ARM based MacBook Pro discussion [merged]

[Number 41]

Apple is moving on from Intel because Intel isn’t moving anywhere

https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/3/17191986/apple-intel-cpu-processor-design-competition

Interesting article on the possible move. Think of it; every time there're frustrations about Mac updates (like lack of updates) it's because of Intel. These last years the update cycle was not very impressive and not very fast. Meanwhile, Apple chips for iOS devices are developing at a much higher speed.

Personally, I think computing will become fully seamless between devices. Sometimes I wonder why I can't continue using a certain app when I switch from my iPhone to my MacBook. Universal apps that are a rumored topic for WWDC are a first step, using the same processor architecture is an almost inevitable next step. Should mean software is also going to be seriously revamped.

I love thinking about these possible changes and I'm excited for the future.

The future is frequently similar to the past.

And the past of Apple being alone, on an island, when it comes to chip architecture (v. the entire rest of the planet using Intel chips) wasn't good.

There's a reason Intel dominates the market -- they're simply better at this than everyone else and their market share is so big that there's no money out there in supporting a competitor.

 

[alecgold]

Cutting edge research comes from partnerships with academia. Not simply by buying companies and doing closed wall research the way Apple does. Intel, AMD, NVIDIA are where they are today because of partnerships with academia.

https://www.nsf.gov/pubs/2017/nsf17597/nsf17597.htm

Apple went from outright beating the competition in GPU performance to trading blows with Snapdragon 845. It says quite a bit that Apple can lose the performance crown so easily in span of less than 4 years.

Only thing you don’t seem to take into account is the power consumption of the snapdragons. They seem to drain batteries at an alarming (almost destructive) rate when pushed to the maximum. Just the peak performance is a nice easily calculated figure, but power consumption in real use is just as important but much harder to determine with a web based test.

About the academia, you don’t think Intel, AMD and NVIDIA are giving away their millions (if not billions) costing research they have with universities and institutions? It’s all either hushed up or extensively protected with IP-rights.

 

[sunapple]

The future is frequently similar to the past.

And the past of Apple being alone, on an island, when it comes to chip architecture (v. the entire rest of the planet using Intel chips) wasn't good.

There's a reason Intel dominates the market -- they're simply better at this than everyone else and their market share is so big that there's no money out there in supporting a competitor.

So because Intel is so big, it’s no use trying to make better chips? Competition is very possible from Apple and always good for a market like this where there’s one manufacturer who controls most of the market.

Apple from the past wasn’t nearly as big and powerful as it is today, therefore I don’t see the same things happening again.

There’s a lot of good arguments in that article that you didn’t respond to.
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I have to say - In the circles of business people I know that dual boot and virtualize Windows, this is quite a risk Apple is running if they really go down this route.

For many users, the Intel switch and optionality of Windows usage on Mac hardware was a key reason the Mac ever became a viable option for them.

Granted - We are years down the road now, but I'm not sure how different that type of users needs are vs then.

Windows 10 for ARM already exists and can run full Windows apps. Wouldn't it in theory be possible to dual boot this system on an ARM macOS machine?

https://www.howtogeek.com/309119/what-is-windows-10-on-arm-and-how-is-it-different-from-windows-rt/

 

[organicCPU]

I see MORE of a problem in the rumors that the Mac OS will be merged into iOS -- converting the Mac into the same "walled garden" platform that the iPhone and iPad are in.

That's my biggest fear, too! There are so many users only installing from the Mac App Store and fearing the world beyond, that the Mac might become a silly baby computer after further transition to ARM or wherever, too.
It already has begun in the name of security and DRM. The output of 'iotop' gets obfuscated, even if SIP is turned off, just because someone could spy out the protection of some piece of downloaded music. I'd like to get some control and insight back and I'm not sure if Apple will ever going to make this happen.

I'm probably the only Mac user you'll ever meet who has never owned an iPhone, iPod, iPad or Apple Watch -- and probably never will.

Except of a Classic iPod, we're two at least. As long as there is no integrated jailbreak-like function for advanced users to release the power of these portable computers, there will be no deal with me.
It's not the ARM processor that is the problem, it's the iOS platform concept. It might be designed for easy computing – in theory – but I just don't know of a single person that is able to completely follow the logic behind.

There’s no doubt Apple has MacOS running on an A11. It’s not even up for debate. The question is how does it perform. And can Apple scale the platform and subsystems up and down for the next two or more decades.

And if all the third-party developers of useful software can manage the transition is in question, too. We've lost some of our valuable PPC tools at the time when Apple deleted Rosetta from Mac OS X without making it open source. I guess the same story would happen again, if Apple would ever deploy ARM as the only processor in the Mac architecture.

dual boot and virtualize Windows

That might get really problematic, too. IMHO, emulation is in most cases no serious substitution of virtualisation or native execution of vivid platforms. ARM chips won't be capable of emulating x86 in realtime in the foreseen future. The question is, if we'll really need that capability or not. I can imagine that there will be some Computer as a Service strategy that is backing up that lack. With the rise of fast mobile networks, like 5G, one could utilise some powerful cloud computing that just uses your device as display and data interface. Although, I'd prefer an offline solution, I don't think that windows will get compiled for ARM soon, but who knows ;-)

 

[Merode]

I don't think that windows will get compiled for ARM soon, but who knows ;-)

Windows is already running on ARM https://www.engadget.com/2016/12/07/windows-10-snapdragon-arm/
I believe HP has already released first devices running it.

 

[organicCPU]

Windows is already running on ARM

That makes it even more likely to get a Mac with ARM as its core processor released quite soon.

 

[lpolarityl]

To clarify, I’m talking about mainstream usage. Coding workstations are not mainstream usage.

A lot of other countries use Linux as their main operating system; internet cafes (non gaming), most of China (definitely their infrastructure servers), "mainstream" is still Windows. Look at any tech census, its still Windows who rules the mainstream crowd because Windows desktops and laptops are A LOT cheaper than even the cheapest MacBook or outdated Mac Mini. What I was getting at was, Linux is gaining ground. You stated it never took off, that simply isn't true. There wouldn't be a bunch of distro alternatives if that were the case. SuSE, Mint, Unbuntu, CentOS, Fedora, the list goes on. Linux is definitely used more now than it was a few years ago, by "mainstream" people.

They don’t need to to switch over completely in 2 years. All they need to do is release a couple of models. In fact, that’s what I’d expect them to do.

If that were the case, I would guess it would be a lower end product to get the Apple processor... or maybe its some new product that is a medium between a iPad and a MacBook. That'd be interesting.

 

[duervo]

A lot of other countries use Linux as their main operating system; internet cafes (non gaming), most of China (definitely their infrastructure servers), "mainstream" is still Windows.

As a side note, that reminds me. Even OS/2 is still actively used by companies. It surprised me 10 years ago. Today ... still surprises me.

https://www.ecomstation.com/

 

[KensaiMage]

As the topic says.

news: https://www.macrumors.com/2018/05/29/pegatron-to-make-arm-based-apple-macbook/

 

[Glmnet1]

I need a new Mac so I'll be buying one this year. IF Apple makes the switch to ARM and IF they drop support for Intel quickly, I'll just install Linux and Windows, cry a little and probably not buy a Mac ever again

I think that Apple will instead do a slow and smooth transition where they will slowly update Macs with ARM, starting with the non-pro devices and keep support Intel for quite a while.

I wouldn't be surprised if the T* chips added to the latest Macs are later used for this transition and to keep supporting those models for a longer time.

 

[KensaiMage]

I need a new Mac so I'll be buying one this year. IF Apple makes the switch to ARM and IF they drop support for Intel quickly, I'll just install Linux and Windows, cry a little and probably not buy a Mac ever again

I think that Apple will instead do a slow and smooth transition where we they will slowly update Macs with ARM, starting with the non-pro devices and keep support Intel for quite a while.

I wouldn't be surprised if the T* chips added to the latest Macs are later used for this transition and to keep supporting those models for a longer time.

What are your thoughts regarding recent quality issues? Wouldn't it be better to wait?

 

[Glmnet1]

What are your thoughts regarding recent quality issues? Wouldn't it be better to wait?

Personally had no issue at all. My MBP 2011 is still running and has been my only machine since it was released. macOS has been great for me and recently got my first iOS device. I really like Apple's software and hardware. I think issues are often quite overblown because people expect a lot form Apple, which is a good thing.

So considering all that, no I'm not afraid to continue investing in Apple's ecosystem because of some rumours about ARM Macs.

 

[Miltz]

Unless ARM MAC run things like photoshop and Final Cut, I don't see it happening. I don't want IOS on my MAC.

 

[Naimfan]

Fix keyboard, restore magsafe, shrink trackpad, lower price, etc., and I'll reconsider. Til then, my 2015 will have to do.

 

[DeanPSN]

Fix keyboard, restore magsafe, shrink trackpad, lower price, etc., and I'll reconsider. Til then, my 2015 will have to do.

That's your personal preference.
I love the huge trackpad, its a joy to use.
MagSafe was nice, but its not a dealbreaker for me and let's not forget MagSafe had its own fair share of issues with burning pins and stuff like that, so USB-C is good enough now + if you really want MagSafe, you could buy that micro thingy adapter for UBS-C MagSafe.

 

[hajime]

I need a new Mac so I'll be buying one this year. IF Apple makes the switch to ARM and IF they drop support for Intel quickly, I'll just install Linux and Windows, cry a little and probably not buy a Mac ever again

I think that Apple will instead do a slow and smooth transition where we they will slowly update Macs with ARM, starting with the non-pro devices and keep support Intel for quite a while.

I wouldn't be surprised if the T* chips added to the latest Macs are later used for this transition and to keep supporting those models for a longer time.

They will also offer old and outdated computers at regular prices.

 

[hajime]

Under TC's management, the trend seems to be that the MBP line is getting worse and worse. Although the MBP 2017 and perhaps also the 2018 version are down graded in the eyes of long-term Apple MBP users, the 2018 may be the last version before the laptop line gets even worse with ARM based CPU in 2020. So, this year may be the last chance.

 

[Hater]

I'm slowly trying to get myself using Fedora workstation, I hate it but Apple's direction is not compatible with what I need my laptop to do

 

[bopajuice]

I Truly feel the main reason Apple would drop Intel is so they don't have to keep up. When they release their "New" MacBooks with a 7th Gen processor, and the 8th Gen's are already in PC's makes them kind of look like they are behind the game. With the A11 phone chips they actually have a kick arse chip, but at the same time they are not subject to trends or timelines. Smart move. Lets see if ARM can keep up.

I have to admit I am surprised that the survey shows the majority will upgrade. I am amazed at the loyalty of Apple customers.

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They will also offer old and outdated computers at regular prices.

Like they do now.

 

[hajime]

I Truly feel the main reason Apple would drop Intel is so they don't have to keep up. When they release their "New" MacBooks with a 7th Gen processor, and the 8th Gen's are already in PC's makes them kind of look like they are behind the game. With the A11 phone chips they actually have a kick arse chip, but at the same time they are not subject to trends or timelines. Smart move. Lets see if ARM can keep up.

I have to admit I am surprised that the survey shows the majority will upgrade. I am amazed at the loyalty of Apple customers.

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Like they do now.

Exactly. Evil Apple.

I would prefer more options in the survey. I need to see what Apple comes up with this year to see if I am going to upgrade. If I don't like the keyboard in the 2018 model, I may need to switch to a Windows laptop.

 

[Naimfan]

That's your personal preference.
I love the huge trackpad, its a joy to use.
MagSafe was nice, but its not a dealbreaker for me and let's not forget MagSafe had its own fair share of issues with burning pins and stuff like that, so USB-C is good enough now + if you really want MagSafe, you could buy that micro thingy adapter for UBS-C MagSafe.

Well bully for you!

Wait until your keyboard fails . . .

 

[Closingracer]

As the topic says.

news: https://www.macrumors.com/2018/05/29/pegatron-to-make-arm-based-apple-macbook/

Cool? If you have some value in an ARM based MacBook you might as well buy a windows laptop because their pointless .

 

[Closingracer]

Fix keyboard, restore magsafe, shrink trackpad, lower price, etc., and I'll reconsider. Til then, my 2015 will have to do.

A) not happening
B) never happening ever in the lifetime of apple because USB C and thunder port 3 is superior in every way possible. And you can buy an adapter
C) why it’s the best ever period
d) you’ll be waiting until you die I guess

 

[gobikerider]

I was going to get this 2018 MacBook Pro but then I spent $200 to upgrade my PC to 10 Pro and order the Swiftpoint mouse. With Jump Desktop and a RDP connection I’m gonna commit to iPad only workflow with the Pc on standby for when i have to program or something.

 

[PeterJP]

I need a new Mac so I'll be buying one this year. IF Apple makes the switch to ARM and IF they drop support for Intel quickly, I'll just install Linux and Windows, cry a little and probably not buy a Mac ever again

I think that Apple will instead do a slow and smooth transition where we they will slowly update Macs with ARM, starting with the non-pro devices and keep support Intel for quite a while.

I don't think Apple would drop Intel immediately. That's clearly a no-go. There would be no application support. Microsoft tried that, hoping Office alone would be sufficient. Obviously, it wasn't. This isn't the 1980s, nobody would buy an Amstrad PCW with a fixed set of applications now.

If Apple is working on an ARM mac, they need to get developers on board. Now, if they had convinced the large software houses of porting their software to an ARM based mac, we would've heard about it. It's one thing to be able to keep secrecy in a hardware manufacturing supply chain. It's much harder to keep secrecy when you inform a large part of your ecosystem.

Having the ARM T1/2 processor as a co-processor for iOS apps, now that would be interesting. But Apple would have to rework a lot of the software running on it because it's currently closed down for mission critical applications (security, storage).