Apple Silicon Optimized Games - what's in the pipeline?

[LonestarOne]

Sigh... this is not the first thread in this place talking about this:

Let's just say... at least interest has dropped for Activision-Blizzard. No Diablo 2 Resurrected and Diablo 4 for Mac.

Three games? That’s the entire basis of your argument?

But you dismiss the 250 games that have already been ported to Apple Silicon?

The only question you should be asking is: when will we see any new game coming that's M1 native and can fully take advantage of M1 processors? I don't think any time soon. No developer/studio has announced anything as such yet. Over a year later.

That is simply false. Laminar Research has announced that X-Plane 12 will run natively on Apple Silicon. As I’ve told you before.

And then there are the 250 games that have already been ported.

That number may not be sufficient to satisfy you, but it is clearly not zero.

No Blizzard or Diablo does not equal “no games”.

 

[leman]

Let's just say... at least interest has dropped for Activision-Blizzard. No Diablo 2 Resurrected and Diablo 4 for Mac.

That's an odd thing to say given that Actitision-Blizzard was the first company to release an M1-native game. Regarding Diablo series... there is no evidence that that decision had anything to do with M1 Macs. Development on Diablo 4 started long before ARM Macs were announced.

Intel Mac enjoyed increased gaming interest due to ease of porting already existing x86 code over. Not anymore. M1 native apps are not that easy to port.

There are indeed some porting struggles mostly related to availability of some third-party commercial libraries some games use, but so far there is no evidence that there are less games released in 2021 for Mac than in previous years. Intel, ARM doesn't matter — Intel games run very well on ARM Macs.

I mean, my partner and me are currently playing our Christmas tradition game — 7 days to die — and it runs better on our M1 machines than it ever did on Intel Macs. No more weird stuttering and performance degradation. It uses OpenGL btw.

The only question you should be asking is: when will we see any new game coming that's M1 native and can fully take advantage of M1 processors? I don't think any time soon. No developer/studio has announced anything as such yet. Over a year later.

Uhm, Baldur's Gates 3? Been native and M1 optimised since when, June?

Anyway, it will take another year or two until M1-optimized games will appear in bulk. Takes some times for engines like Unity and Unreal to catch up. Regardless, I don't see the problem. Available games run very well on M1 as I mentioned above.

 

[Nugat Trailers]

Wasn't there also Disco Elysium and Myst? Total War: Rome Remastered? Timberborn?

I'd say it's not so much the lack of interest (Are you telling me that a dev team wouldn't want 'worked with Apple to release X title' on their resume?), but caution and curiosity.

And let's be honest, Activision-Blizzard's got much larger troubles than bringing games over to Mac atm.

 

[JohnHerzog]

Yeah, those sexist pigs! How dare they program scantily clad women

 

[leman]

Yeah, those sexist pigs! How dare they program scantily clad women

I really hope this was some sort of very bad joke made during a moment of poor judgement.

 

[throAU]

Unfortunately, gaming would remain a dream for Mac users. Even for Intel Macs there is a small selection of games especially when compared to the windows side.

That's because prior to apple silicon, pushing intel based MacBooks to do anything even moderately stressful enough to engage the discrete GPU has been a total dumpster fire of fan noise and heat; and the integrated intel GPUs are hot garbage.

 

[throAU]

Video game development cycle is typically 3-5 years.

So assuming game dev buys they Apple TDK on July 2020 then expect any Universal 2 binary game to be out by mid 2023-2025.

I think that's a little pessimistic. Most game engines are written in C/C++ for the most port (not assembly any more) and the artwork - graphics, audio, music, 3d modelling and level design take a huge amount of the work.

Porting the game engine to a different CPU architecture these days (especially given we've been through a few decades now of differing CPU arch for the consoles - ps3/xbox360/switch are all non-x86, mobile/tablet is all ARM) developers would have to be insane to not have written their engine with portability in mind.

It won't be zero effort, but it will be a HEAP less effort than a full game development cycle. All the artwork, music, modelling, etc. is already done.

Like... a few weeks of solid work most likely (to get up and running, more for tuning - source: Doom 2016 being ported to Vulkan would be similar effort to porting another engine to Metal) - given the power of the platform is in the ballpark and they're not going to be having to scale graphics/sound/3d assets down to fit into something like say... the switch. The CPU arch is really not as big an issue as you may think. Because people are not bit bashing with assembly any more, and anyone writing a game engine in C, post 2010 or so without regard to future porting to ARM or elsewhere for the mobile market should be fired.


Hell, if the game engine supports vulkan on PC, they could shim with moltenVK even. Which would be less work than the porting of Doom 2016 to Vulkan was.

 

[throAU]

So what? As long as it looks and plays like a native MacOS game, I don’t care. Can you please explain in detail why it’s a bad thing for more iOS and iPadOS games to come to the Mac?

Here here. Have actually been enjoying Fantasian on my shiny new M1-Pro.

As far as touch controls go... sure, but that mostly translates into mouse clicks. But also, its been several years since iOS games have had controller support. Which the Mac also has.

Pair an Xbox or PS4 controller and enjoy.

 

[throAU]

Let's just say... at least interest has dropped for Activision-Blizzard. No Diablo 2 Resurrected and Diablo 4 for Mac.

Intel Mac enjoyed increased gaming interest due to ease of porting already existing x86 code over. Not anymore. M1 native apps are not that easy to port.

I don't think that's in any way related to M1 as they could/would just release an intel version and it would work with the 90% of the adequately performing Mac market on intel and cover the M1 based machines as well.

No, I think the lack of a Mac port for D4 is purely based on the prior sales of Mac games over time - on intel. For now Activision are holding off. If anything, having actual performant hardware in the best selling Mac segment (laptops) is a plus, but that's yet to be shown to justify them bothering any more.

 

[Romain_H]

Intel Mac enjoyed increased gaming interest due to ease of porting already existing x86 code over. Not anymore. M1 native apps are not that easy to port.

That is completely wrong. All of it

 

[diamond.g]

I think that's a little pessimistic. Most game engines are written in C/C++ for the most port (not assembly any more) and the artwork - graphics, audio, music, 3d modelling and level design take a huge amount of the work.

Porting the game engine to a different CPU architecture these days (especially given we've been through a few decades now of differing CPU arch for the consoles - ps3/xbox360/switch are all non-x86, mobile/tablet is all ARM) developers would have to be insane to not have written their engine with portability in mind.

It won't be zero effort, but it will be a HEAP less effort than a full game development cycle. All the artwork, music, modelling, etc. is already done.

Like... a few weeks of solid work most likely (to get up and running, more for tuning - source: Doom 2016 being ported to Vulkan would be similar effort to porting another engine to Metal) - given the power of the platform is in the ballpark and they're not going to be having to scale graphics/sound/3d assets down to fit into something like say... the switch. The CPU arch is really not as big an issue as you may think. Because people are not bit bashing with assembly any more, and anyone writing a game engine in C, post 2010 or so without regard to future porting to ARM or elsewhere for the mobile market should be fired.


Hell, if the game engine supports vulkan on PC, they could shim with moltenVK even. Which would be less work than the porting of Doom 2016 to Vulkan was.

IIRC Doom 2016 was always a Vulkan title. id Software always uses "open sourced" API's for their engines (at least for the PC version).

And some developers (say 343 Industries) have no real reason to make their game engines support portability (assuming you mean can run on things not x86).

 

[throAU]

IIRC Doom 2016 was always a Vulkan title. id Software always uses "open sourced" API's for their engines (at least for the PC version).

Nope, the vulkan port was a few weeks/months after the release (remember it because I was a PC RX480 (and later Vega 64) user and Vulkan provided a HUGE boost to performance for me).

Vulkan was still very, very new at the time and the Vulkan port of Doom was one of the first ports.

 

[diamond.g]

Nope, the vulkan port was a few weeks/months after the release (remember it because I was a PC RX480 (and later Vega 64) user and Vulkan provided a HUGE boost to performance for me).

Vulkan was still very, very new at the time and the Vulkan port of Doom was one of the first ports.

The first release was OGL? Wow, I missed that (I didn't actually get the game until much later, lol).

 

[throAU]

The first release was OGL? Wow, I missed that (I didn't actually get the game until much later, lol).

Nah it was DirectX only IIRC.

edit:
actually you might be right. I haven't run it in a while and don't have it installed so forget if openGL was even an option? But... knowing ID it probably was?

The vulkan performance boost was properly massive though from memory. like 40% if I recall on (then current) AMD hardware.

 

[diamond.g]

Nah it was DirectX only IIRC.

edit:
actually you might be right. I haven't run it in a while and don't have it installed so forget if openGL was even an option? But... knowing ID it probably was?

The vulkan performance boost was properly massive though from memory. like 40% if I recall on (then current) AMD hardware.

I know that the xbox versions were DirectX, but as far as I am aware id never released a PC game (engine) using that API it had always been OGL (now Vulkan).

 

[throAU]

I know that the xbox versions were DirectX, but as far as I am aware id never released a PC game (engine) using that API it had always been OGL (now Vulkan).

Yup. They were always openGL. But... Carmack wasn't involved in Doom 2016. Either way. The point was that porting it to vulkan took ID a couple of weeks/months.

Porting a modern game engine from one graphics API to another (especially a modern one like Vulkan or DX12 to metal or vice versa) is not the nightmare it would have been porting from say, DX9 to Playstation 2...

 

[Queen6]

TBH I think it's simply a financial decision by the studios, more so the publishers. M1 Mac's are what they are a minority within a minority. End of the day companies follow the money.

Not to say with the performance now available on Apple Silicon the gaming situation wont improve on the Mac, it may. That said the vast majority of people willing to spend $2K upwards for a gaming experience are very likely to opt for a Windows system due to the vast catalogue of games available simple as that.

Personally I'm at peace with it I have an M1 Mac which I'd use for work purpose and a PC that can cover both work & gaming. If I wanted be solely Mac I'd have to put a lot into an M1 MBP and loose the ability to play the majority of games I enjoy, nor native for the most part...

I have very few games installed on the M1, mostly older games that have been generously ported by dedicated individuals to Apple Silicon so in a pinch I can kill some time if we're ever allowed to travel freely again.

Q-6

 

[throAU]

Not to say with the performance now available on Apple Silicon the gaming situation wont improve on the Mac, it may. That said the vast majority of people willing to spend $2K upwards for a gaming experience are very likely to opt for a Windows system due to the vast catalogue of games available simple as that.

Personally I'm at peace with it I ha

Yeah, I'm "at peace" with it but hopeful. I have a desktop gaming PC to scratch that itch, but would like to get rid of it if I can

Genuinely, I think that the lack of fan noise, better battery life, less heat and actual acceptable GPU on the Air (both current, and moving forward) for casuals may actually create a market (but it will take time obviously).

if not, there's the iOS cross compatibility for the meantime.

 

[diamond.g]

Yeah, I'm "at peace" with it but hopeful. I have a desktop gaming PC to scratch that itch, but would like to get rid of it if I can

Genuinely, I think that the lack of fan noise, better battery life, less heat and actual acceptable GPU on the Air (both current, and moving forward) for casuals may actually create a market (but it will take time obviously).

if not, there's the iOS cross compatibility for the meantime.

The lack of official support for some iOS games on macOS is also confusing (looking at you Genshin Impact/CoD:Mobile). I really wonder how much extra it would cost to flip the switch to allow the game to run on macOS.

 

[Queen6]

Yeah, I'm "at peace" with it but hopeful. I have a desktop gaming PC to scratch that itch, but would like to get rid of it if I can

Genuinely, I think that the lack of fan noise, better battery life, less heat and actual acceptable GPU on the Air (both current, and moving forward) for casuals may actually create a market (but it will take time obviously).

if not, there's the iOS cross compatibility for the meantime.

I have a W10 gaming notebook that I repurposed as a workstation which plays all I want reasonably well, having a solid dGPU. My M1 is the 13" MBP as I'm in a hotter climate being better served by the active cooling and battery capacity. Also helpful if you game from time to time, equally that's not it's purpose.

With a gaming only budget I'd opt for a dedicated Windows gaming system, suitably stripped down of MS clutter I'd like it to be different, it's not and if you want to game it's the better solution in the short to midterm.

Q-6

 

[JMacHack]

purely based on the prior sales of Mac games over time - on intel.

they’re trying to save money for the lawsuits.

That said the vast majority of people willing to spend $2K upwards for a gaming experience are very likely to opt for a Windows system due to the vast

$2k is just enough for a gpu anymore.

 

[Adarna]

I think that's a little pessimistic. Most game engines are written in C/C++ for the most port (not assembly any more) and the artwork - graphics, audio, music, 3d modelling and level design take a huge amount of the work.

Porting the game engine to a different CPU architecture these days (especially given we've been through a few decades now of differing CPU arch for the consoles - ps3/xbox360/switch are all non-x86, mobile/tablet is all ARM) developers would have to be insane to not have written their engine with portability in mind.

It won't be zero effort, but it will be a HEAP less effort than a full game development cycle. All the artwork, music, modelling, etc. is already done.

Like... a few weeks of solid work most likely (to get up and running, more for tuning - source: Doom 2016 being ported to Vulkan would be similar effort to porting another engine to Metal) - given the power of the platform is in the ballpark and they're not going to be having to scale graphics/sound/3d assets down to fit into something like say... the switch. The CPU arch is really not as big an issue as you may think. Because people are not bit bashing with assembly any more, and anyone writing a game engine in C, post 2010 or so without regard to future porting to ARM or elsewhere for the mobile market should be fired.


Hell, if the game engine supports vulkan on PC, they could shim with moltenVK even. Which would be less work than the porting of Doom 2016 to Vulkan was.

Given how unpopular Macs are for any sort of gaming then it is realistic to seeing any sort of triple A titles by 2023-2025.

My point of view is grounded in the global reality and not the limitation of my mother's basement or my friends' father's attic.

 

[leman]

Given how unpopular Macs are for any sort of gaming then it is realistic to seeing any sort of triple A titles by 2023-2025.

I do not understand these claims that Macs are unpopular for "any sort of gaming". You are an avid role-playing or simulation games fan? Then you have very good chances that your game is supported on macOS.

 

[diamond.g]

I do not understand these claims that Macs are unpopular for "any sort of gaming". You are an avid role-playing or simulation games fan? Then you have very good chances that your game is supported on macOS.

What I find interesting is a lot of games that exist on both Steam and EGS, that have a macOS version, only have the macOS version on Steam and not EGS. I wonder why that is.

 

[leman]

What I find interesting is a lot of games that exist on both Steam and EGS, that have a macOS version, only have the macOS version on Steam and not EGS. I wonder why that is.

Because EGS sucks and should just die already.