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Apple Pay Apple Pay in Germany
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Dude you do not understand what examples are do you? I just took some numbers to make my point. You keep repeating yourself over and over again. You know everything and you know all better than all the other people. You talk **** about US but have you ever been there longer then maybe two weeks in your vacation? Probably not otherwise you wouldn’t make false assumptions like that. If you do know everything then enlighten us what is it that holds apple back from releasing Apple Pay in Germany or Netherlands or Austria?
I can proof my points like with the Bundesbank stats. But if someone comes up with facts, half an hour later some guy again claims "boohooo whinewhine germans don't use card payments, it's not very common".
If reading and quoting hard facts and not spreading felt but fake news is "knowing better", sorry. I'm guilty.
btw, fun fact about the US:
About half of the retail payments are made in cash and about 30% of the total amount. Just for the story of "nobody in the US uses cash... these dumb Germans".
Oh, sorry. Facts are not interesting. I know now.
Did I anywhere say the Americans don’t use cash? You seem to have a problem with correct understanding of what people write. I said I never needed cash. If you want to pay with cc in the US you can pay practically everywhere. But in Germany you simply cannot pay everywhere with card. You always need cash. If it’s in the bakery or in the gas station or in the restaurant. A service is only going to be used if it has acceptance. You say number of transactions don’t matter it’s the volume that does. Sure the might be right but first of all you need a high acceptance. And if you how a low number a transactions it proofs the point that cash payments are not widely accepted. Apple needs wide acceptance in order to earn money. After all they are a business and they want to grow.
250 Billion Euros in cashless transactions is "not widely accepted"? I think we have a problem in scales.
And I what area do you live, where you can't pay with cards at your gas station?
[doublepost=1528205496][/doublepost]And, another fact that is ignored over and over again:
Japan is a much more cash oriented country. About 22% of the GDP is held in cash. Only about 20% of the payments were made cashelss in 2015. Many shops an restaurants insist on cash.
And still, Apple Pay did launch there.
So, the theory of "low card payments -> no Apple Pay" does not hold up. Italy is another example, as we learned a few posts ago on the quoted presentation slides.
If we want to discuss Apple Pay, then correct and fact based. Thank you.
And I what area do you live, where you can't pay with cards at your gas station?
[doublepost=1528205496][/doublepost]And, another fact that is ignored over and over again:
Japan is a much more cash oriented country. About 22% of the GDP is held in cash. Only about 20% of the payments were made cashelss in 2015. Many shops an restaurants insist on cash.
And still, Apple Pay did launch there.
So, the theory of "low card payments -> no Apple Pay" does not hold up. Italy is another example, as we learned a few posts ago on the quoted presentation slides.
If we want to discuss Apple Pay, then correct and fact based. Thank you.
250 Billion Euros in cashless transactions is "not widely accepted"? I think we have a problem in scales.
And I what area do you live, where you can't pay with cards at your gas station?
Do i need to repeat myself again or will you please just read what I wrote then think about and then answer. Low number of transactions means low acceptance. Low acceptance either because market does not allow for cashless payment or cashless payment is not widely accepted by customers. Either way it’s a problem. A service can only be successful if there is demand for it. It’s only 30 percent of all payments being processed cashless. Volume does not matter in this case because you need acceptance first. How many people will actually end up eluding Apple Pay? Between 1 and 100 euros cash is the most used option to pay. Starting from 100 euros cashless payment options are exceeding cash. You should know these numbers considering you referred to the Bundesbank stats. What does this mean? It means you have even though you have a low number of transactions a high volume. But who is paying more then 100 euros each time they go shopping? Look at the stats and you see it’s people that have money. Not the 18 year old who is open to mobile payment it’s the 40 year old that’s already making lots of cash. The acceptance of cashless payment options is much much higher with younger people than with older ones. You need those young people. You need wide acceptance. You need to be able to pay the 2 euros you spent in the bakery every morning for your cup of coffe. Young people don’t go out spending a couple of hundreds of euros each and every payment they make. Young people should be the target for cashless payment but to get them to use those options you need to be able to pay cashless first. You need high acceptance in order to succeed.
You really should check your „facts“.
https://www.berliner-volksbank.de/f...s-bezahlen/kartenterminals/vrpay-kompakt.html
This is only one example and it’s kind of standard agreement and you can be sure there’s room for further down negotiated numbers. The fees don’t have to be and are not that high as some people or urban legends want to make the customers believe. Period.
And this only proves the point of so many people here...the merchants are the roadblock for card acceptance or at least the banks that don’t tell their business customers about the possibilities.
And to add about cashless payment in the us. U said 50 % are made with cash this number is not true. It’s only about 30 %. Same goes for Japan it is 38 % and not 20 % cashless payments end of 2017. if you want to stay to the facts actually use facts and don’t make up numbers.
In The Netherlands a card payment is around 19 cent, a wireless card payment 14 cent and a cash payment 25 cent.
So if you are a retailer, cash payment cost more then a card payment.
For Germany it wouldn't be a lot different then over here.
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I think if Google Pay or/ and Apple Pay launches in Germany the backerys and so on HAVE TO accept cashless thats what i dont understand. If the banks and Apple want to go to that why dont they push it with the release of Apple Pay?
Many backers in my city just recently (in the last like 5 years) switched to cashless too, but the big ones wont do it because its huges sums to invest for them, and many of the owners are rather old and think that way too i guess.
(If someone knows "Hosselmann" thats one backer in the westfalen area)
Many backers in my city just recently (in the last like 5 years) switched to cashless too, but the big ones wont do it because its huges sums to invest for them, and many of the owners are rather old and think that way too i guess.
(If someone knows "Hosselmann" thats one backer in the westfalen area)
What costs are the "25ct" for cash?
here another example:
https://www.terminaldirekt.de/zahlverfahren-und-gebuehren.html
or here:
https://www.comtelmedia.de/Ingenico-iCT-220-mtl-Miete.html
or here:
http://ec-cash-arbeitsgemeinschaft....stehen-im-elektronischen-zahlungsverkehr.html
or...
you see?
https://www.thepaypers.com/expert-opinion/payment-methods-and-practices-in-japan/772040
According to HSBC, hard cash is still the order of the day in the Land of the Rising Sun. While innovative in almost all areas of technology, Japanese have been reluctant to give up the use of liquid currency. Compared to the French, who have dematerialised 59% of their purchases, the Japanese are only at 14%. Like the Germans, Italians or Austrians, the Japanese consider cash as a source of security and anonymity, experts at HSBC attributing this to an older population who is slower in adopting new technologies.
https://rakuten.today/blog/japan-payments-emoney-edy.html
“Some 80% of retail payments in Japan are still made with cash,” says Yusaku Matsuda, who manages the Strategy Planning Group of Rakuten Edy, one of Japan’s leading e-money services.
the "urban legends" are EU laws that cut the fees to the metioned maximum. and this is what you have to calculate with, as far as you don't negotiate lower prices with the service provider.
here another example:
https://www.terminaldirekt.de/zahlverfahren-und-gebuehren.html
or here:
https://www.comtelmedia.de/Ingenico-iCT-220-mtl-Miete.html
or here:
http://ec-cash-arbeitsgemeinschaft....stehen-im-elektronischen-zahlungsverkehr.html
or...
you see?
do you have the facts linked?
https://www.thepaypers.com/expert-opinion/payment-methods-and-practices-in-japan/772040
According to HSBC, hard cash is still the order of the day in the Land of the Rising Sun. While innovative in almost all areas of technology, Japanese have been reluctant to give up the use of liquid currency. Compared to the French, who have dematerialised 59% of their purchases, the Japanese are only at 14%. Like the Germans, Italians or Austrians, the Japanese consider cash as a source of security and anonymity, experts at HSBC attributing this to an older population who is slower in adopting new technologies.
https://rakuten.today/blog/japan-payments-emoney-edy.html
“Some 80% of retail payments in Japan are still made with cash,” says Yusaku Matsuda, who manages the Strategy Planning Group of Rakuten Edy, one of Japan’s leading e-money services.
And there is one more thing to your calculation.
You simply do it wrong. You can’t say it’s a 10% margin and then subtract the fees from there on. That’s not how your business calculations work. Better yet shouldn’t be done.
You have all!!! your costs as rent, goods, energy, employees, insurance and so on including cash handling/card payments (mixed calculations) and so you may calculate a minimum price to break even. From there on you try to sell your goods for more than that price to make money out of your business as that is the ultimate goal of a business.
A retailer must count the cash, process in his administration, deposit it at the bank.
So 1 cash payment is 25 cent in cost for the retailer.
Oh and this information comes from 'Betaalverening Nederland' (Payments Association Netherlands).
Don't just quote half of the discussion and ignore the rest. Earlier I stated, that the merchant has to options:
cut the margin or raise prices. why raise prices? to get the fees into his calculation.
--> https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-pay-in-germany.2105554/page-38#post-26123101
really, man? it's getting ridiculous.
[doublepost=1528210208][/doublepost]
yeah. but it's 25ct either for 10.000€ or 1€. And just calculate ... do you really think, an ice cream man on the street serves 200 customers a day hast 50€ costs a day for counting the money?
Sure that a lobby group for payment solutions arguments againts cash. As data protection lobbyists argument for cash.
Sorry I should have known better, should I not?
Every time someone is trying to argue with you you simply ignore what one is showing you and you come up with something that maybe of some value at first glance but doesn’t hit the basket at all.
I just linked actual rates for card acceptance and payment fees by a German Volksbank. Just this one Bank as an example. And they are not as high as what you claim they are in general. Do me and all others here a favour and at least try to read what you were offered to read.
In contrast to most of the users here I really read what is written. I also check the links and try to get sources. Something you can not say about many users here. Look at the last pages.
I read your posting and I replied, what the mentioned costs are, where they come from and got you some links to prove that they are totally ususal in the market. it is nice, that the Berlin VB has a attractive offer. but it's not the only offer on the market und you still have to calculate the costs for the terminal.
it will be interesting what "Brothaus" or "Der Beck" have to say about one year after introducing card payments here. How many customers use card payments and what kind of cards.
I read your posting and I replied, what the mentioned costs are, where they come from and got you some links to prove that they are totally ususal in the market. it is nice, that the Berlin VB has a attractive offer. but it's not the only offer on the market und you still have to calculate the costs for the terminal.
it will be interesting what "Brothaus" or "Der Beck" have to say about one year after introducing card payments here. How many customers use card payments and what kind of cards.
Those prices quoted by you are only still usual because neither the merchants nor the banks are interested in a change. I can some what understand the banks it is more money for them to make out of old contracts. But the merchants, that’s just over my head.
And I must correct you. The cost for the terminal is included. And yes their is a setup fee to pay. I know that.
but it's 25ct either for 10.000€ or 1€. And just calculate ... do you really think, an ice cream man on the street serves 200 customers a day hast 50€ costs a day for counting the money?
Sure that a lobby group for payment solutions arguments againts cash. As data protection lobbyists argument fo
OMG!!! Really? A lobby group.
The Payment Accociation Netherlands is part of the Central Bank of the Netherlands, who is part of the European System of Central Banks (ESCB). Yeah just a lobby group.
I’m sorry but I can’t take you serious anymore.
Please keep ignoring everyone.
A couple op people have reacting with facts but you just react like everyone else is talking bs except you.
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The charges for traders are pretty much the same all over Europe, and Germany is not exactly a cheap place to buy, and still in most other European countries traders accept card or contactless payments without crying their eyes out. Germany got a lot better over the years, but way too many traders still only accept cash (possibly to avoid the tax man). If they want to stick to it that is fine, but tourists will go elsewhere as they rely on card payments.
@ docfred
Maybe you should dig harder and get better sources when using facts. Here you go, report from the federal reserve bank of san francisco. Scroll to page 3 and see for yourself. Numbers are from 2016. 31 % of all transactions are made cashless and hold a volume of only 8 %.
https://www.frbsf.org/cash/files/Fe...sh-Use-2016-Diary-Consumer-Payment-Choice.pdf
And for japan state of early 2018, 65 % of transactions are made with cash. Not 80 %.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Japan-s-love-of-cash-is-a-costly-business
What do all Apple Pay countries have in common? A high volume of cashless transactions, credit card acceptance and a very high number of people actually owning a credit card. Maybe you finally get it whats the deal with Apple Pay and Germany.
Maybe you should dig harder and get better sources when using facts. Here you go, report from the federal reserve bank of san francisco. Scroll to page 3 and see for yourself. Numbers are from 2016. 31 % of all transactions are made cashless and hold a volume of only 8 %.
https://www.frbsf.org/cash/files/Fe...sh-Use-2016-Diary-Consumer-Payment-Choice.pdf
And for japan state of early 2018, 65 % of transactions are made with cash. Not 80 %.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Japan-s-love-of-cash-is-a-costly-business
What do all Apple Pay countries have in common? A high volume of cashless transactions, credit card acceptance and a very high number of people actually owning a credit card. Maybe you finally get it whats the deal with Apple Pay and Germany.
So, where is your point anyway? Don't get away from the made claim "apple pay won't start in Germany because of the high cash share on the market".
Japan is the counter argument for that, that was my main point. Out of your Nikkei-Link:
And a second noticable fact out of this sheet:
Look at the cash payment ratio in Germany told by BCG.
Well? See the problem with different studies and fact sources? Numbers differ. So just don't look around to choose the numbers you like to proof your argument and ignore the rest or insult somebody, that uses different numbers.
So if we take the study of the Boston Consultig Group, which is your quoted source, Germany has cash payment ratio in the near of the US an U.K. and a much lower than in Japan.
And now... what does this say about the argument "Apple won't start Appe Pay because cash is king in Germany"?
Japan is the counter argument for that, that was my main point. Out of your Nikkei-Link:
And a second noticable fact out of this sheet:
Look at the cash payment ratio in Germany told by BCG.
Well? See the problem with different studies and fact sources? Numbers differ. So just don't look around to choose the numbers you like to proof your argument and ignore the rest or insult somebody, that uses different numbers.
So if we take the study of the Boston Consultig Group, which is your quoted source, Germany has cash payment ratio in the near of the US an U.K. and a much lower than in Japan.
And now... what does this say about the argument "Apple won't start Appe Pay because cash is king in Germany"?
And if you ask me, they are quite near to reality. If you stand at a cashier of any grocery store like Lidl, Aldi, Rewe, Edeka I do see a lot more card payments then cash. Sometimes at Aldi they have even already activated the PinPad until the customer asks for cash *fg*
And yes, there are a couple if areas where this does not work at all (like small cafes, bakeries) but even there I do see a change, sometimes they have their own bakery-card, for example. But from the overall payments I believe the number of BCG is quite near to reality, that I see.
Also with more and more banks reducing their presence, people tend to use more cards, as the next cash-Machine might be quite a way away
And yes, there are a couple if areas where this does not work at all (like small cafes, bakeries) but even there I do see a change, sometimes they have their own bakery-card, for example. But from the overall payments I believe the number of BCG is quite near to reality, that I see.
Also with more and more banks reducing their presence, people tend to use more cards, as the next cash-Machine might be quite a way away
I'm not a mod, but still: Let's not argue, please. Let's keep this thread friendly
On a side note: I do believe (it's only an opinion, not fact) that Apple will want to bring Pay to as many markets as they can. Why would they not want to? I'm sure they're working on the easy ones first if banks in Germany, Netherlands, Belgium etc. are harder to deal with than Polish or Ukrainian banks. I don't believe that they will let single countries in the EU stick out like a sore thumb. And once Google Pay launches with a bank there will be a push to get Apple Pay here as well (and with banks that aren't launching their own payment systems) such as Comdirect, ING, DKB etc.
EDIT: And I'm sure Apple won't launch without Debit (and thus Girocard) support here.
On a side note: I do believe (it's only an opinion, not fact) that Apple will want to bring Pay to as many markets as they can. Why would they not want to? I'm sure they're working on the easy ones first if banks in Germany, Netherlands, Belgium etc. are harder to deal with than Polish or Ukrainian banks. I don't believe that they will let single countries in the EU stick out like a sore thumb. And once Google Pay launches with a bank there will be a push to get Apple Pay here as well (and with banks that aren't launching their own payment systems) such as Comdirect, ING, DKB etc.
EDIT: And I'm sure Apple won't launch without Debit (and thus Girocard) support here.
@docfred
Are you freakin kidding me? My numbers are official numbers from federal bank of San Francisco itself. Those are the most accurate numbers you could get for the American market. Only numbers from fed of America could be more worth. You just pull your numbers from some ****** website that have no worth what so ever calling out some numbers without any further information or report where they actually got those numbers from. Same goes for the numbers for Japan. These are from Nikkei. Do you know what Nikkei is? Probably not other wise you would not say **** like this. My numbers are right and yours are not that’s a fact. So one last time. Germany has too much cash transactions. Compare all the countries where Apple Pay is. They have a mix of high number of credit cards, high number of non-Cash transactions and high volume of non-Cash transactions. Even in Japan credit cards are more spread than in Germany. Only about 30ish percent of people in Germany ever used a credit card. Over 50ish percent of Japanese people used a credit card. In Germany you have 50 % volume of cash payments as you stated yourself but which is achieved by 70 % of cash based transactions. Now to go back to Ukraine because I originally asked what does Ukraine have that Germany doesn’t: at the end of jan 18 over 44 % of all transactions were made cashless. Back in 2016 the number was about at the same level as it is in Germany right now with approximately 35 % with the one difference that we freakin use girocard instead of credit card. Since Apple either takes a per transaction fee or a fee depending on what you actually pay it makes sense that Apple favors countries that have a high number of cashless transactions, which happen to be made with credit card. In Germany i only see a high volume of payments made with girocard. But we do not have a high number of transactions made cashless that are actually made with credit card. Another example that Apple seems to love credit cards is Russia. You can only use Apple Pay with MasterCard or Visa cards but not with Russia „mir“. I guess that’s due to the fact that too little transactions with a too little transaction volume are being made.
But I’m done now with this discussion. There is no point in arguing with you since you are the only one who knows what he’s talking about and your facts are the only one that are right and everyone else is being stupid and lying and making stuff up. Cause if all you said happened to be true Apple Pay would have launched in Germany a long time ago. But it hasn’t. Why if everything is in favors for Germany and the numbers are right and cc doesn’t matter? Think about it ...
Are you freakin kidding me? My numbers are official numbers from federal bank of San Francisco itself. Those are the most accurate numbers you could get for the American market. Only numbers from fed of America could be more worth. You just pull your numbers from some ****** website that have no worth what so ever calling out some numbers without any further information or report where they actually got those numbers from. Same goes for the numbers for Japan. These are from Nikkei. Do you know what Nikkei is? Probably not other wise you would not say **** like this. My numbers are right and yours are not that’s a fact. So one last time. Germany has too much cash transactions. Compare all the countries where Apple Pay is. They have a mix of high number of credit cards, high number of non-Cash transactions and high volume of non-Cash transactions. Even in Japan credit cards are more spread than in Germany. Only about 30ish percent of people in Germany ever used a credit card. Over 50ish percent of Japanese people used a credit card. In Germany you have 50 % volume of cash payments as you stated yourself but which is achieved by 70 % of cash based transactions. Now to go back to Ukraine because I originally asked what does Ukraine have that Germany doesn’t: at the end of jan 18 over 44 % of all transactions were made cashless. Back in 2016 the number was about at the same level as it is in Germany right now with approximately 35 % with the one difference that we freakin use girocard instead of credit card. Since Apple either takes a per transaction fee or a fee depending on what you actually pay it makes sense that Apple favors countries that have a high number of cashless transactions, which happen to be made with credit card. In Germany i only see a high volume of payments made with girocard. But we do not have a high number of transactions made cashless that are actually made with credit card. Another example that Apple seems to love credit cards is Russia. You can only use Apple Pay with MasterCard or Visa cards but not with Russia „mir“. I guess that’s due to the fact that too little transactions with a too little transaction volume are being made.
But I’m done now with this discussion. There is no point in arguing with you since you are the only one who knows what he’s talking about and your facts are the only one that are right and everyone else is being stupid and lying and making stuff up. Cause if all you said happened to be true Apple Pay would have launched in Germany a long time ago. But it hasn’t. Why if everything is in favors for Germany and the numbers are right and cc doesn’t matter? Think about it ...