even shared information from a source that knows what the plans are...

Yeah and I have a source from inside of local Sparkasse Management (without talking on an semiofficial event) saying that apple pay will start this year and Sparkasse will be with them... so we do know exactly nothing...

one source and another... and if the big ones dont want to take part in Apple Pay, there is no reason apple is not going to start it here. there are a lot of players on the German market already providing Apple Pay in other countries...