ARM based MacBook Pro discussion [merged]

[maflynn]

Some of the biggest criticisms of Apple's education offerings - including the latest education push is that school districts are not going to get on board with tablets and their fragile exposed screens. The latest iPad is $329 and that comes with more storage than most students will need.

google has gotten quite a large foothold in the EDU market. Apple cannot compete with cheap no frills chromebooks that seem a but more sturdier then iPads. I say seem but I haven't used them.

 

[bigtomato]

Its always about cost and savings...if they build an ARM they can use the same chip from iPhone and make a boatload of money and no hassle to redesign things. Its a shame because these systems will not be expandable like intel based, rather upgraded each year and will have to dish out for a new one each time just like your iPhone.

 

[maflynn]

Its always about cost and savings...if they build an ARM they can use the same chip from iPhone and make a boatload of money and no hassle to redesign things. Its a shame because these systems will not be expandable like intel based, rather upgraded each year and will have to dish out for a new one each time just like your iPhone.

Agreed, and also consider that this gives Apple even more control over the supply chain. Given that Tim Cook is considered a supply chain expert, it should not come as a surprise that apple may embrace this.

 

[oldmacs]

B) never happening ever in the lifetime of apple because USB C and thunder port 3 is superior in every way possible. And you can buy an adapter

Nup. Magsafe is superior. Has a charging light so you know when the laptop is actually charging and when it is charged. It prevents tripping over power cables when charging (has saved me many times), the snap action of the magnetic connector is great as well. Those adaptors don't come close to how good MagSafe is.

 

[maflynn]

Nup. Magsafe is superior

Yup, it saved my laptop a number of times.

 

[Fishrrman]

bigtomato wrote in #44 above:
"Its always about cost and savings.."

No.
With Apple, these days, the move to ARM is about CONTROL, not "cost".

They want to rein us into a "walled garden" with Mac OS the same as they do to users of iOS (which I've never touched and won't use).

THAT'S what it's all about...

 

[sunapple]

I highly doubt ARM Macs will be here anytime soon, especially since the article stated the following:

However, it's possible the rumor about ARM chips in Macs has been spun out of context: the Touch Bar on Apple's latest MacBook Pro is already powered by an ARM-based T1 chip as a companion processor, suggesting this could be the actual origin of ARM-based rumors. Indeed, Apple said last year that it had no plans for Macs powered solely by ARM chips, rather than Intel processors.

 

[Ma2k5]

Now we just need Apple to implement a simplified version of this with their power cables . This way, no compromises made to the USB-C ports and we have warranty coverage as not 3rd party.

 

[PeterJP]

Its a shame because these systems will not be expandable like intel based, rather upgraded each year and will have to dish out for a new one each time just like your iPhone.

Well, try upgrading or expanding a macbook or a macbook pro. You can do it using the port(s). If they put one TB/USB-C on this ARM machine, expandibility is on par with the macbook. If they put two, it's on par with the non-touchbar 13" MBP.

 

[Macbookprodude]

Quick question: What can be upgraded on a 2017/2018 MacBook Pro besides the storage drive ?

 

[Saturn1217]

A permanent move to ARM will probably mean I have to move to a different platform. So I'd rather get one more Macbook Pro before that happens...

Given the impact this could have on developers and that unlike the move to Intel chips from PowerPC back in 2006, this move would be worse not better for developers, I suspect that the transition off Intel will be very gradual. Hopefully Apple has a couple years where consumer Macbooks are on ARM but Macbook Pros are still on Intel.

 

[PeterJP]

Quick question: What can be upgraded on a 2017/2018 MacBook Pro besides the storage drive ?

I don't think you can even upgrade the storage drive on the '16-'17 models. Macupgrade only sells kits up to the 2015 models.

 

[Sterkenburg]

Quick question: What can be upgraded on a 2017/2018 MacBook Pro besides the storage drive ?

Not even the storage drive, unfortunately, as it is soldered on all the TouchBar models. The non-TB 13" has a removable SSD, but it's a proprietary module and afaik there aren't any upgrade kits available.

For the foreseeable future, external devices (SSDs, eGPUs, etc.) will be the only way to expand/upgrade the MBP.

 

[hajime]

A permanent move to ARM will probably mean I have to move to a different platform. So I'd rather get one more Macbook Pro before that happens...

Given the impact this could have on developers and that unlike the move to Intel chips from PowerPC back in 2006, this move would be worse not better for developers, I suspect that the transition off Intel will be very gradual. Hopefully Apple has a couple years where consumer Macbooks are on ARM but Macbook Pros are still on Intel.

As Apple seems to care almost mostly iOS devices, as long as the ARM based laptops can code iOS devices, do they really care about the Intel based Mac?

 

[maflynn]

A permanent move to ARM will probably mean I have to move to a different platform. So I'd rather get one more Macbook Pro before that happens...

Given the impact this could have on developers and that unlike the move to Intel chips from PowerPC back in 2006, this move would be worse not better for developers, I suspect that the transition off Intel will be very gradual. Hopefully Apple has a couple years where consumer Macbooks are on ARM but Macbook Pros are still on Intel.

I can apple having a professional class machines. I don't think we'll see them embrace ARM completely. I mean why spend all this time, energy and money on creating a new modular Mac Pro if they're abandoning the platform? The same goes for the iMac Pro.

I think like MS, we'll see a consumer grade ARM based laptop

 

[Macbookprodude]

Not even the storage drive, unfortunately, as it is soldered on all the TouchBar models. The non-TB 13" has a removable SSD, but it's a proprietary module and afaik there aren't any upgrade kits available.

For the foreseeable future, external devices (SSDs, eGPUs, etc.) will be the only way to expand/upgrade the MBP.

Ouch.. And this is Apple's idea of portability ? cables hanging out like ragula(spaghetti).. If I upgrade from the 2012 it will be probably a 2013 or 2014 retina. I like freedom to expand internals.

 

[PeterJP]

Ouch.. And this is Apple's idea of portability ? cables hanging out like ragula(spaghetti).. If I upgrade from the 2012 it will be probably a 2013 or 2014 retina. I like freedom to expand internals.

With the retina models, you can only upgrade storage using specific proprietary modules. If you want full expandibility internally, you'll have to go back to 1990s style fat windows laptops.

 

[alex0002]

There is a good chance I will get a 2015 refurb 15 inch and wait and see. I'm running VMs in VMware fusion and want to be able to test the same OS we have running in the server world. Right now this means x86_64 based OS support.

Perhaps Apple will stick with Intel for the high end and offer some better options than what I'm seeing now as far as keyboards and other considerations go. Might end up with Linux on a non Apple notebook, but the Apple trackpad amd macOS battery life keeps me coming back to the MacBook Pro.

 

[maflynn]

There is a good chance I will get a 2015 refurb 15 inch and wait and see

I know what you mean, but even at refurb pricing, I'm personally having a hard time spending that much money on what amounts to be a 3 year old computer (at least 3 year old tech). I've poked around on craigslist and found at times some potential machines. The issue for me is, getting a 2015 model, just kicks the can down the road, and I'm not sure I like what is coming down the road with Apple. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Stingray454]

I'm quite torn at the moment. I don't like the way apple is heading lately (buggy releases, touchbar is horrible, no ports / tons of dongles, keyboard issues and so on). And ARM macs sounds like a horrible idea to be honest, I like being able to dual boot win/linux or run vm's efficiently.

I've evaluated Linux for a while, that feels like a good alternative to OS X, although more buggy. I'm confident given 2-3 more years the linux desktop will be caught up in most areas, but right now it has a ton of annoyances that OS X doesn't have. Sure, you have to weigh in the freedom och choice in hardware as well, but still I'm leaning toward a 2018 MBP that I might dual boot, and then maybe jump ship in a year or two if things doesn't get better. I'll be hoping for some hardware updates during tonights event, but I don't hold very high hopes for that coming true.

 

[maflynn]

I'm quite torn at the moment. I don't like the way apple is heading lately (buggy releases, touchbar is horrible, no ports / tons of dongles, keyboard issues and so on). And ARM macs sounds like a horrible idea to be honest, I like being able to dual boot win/linux or run vm's efficiently.

I gotta believe any ARM based laptops will be a light/low cost option and apple will keep selling intel based computers. Heck they just released the iMac Pro so that would be a foolish move if they plan on leaving intel in a year or two.

I've evaluated Linux for a while, that feels like a good alternative to OS X

I've been playing with Linux and 18.04 LTS version of Ubuntu is really solid. What stops me by and large is lack of apps, for instance, there's no way for me to use GotomyPC and that's the only tool I can use to remotely access my work computer. My company blocks all other means to remotely access, so its gotomypc or nothing. That's a show stopper for me. I suppose I could run windows (or macOS) in a vm for that, but at that point, why wouldn't just run windows or macOS natively ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[bluecoast]

Using Steve's metaphor of the Truck, I will explain why Apple won't be leaving Intel for at least half a decade.

1. The iPhone is a sports car. It gets many things done quickly, but it has no towing capacity. It can only carry two people. It's a one person car that moves quick and gets light things done. It's sleek and sexy. Fun for showing off.
2. The iPad is a small truck. It does A-B and carries a heavy load, but it has a small bed and carries only two people. It'll get the job done, but it isn't luxurious nor is it gonna tow anything. It is great for moving a couch, not moving a boat.
3. The MacBook is a coupe. It can carry four people, but it still only has two doors. The engine is underpowered typically, but it saves on fuel consumption. Like a hybrid, the utility is in fuel consumption vs range. MacBooks are great for basic computing that requires a full sized keyboard. But beyond that, it's just a hybrid.
4. The MacBook Pro is a Sedan. It has four doors, carries lots of people and has tons of space and room. Larger screens, keyboards, frames. Engine/Processor is more powerful to carry this extra weight. It's luxurious and powerful and some sedans can tow if you get the V8-V12 (i7 with 16GB RAM).
5. The iMac is basically an SUV. It's large and clunky and not very portable. Fuel conservation? I'm plugged into the wall/a massive steel frame with wheels. It is about doing load and carrying several people. It's a work horse that typically is great for long hauls with the kids. Other than that, it's an SUV.
6. The iMac Pro/Mac Pro are Heavy Duty trucks or Tractor Trailers with V-12 engines and could care less about fuel conservation. They are about RAW POWER. Bit crunching and data driven, these machines plow through anything thrown at them. No portable machine can match their output.

1-3 on this list can operate with an ARM, as their purpose is portability over power.
But ARM has shown incapable (so far, that may change with A12) of handling pure RAW bit crunching like an i7 with 32GB. As RISC processors become commonplace, people are finding ways to overcome Intel's CISC monopoly. Apple is leading that charge, but the A series still lacks the RAW power of Intel's x86-64 CISC.

But Intel has made the fatal mistake of throwing money at a problem they identified 15 years ago as unsolvable. Eventually, Moore's Law calculates that the amount of money spent on advancing the speed doubles until it collapses before curving back up again astronomically in an S-Wave. Intel is now beginning the steep climb necessary to continually meet Moore's Law. Also, the Motherboard has to balloon to create more complex registers to meet the demand of the increasing need for more CPUs (CPU Quantity vs Quality.

Meanwhile 90% of processor architecture is moving to RISC, because it allows for more common registers and the motherboards can be ridiculously tiny (CPU Quality vs Quantity). RISC will complete the same instructions in the ballpark same amount of time as a CISC (within 10-30 seconds), but with half the processors. Sure, you need more RAM but RAM is like Vodka in Russia.

It will take Apple 5 more years of steady and consistent development to create a processor for 4-6.

Just go ahead and buy the machine and quit listening to Bloomberg and their awful journalism.

That's a great summary of the issue, one of the best that I've ever read.

Some questions though:

Mac Pro
Why do you think that Apple are taking so long to create a Mac Pro if ARM isn't involved in this in some shape or form?

Initially I thought that this meant it was planning a 100% ARM Mac Pro, but I wonder if we'll see ARM being used with Intel in conjunction to drive macOS and its apps, so that Apple has an 'upgrade path' to finally transition the machine fully to ARM when they have fast enough chips.

It shouldn't take them 18 months or so to create a headless workstation computer, surely?

That's why I suspect that something similar to the above is in development.

iMac
Do you not think that the iMac will go to ARM pretty quickly at the 21 inch screen 4k end?

Most of the components that could power a MacBook could be used for these computers, surely?

I wouldn't expect that the iMac 5ks to move to ARM - but who knows, maybe they might. Those machines are obviously aimed at graphic and web designers so maybe an ARM processor will be able to handle that sort of work sooner than we think.

Whatever the case, I think that the transition to ARM will create a clear divide between Apple's consumer and pro computers in the first few years.

I contend that that's a good thing, as it will (hopefully) take the agonising decision making out of buying an Apple laptops as it should be fairly clear what the proposition for each machine is.

Although it'll be sad for people like us on these forums as we won't have so much to debate!

 

[Stingray454]

I gotta believe any ARM based laptops will be a light/low cost option and apple will keep selling intel based computers. Heck they just released the iMac Pro so that would be a foolish move if they plan on leaving intel in a year or two.

While this makes a ton of sense, Apple doesn't always take sensible decisions . I'm not 100% convinced they won't completely abandon x86. But I do believe the transition would take several years so even with newly released x86 hardware, they would stay relevant for the foreseeable future. If they do decide to ditch x86 completely, I'm almost certainly out though.

I've been playing with Linux and 18.04 LTS version of Ubuntu is really solid. What stops me by and large is lack of apps, for instance, there's no way for me to use GotomyPC and that's the only tool I can use to remotely access my work computer. My company blocks all other means to remotely access, so its gotomypc or nothing. That's a show stopper for me. I suppose I could run windows (or macOS) in a vm for that, but at that point, why wouldn't just run windows or macOS natively ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, the lack of software is an issue. While I for example vastly prefer Photoshop for image editing to Gimp or other programs, it doesn't run super well under Linux (wine). I mean it works and I can do some basic editing, but it's a bit unstable and crashes from time to time. I have after some digging found viable alternatives to all the software I need for work, but the difference in quality is noticeable. PS, isn't there a Java applet version of GotomyPC that you can run in the browser? If so that should work fine on ubuntu.

 

[PowerGala]

If ARM is in Macintosh’s future, I think it will take a multi-architectural approach like every other OS and not mean the death of x86.

Or at least not right away. While Apple’s custom chips are really cool, I don’t think they’re at a place to replace x86. If I had to guess, the MacBook Air, baseline MacBook, Mac mini and baseline iMac could all go ARM. I think that the MacBook Pro, 5K iMac, iMac Pro and Mac Pro will stay x86 for the foreseeable future.

 

[maflynn]

I don’t think they’re at a place to replace x86.

But yet Intel is just struggling to meet their deadlines and the level of innovation built into the those processors have suffered because of Intel's woes.