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ATV and piracy
- Thread starter DrEnalg
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So what? It's called debate. It would be nice if people would just say "Yes, piracy is stealing so I won't do it anymore" but that's unrealistic because there will always be a certain type of person who thinks it's ok.
The conversation ends for you when you decide to stop reading it. Make your own choice.
I don't know what's so hard to understand. Buy a blu-ray of a movie you like and want to watch multiple times, assuming you need a blu-ray and not the 720p version you can buy on iTunes. Make a digital copy, if you must, for your own exclusive use. Don't post it online, don't give it to your friends, don't sell the ripped dvd to someone else. Just enjoy it in your own household. It's really not that hard to do the right thing.
How's that different from downloading, watching it once, then deleting it?
The studio isn't quids in, and media has been viewed for free in both cases, but one case is morally wrong?
You and I both know that people don't spend hours downloading a movie to watch it once and then delete it. They store it to watch it multiple times, give it to all their friends, share it online, etc. And there aren't a hundred people watching the movie at your friend's house. Give me a break.
Both downloading the song (in most jurisdictions) and distributing the file are forms of copyright infringement. And of course taking a DVD from Best Buy is different from downloading a copy. Best Buy bought the DVD and they're out at least the wholesale price of the DVD. The studio doesn't care, they already got paid. Downloading the file is a breach of the studio's copyright and deprives the studio of whatever you would have paid to see the movie if you hadn't been able to download it. That's much harder to quantify. So the victims are different and the damage is different. The benefit to you may be the same, but the consequences are different. The law is concerned with consequences, and that's why it defines theft in a specific way that is very different from copyright infringement, and so it should.
I'm not saying piracy isn't bad, I'm just saying it's not theft. I'm not even saying it's better than theft, in some situations it might be worse. I'm just saying it's not theft. I'm not using that fact to justify anything, I just wanted to clear it up as a point of law and language.
Come on, AdrianK made a good point worth discussing: what's the moral difference between (1) downloading once, watching then deleting, and (2) watching at a friend's place? You can't just say that (1) never happens: imagine a scenario in which it did, and discuss. I am certain that it happens all the time.
There's a clear legal difference in that (1) is making an unauthorised reproduction in breach of copyright and (2) isn't. Is that enough to make a moral difference as well? Does it matter?
I agree with you that debate (even without an endpoint) is healthy, but let's try to engage with each other's actual arguments and not just write them off with assumptions.
The simple difference is: watching a movie at a friend's house (and that friend bought the movie legally and not charging you to watch it) is legal and won't get you charged with piracy. Downloading it off Pirate Bay is illegal (the source is violating copyright, you are getting a free copy from a stranger and are usually obligated to provide torrenting to others for the privilege, further violating copyright) and could get you sued. Does it really matter what you choose to call it?
Stealing is stealing.
Doesn't matter if you are stealing from a highly profitable multibillion dollar corporation; an overpriced convenience store; or a starving widow and orphan - its still stealing.
Rationalizing it by saying you are "too poor" etc. doesn't make it any better. Bragging about it on the internet is (IMHO) even worse.
If the moral and ethical reasons aren't good enough to dissuade you, then you really ought to think about the economic ones. Simply put, in the 21st century, the US, UK, and western Europe's main source of export earnings (ie. the cash we trade for all that tasty foreign oil and made-in-China merchandise) is intellectual property: movies, TV shows, software, books, patents, etc.
The more piracy, and other outright theft of intellectual property, is seen as "acceptable" - then the more people are going to do it. The more shady companies and organizations are going to erect servers and other digital infrastructure to make it easier to do, and harder to track down.
Don't pirate movies, TV shows, and the like. Dump cable (now costing from $30 to over $100 a month) - and get a Netflix subscription. Buy a set of "rabbit ears" and watch TV over the air. Or just renew your library card and read more books. But don't expect my sympathy - and especially not my admiration - for committing a crime just so you can watch Hot Tub Time Machine without paying for it.
Doesn't matter if you are stealing from a highly profitable multibillion dollar corporation; an overpriced convenience store; or a starving widow and orphan - its still stealing.
Rationalizing it by saying you are "too poor" etc. doesn't make it any better. Bragging about it on the internet is (IMHO) even worse.
If the moral and ethical reasons aren't good enough to dissuade you, then you really ought to think about the economic ones. Simply put, in the 21st century, the US, UK, and western Europe's main source of export earnings (ie. the cash we trade for all that tasty foreign oil and made-in-China merchandise) is intellectual property: movies, TV shows, software, books, patents, etc.
The more piracy, and other outright theft of intellectual property, is seen as "acceptable" - then the more people are going to do it. The more shady companies and organizations are going to erect servers and other digital infrastructure to make it easier to do, and harder to track down.
Don't pirate movies, TV shows, and the like. Dump cable (now costing from $30 to over $100 a month) - and get a Netflix subscription. Buy a set of "rabbit ears" and watch TV over the air. Or just renew your library card and read more books. But don't expect my sympathy - and especially not my admiration - for committing a crime just so you can watch Hot Tub Time Machine without paying for it.
I still believe it falls under both theft and copyright violation. I can see your argument in the Best Buy comparison. But circumventing the distributor doesn't really change things. Maybe I'm more apt to say it's similar to walking into the studio and grabbing the DVD. They're still not getting their fair return. I'll admit that it probably does fall more towards the copyright side of things where the law is concerned, but I don't think it's off base to call it theft for practical purposes.
As for the moral implications you also mentioned, things are a little hazy. I don't think studios ever really cared about people gathering together to watch a movie, or letting someone borrow a book, or a CD. The loss of any potential profits there was just a tiny fraction of overall sales. But nowadays anyone with an internet connection is a "friend." It's conceivable that one person could buy a copy of something and lend it to the world. Now those profits are severely diminished. Of course that example is extreme, but you can see where the interests of the studio lie now in the digital age. So I see a big difference between lending someone a movie or inviting someone over your house to watch it compared to downloading it from a stranger and deleting it after watching it.
Home connection speeds are only getting faster. Based on my connection speed, I could get a 1.36GB movie, virtually transparent to the original DVD, in under 10 minutes, making downloaded movies entirely disposable.
They could, I'd say that's a minority group due to fast speeds. Even so, those 100 people could each go to a friend's house.
A hundred people? P2P is not the only way to acquire media. Pirated movies can be obtained without uploading a single bit to other peers, and movies aren't necessarily shared after viewing.
I concur.
I wouldn't admire that either - Hot Tub Time Machine has been on Netflix for the past few weeks now.
I very strongly agree with this. My tax dollars (and my ancestors' tax dollars) have been paying for the enforcing of copyright on movies like Casablanca for over 70 years now.
The balance has tilted far too much against the "limited Times" envisioned by the founding fathers.
What I am hearing from people is A. Movie makers are greedy ****s, and B. Somehow trying to make pirating and fair use some how synonymous. Its not.
I don't think its right for people to take something, that isn't theres. Period.
My dad didn't teach me that it was right, and I won't teach my son that either.
Has anyone here been caught by the police for ripping a copy of their own DVD? Pirates like to hide behind the idea of 'Fair Use' but their not using the media for that purpose. If their issue is with Fair Use in the first place and their reaction is, well **** that I better rip off the producers of this movie. Well thats just ignorant thinking.
Now since people have took it upon themselves to pirate its only going to make things worse for the rest of us. Anyone heard of the Protect IP bill? It just passed the house, it allows the government to seize domains and block parts of the internet and web searches that may lead to sites that encourage and facilitate infringing activities. So now we have to be afraid of Big Brother watching everything we do on the net now. Thanks for help bringing in the censorship of the last bastion of freedom in the world. Goodbye Pirate Bay, goodbye torrent sites, goodbye to a long of sites because part of them are encourging infringing activities.
I don't think its right for people to take something, that isn't theres. Period.
My dad didn't teach me that it was right, and I won't teach my son that either.
Has anyone here been caught by the police for ripping a copy of their own DVD? Pirates like to hide behind the idea of 'Fair Use' but their not using the media for that purpose. If their issue is with Fair Use in the first place and their reaction is, well **** that I better rip off the producers of this movie. Well thats just ignorant thinking.
Now since people have took it upon themselves to pirate its only going to make things worse for the rest of us. Anyone heard of the Protect IP bill? It just passed the house, it allows the government to seize domains and block parts of the internet and web searches that may lead to sites that encourage and facilitate infringing activities. So now we have to be afraid of Big Brother watching everything we do on the net now. Thanks for help bringing in the censorship of the last bastion of freedom in the world. Goodbye Pirate Bay, goodbye torrent sites, goodbye to a long of sites because part of them are encourging infringing activities.
You've got to be kidding. You're blaming internet pirates for the criminal overreach of government? Sorry, I'm quite swayed (much more so than I was when I was younger) by arguments against internet piracy, but saying "if it wasn't for internet pirates, then congress wouldn't be pissing all over the Constitution." That's asinine. That's the political equivalent of blaming rape victims for rape. Sorry, I'm not buying.
Bingo! Why hasn't someone commented on this. Corporations have Congress in their pockets. The problems is not ethics and morals. If that was really the concern, you should be concerned about the morals and ethics big companies and your government regulate. Inflation of cost with government backing is what creates piracy and as one stated an Oligopoly will lead to ridiculous prices. If the price was fair based on what was real, then I am sure and almost positive there would be a hell of a lot less piracy going on and this debate would not exist. The economy is constantly evolving though.
The problem goes way deeper than just morals or ethics. This debate can go on forever. The bottom line is I don't look for Government to tell me what is right or wrong in making life choices. Sure I abide by the rules, but I prefer to be a free thinker and I navigate through life as such. If any of you are into politics you will know darn well that laws and regs passed don't always have ethics or the best interest of us involved. So with all that being said, I prefer to not be a robot and use a little different approach. I have pirated different things, but I also pay for the majority of things in life. Justification? Maybe, just all depends.
The problem is we are not robots and we have the ability to think and rationalize. So to the commenter that states we rationalize into doing something wrong.... well, not really. People are just not robots who do things as they are told... because there is always more to it all than just.. do this or do that. Not black and white at all.
You better not complain when people cheat on their taxes or commit welfare or insurance fraud. They can use the exact same rationale as you. Society goes down a notch every time someone has a "I'll do whatever's good for me, f you" attitude.
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So if I never buy your book, I'm stealing money from you? Wow, I've stolen millions of dollars from authors.
Look it boils down to this:
All US laws and penalties for copyright infringement are excessive. Show me one that is not.
If you got the cash and like the author of the movie, software book, music, then please donate. If not, then go ahead and copy but please tell others about the item.
Before "pirating" please consider FOSS like Gimp/Linux
The only time that police should be involved is when people are selling copyrighted software. Other than that LEAVE PEOPLE THE HELL ALONE!
Christ!
diminiko said:
So if I never buy your book, I'm stealing money from you? Wow, I've stolen millions of dollars from authors.
Look it boils down to this:
All US laws and penalties for copyright infringement are excessive. Show me one that is not.
If you got the cash and like the author of the movie, software book, music, then please donate. If not, then go ahead and copy but please tell others about the item.
Before "pirating" please consider FOSS like Gimp/Linux
The only time that police should be involved is when people are selling copyrighted software. Other than that LEAVE PEOPLE THE HELL ALONE!
Christ!
There's a difference between (1) "I'll do whatever's good for me" and (2) "I believe these laws are unfair, corrupt and wrong for society and I'm not going to obey them just because they happen to be laws". I agree that (1) usually brings society down a notch, but sometimes (2) can bring it up a notch or two.
I'm sure you think that everyone who disagrees with you is just thinking (1), but you have to allow for the possibility that some people have thought about these issues at least as deeply as you have, and have come to conclusions that are better characterised as (2). Even if they ARE just justifications for self-interested behaviour, they might also be valid arguments.
I don't care if you don't buy my book. However, if you COPY it rather than PAY for a copy you are stealing from me. It is my product and I am remunerated for my many months of hard work from the sale. Just because my work has no tangible value to you, it does not give you the right to take it for your own pleasure without paying me for it. If you COPY it you might as well be stealing it from my house.
You make out like it's your right to decide whether or not to pay me for my property, physical or intellectual. Perhaps I might pirate your car. Don't worry, if I like it I will tell lots of people about it.
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You are absolutely welcome to clone anything i own.
Please bring your cloning device to my house. Heck clone my wife if you want (dare)
diminiko said:
You are absolutely welcome to clone anything i own.
Please bring your cloning device to my house. Heck clone my wife if you want (dare)
Taken from the back of my Exorcist DVD:
".....The copyright proprietor has licensed this DVD....for private home use only. Any unauthorised copying, editing, exhibition, renting, lending, public performance, diffusion and/or broadcast of this DVD, ...., is strictly prohibited."
I wonder at what point watching a film at a friends house clashes with the above, as it would seem that me lending my DVD to a friend is definitely out.
".....The copyright proprietor has licensed this DVD....for private home use only. Any unauthorised copying, editing, exhibition, renting, lending, public performance, diffusion and/or broadcast of this DVD, ...., is strictly prohibited."
I wonder at what point watching a film at a friends house clashes with the above, as it would seem that me lending my DVD to a friend is definitely out.