Can't innovate any more, my ass?

[itdk92]

Z has been for a respectful amount of time around...

nowadays it's better than ever...
[doublepost=1481563189][/doublepost]

Oh, just look at the tbMBP and their longterm vision and their strategies are obvious.
Solder and glue and seal.

If we ever see a nnMP it will be following this route, and it will be worst than the the 6,1 in terms of upgradeability.

To our great dissapointment...

I understand your frustration, and share it too. This is a very quick and superficial analysis though.

Imho, the rMBP 2016 is just a push to accessories manufacturers to make them produce and adopt the usb-c/tb3 standard, nothing more - but this still doesn't say much about their overall strategy.

Hell, it might even be that they push a rMBP with usb-c/tb3 to push accessory makers, so that there are actual PRO accessories when a nnMP comes out.

 

[Ph.D.]

Hell, it might even be that they push a rMBP with usb-c/tb3 to push accessory makers, so that there are actual PRO accessories when a nnMP comes out.

Hehe, that's kind of ingenious. The MBP is a stalking horse for what Apple really wants to do - make a nnMP! They care after all!

But most think the opposite. Apple is forward-looking and is predicting a world in which USB-C is the one physical interface form-factor to rule them all for the foreseeable future. In typical Apple style, they are forcing the matter.

I'd go further and say that they really think that wireless is the ultimate future. After all, who wants wires connected to their room-scale VR headsets? I'd half expect an iPhone with NO plugs at all in the semi-near future (e.g. a hermetically-sealed fused-glass phone). Wireless charging and wireless everything else. But computers still need to move more data faster than current wireless standards permit, e.g. to hook up 5k+ displays, hence the need for some kind of plug for now. Thus, USB-c / TB-3 has been anointed king.

 

[slughead]

Hell, it might even be that they push a rMBP with usb-c/tb3 to push accessory makers, so that there are actual PRO accessories when a nnMP comes out.

It didn't work with the nMP. external TB enclosures are still way overpriced and PCIe replacements are as well such as 10GbE. Even the breakout boxes are about the same price they were 3 years ago (not that they work well in OS X anyway, especially for GPU).

Some of us predicted this would be a problem.

Granted the rMBP 2016 has probably already sold more in a few weeks than the nMP did in 1000+ days (I don't know that for sure, but I bet it has). Maybe this will shift the market? Nah, probably it'll just create a bigger market for USBC -> USB 3.1 and USBC -> Displayport adapters.

 

[itdk92]

It didn't work with the nMP. external TB enclosures are still way overpriced and PCIe replacements are as well such as 10GbE. Even the breakout boxes are about the same price they were 3 years ago (not that they work well in OS X anyway, especially for GPU).

Some of us predicted this would be a problem.

I am talking about availability, not prices.

The nMP did indeed create a bigger market for TB devices.

 

[filmak]

I understand your frustration, and share it too. This is a very quick and superficial analysis though.

Imho, the rMBP 2016 is just a push to accessories manufacturers to make them produce and adopt the usb-c/tb3 standard, nothing more - but this still doesn't say much about their overall strategy.

Hell, it might even be that they push a rMBP with usb-c/tb3 to push accessory makers, so that there are actual PRO accessories when a nnMP comes out.

Yes, the 2016 rMBP may be a push for usb-c... as the nMp was for TB2...

But the real problem is at their methods, their long term vision, as you have wrote.
We were complaining for the removal of expandability of the nMP, especially with the internal options, as we could only play with the amount of RAM and the SSD (upgrade to one with greater capacity, of course only if we could find one).

Now look at the 2016 MBP issues (and think about the nMP successor):
soldered ram
soldered SSD
extra glued battery
magsafe removal

The new ports are nice for Apple, because they 're very flexible for many uses.
The design is nice.
The screen is nice.

The whole system unfortunately is not nice, as it's an intentionally made disposable computer...
Imho...

 

[itdk92]

Yes, the 2016 rMBP may be a push for usb-c... as the nMp was for TB2...

But the real problem is at their methods, their long term vision, as you have wrote.
We were complaining for the removal of expandability of the nMP, especially with the internal options, as we could only play with the amount of RAM and the SSD (upgrade to one with greater capacity, of course only if we could find one).

Now look at the 2016 MBP issues (and think about the nMP successor):
soldered ram
soldered SSD
extra glued battery
magsafe removal

The new ports are nice for Apple, because they 're very flexible for many uses.
The design is nice.
The screen is nice.

The whole system unfortunately is not nice, as it's an intentionally made disposable computer...
Imho...

I see what you mean.

Imho:

- soldered ram is not a problem, but became a problem when they didn't offer 32GB
- soldered SSD is could be a problem
- glued battery is not a problem, since it can be replaced at Apple Stores for "reasonable"
- magsafe removal is definitely a problem - super dumb move

Then again, no way I am going to buy the 2016 model. Maybe a 2017/2018 model. Maybe.

 

[Ph.D.]

In the case of the 2016 MBP, I think Apple correctly drew the conclusion to the following question: Which is better, to provide a smaller, faster, cheaper (or higher profit), better over-all user experience for the vast majority of buyers, or cater to the 1% that, a few years from now, may want to add more memory, swap flash, etc.

Yes, we here, many used to tinkering with our cMPs, may whine, but for the 99%, they won't likely notice the need for an upgrade over the lifespan of the device, never mind know how to do it or even know that it could be done!

The other issue people should realize is that is it's becoming physically impossible to provide replaceable or upgrade-able parts. The entire industry is heading towards soldered-down everything in order to provide the electrical integrity, speed and efficiency that is desired. For example, when High Bandwidth Memory enters the mainstream, it will be absolutely impossible to provide upgrades. It's just part of the bargain: From here on out, higher performance and efficiency means locked down devices just due to physics.

 

[filmak]

soldered SSD is could be a problem

This soldered SSD may be more than a problem in the case there are any confidential or very important data in it.

And this because in the unfortunate case that your logic board or GPU is broken, you have no way to keep/remove your data/ erase the ssd / or even replace it, before you sent it to Apple.
I think that this is a serious problem.
[doublepost=1481571987][/doublepost]

In the case of the 2016 MBP, I think Apple correctly drew the conclusion to the following question: Which is better, to provide a smaller, faster, cheaper (or higher profit), better over-all user experience for the vast majority of buyers, or cater to the 1% that, a few years from now, may want to add more memory, swap flash, etc.

Yes, we here, many used to tinkering with our cMPs, may whine, but for the 99%, they won't likely notice the need for an upgrade over the lifespan of the device, never mind know how to do it or even know that it could be done!

The other issue people should realize is that is it's becoming physically impossible to provide replaceable or upgrade-able parts. The entire industry is heading towards soldered-down everything in order to provide the electrical integrity, speed and efficiency that is desired. For example, when High Bandwidth Memory enters the mainstream, it will be absolutely impossible to provide upgrades. It's just part of the bargain: From here on out, higher performance and efficiency means locked down devices just due to physics.

I understand very well your thesis, thank you for sharing.

But is this percentage so small? I only have about 10 portable Macs around and they all have been upgraded and gain extra life as time passed by...

 

[Ph.D.]

I understand very well your thesis, thank you for sharing.

But is this percentage so small? I only have about 10 portable Macs around and they all have been upgraded and gain extra life as time passed by...

Yes, you are exceptional - you are the 1%.

The question isn't so much about the past, it's about the future. I just replaced an 11" air with a 13" MBP. Would my air have gained more life if I could have updated the ram or SSD or processor or graphics or battery or screen? No, actually. Maybe I'm privileged enough to think this way, but it wasn't any one thing that was the problem. It was the holistic package that was the desired change. And that's how 99% of Apple's customers think.

 

[phrehdd]

In the case of the 2016 MBP, I think Apple correctly drew the conclusion to the following question: Which is better, to provide a smaller, faster, cheaper (or higher profit), better over-all user experience for the vast majority of buyers, or cater to the 1% that, a few years from now, may want to add more memory, swap flash, etc.

Yes, we here, many used to tinkering with our cMPs, may whine, but for the 99%, they won't likely notice the need for an upgrade over the lifespan of the device, never mind know how to do it or even know that it could be done!

The other issue people should realize is that is it's becoming physically impossible to provide replaceable or upgrade-able parts. The entire industry is heading towards soldered-down everything in order to provide the electrical integrity, speed and efficiency that is desired. For example, when High Bandwidth Memory enters the mainstream, it will be absolutely impossible to provide upgrades. It's just part of the bargain: From here on out, higher performance and efficiency means locked down devices just due to physics.

Well "PH.D.," As someone who has been around quite a bit with computers and technology I found your post rather interesting. There is a time and a place for the "need" to have a sealed in, soldered in and non-upgradable/repairable device and then there are some devices that certainly lend themselves to a design and architecture that allows for upgrades in spite of your mention of electrical integrity, speed and efficiency. The reality is that much of the hardware is and has been ahead of the software and firmware. As for the cMP, which was supposedly oriented towards pros and higher end users, part of its sell was that it is the most open design for upgrades and customizing. Businesses would expect htem to last 3-5 years for business reasons and certainly would consider adding RAM, drives, SCSI (back then), fiber optic, and of course changes in video etc. - Similar could be said with the high end non pro user. When we talk about stability and speed etc, there are so many facets to this topic it can be dizzying and rather lackluster and a bit of a dolt offering to bundle them all up under the notion that all parts must be locked down and non-interchangeable etc. Btw, in what area did you earn your Ph.D.? Sadly for me, I can't fit all my letters and symbols as related to technical certifications in my name space here (g).

 

[antonis]

If we ever see a nnMP it will be following this route, and it will be worst than the the 6,1 in terms of upgradeability.

To our great dissapointment...

Making a desktop worse than 6,1 in terms of upgradeability; now, that would be quite an accomplishment. However, it would be heavier. You know, all this glue inside...

 

[filmak]

Yes, you are exceptional - you are the 1%.

The question isn't so much about the past, it's about the future. I just replaced an 11" air with a 13" MBP. Would my air have gained more life if I could have updated the ram or SSD or processor or graphics or battery or screen? No, actually. Maybe I'm privileged enough to think this way, but it wasn't any one thing that was the problem. It was the holistic package that was the desired change. And that's how 99% of Apple's customers think.

Respect the minority then... Apple is serious about human rights...

Anyway the problem is that Apple transformed/converged the MacBook Pro line to a better Air.
And now there is a gap, the "Pro" line is missing.

The same goes for the nMP... it is the Pro transformed/converged to Cube... oh sorry... to tube...

 

[Ph.D.]

Well "PH.D.," As someone who has been around quite a bit with computers and technology I found your post rather interesting.

Thank you. By the way, it's "Ph.D.", not "PH.D.", which I would presume someone who has earned one would know.

Choose your time if you like. For now, you can still buy laptops with many high-performance replaceable and upgrade-able components. They may weigh 8 lbs and have 3 hours of battery life even if you aren't playing Doom, though. But come back in a few years and tell us how many new laptops are upgrade-able at all. This isn't an Apple trend, it's an industry trend. The laggards just haven't realized it yet.

 

[filmak]

I just replaced an 11" air with a 13" MBP. Would my air have gained more life if I could have updated the ram or SSD or processor or graphics or battery or screen? No, actually.

The CPUs aren't so exceptionally powerfull nowadays, than they were during the last 5 years... their performance in many cases is quite similar. Now the RAM, SSD and GPU are getting better continuously.
Also a M.2 connector is not an obstacle to the way to the future.
By using it, as the rest of the industry does, is a good insurance for today and for the not so far away future.

 

[Ph.D.]

The same goes for the nMP... it is the Pro transformed/converged to Cube... oh sorry... to tube...

I agree. For an updated tube (which I think is silly - a cube would actually be more sensible), I'd prefer more standard components, e.g. standard M.2 drives and user-swappable graphics. If Apple must be industry leaders, at least let them lead with something that others can follow. In this niche (and it is becoming a niche), people do still care about upgrading.

 

[phrehdd]

I agree. For an updated tube (which I think is silly - a cube would actually be more sensible), I'd prefer more standard components, e.g. standard M.2 drives and user-swappable graphics. If Apple must be industry leaders, at least let them lead with something that others can follow. In this niche (and it is becoming a niche), people do still care about upgrading.

Well alas, I had a typo and you caught me. Mea culpa. If you continued reading further the "h" was lower case as it should be.

You still failed to answer the question about your Ph.D. Here is your opportunity to share.

 

[Ph.D.]

You still failed to answer the question about your Ph.D. Here is your opportunity to share.

I'm not interested in your insecurities. But live long and prosper, whatever your own credentials may be.

 

[phrehdd]

I'm not interested in your insecurities. But live long and prosper, whatever your own credentials may be.

You seem to scream for attention with your 'appeal to authority' style of self naming of "Ph.D." I find it quite entertaining. Rather amusing that you throw your degree out there as a name but ashamed to share what your concentration was about.

 

[Ph.D.]

You seem to scream for attention with your 'appeal to authority' style of self naming of "Ph.D." I find it quite entertaining. Rather amusing that you throw your degree out there as a name but ashamed to share what your concentration was about.

Wow, you don't give up, do you. You aren't entertaining, and you are the one who seems desperate for attention. Now how about getting back on topic (such as it is), or else go count your "certifications" one more time - in private. Thanks and goodbye.

 

[AidenShaw]

Z has been for a respectful amount of time around...

nowadays it's better than ever...
[doublepost=1481563189][/doublepost]

Oh, just look at the tbMBP and their longterm vision and their strategies are obvious.
Solder and glue and seal.

If we ever see a nnMP it will be following this route, and it will be worst than the the 6,1 in terms of upgradeability.

To our great dissapointment...

But, although it's sealed, it will have lots of ports that won't connect to anything that you already have.

 

[deconstruct60]

The 480 is basically a budget card. It is better than the D700, but it gets beaten by the 1070 and 1080.

$240-280 seems a bit past "budget" and well into mid-range (at least in the mainstream cards ).
The 1070 is in the $390-450 range.

The 480 also doesn't meet the thermal requirements for the Mac Pro, which means more down clocking. As I've said elsewhere, if Apple released a Mac Pro with Polaris on the high end, nobody would buy it anyway and there would be another around of complaining.

It still seems to me that AMD promised Apple that Vega would ship closer to Polaris, it isn't, and everything is slipping. That's the perils of Apple going with a single GPU vendor.

480 doesn't hit, but neither does Vega (at least Vega 10) by all indications so far.

Apple pushing both Polaris 11 and Vega 11 wouldn't be too surprising. But vega 11 is just going to be approximately 480 with better thermals. ( dumping HBM for GDDR5 being a decent sized chunk of the swap. )

Not sure why Apple would be any credibility with Polaris and Vega shipping relatively close together given AMD's resources. Getting Polaris 10 and 11 out the door meant that there were going to be problems getting Vega out close to that if there were significant changes/updates between the two. HBM2 yields seem to be a major hiccup also which was another very significant risk factor on betting the farm on some Vega derivative.

Something in the 1080 performance range probably won't be in Mac Pro design constraint wheelhouse for at least another generation. Vega isn't a solution for that any time soon either.

 

[ssgbryan]

I see what you mean, and I do understand the frustration.

Yet, I still strongly believe we know nothing about what Apple's technology long-term vision, components strategy or marketing strategy.

And neither does Apple, I suspect.

 

[phrehdd]

Wow, you don't give up, do you. You aren't entertaining, and you are the one who seems desperate for attention. Now how about getting back on topic (such as it is), or else go count your "certifications" one more time - in private. Thanks and goodbye.

Nothing like the inability to answer a simple question. One throws a name out here and someone asks about it and then demonstrates snowflake behavior.

 

[itdk92]

This soldered SSD may be more than a problem in the case there are any confidential or very important data in it.

And this because in the unfortunate case that your logic board or GPU is broken, you have no way to keep/remove your data/ erase the ssd / or even replace it, before you sent it to Apple.

It is actually possible for Apple to connect to a special port to the SSD to try to recover your data. About confidential data.. Apple is not allowed to look into your stuff, so in theory you are covered., but yeah I get your point..
[doublepost=1481587774][/doublepost]

Making a desktop worse than 6,1 in terms of upgradeability; now, that would be quite an accomplishment. However, it would be heavier. You know, all this glue inside...

You can upgrade the CPUs, the RAM and the SSD.

There is no Pci express slots, so no GPUs or other upgrades, which sucks, but doesn't make it the "least upgradable" by any means.
[doublepost=1481587923][/doublepost]

Respect the minority then... Apple is serious about human rights...

Anyway the problem is that Apple transformed/converged the MacBook Pro line to a better Air.
And now there is a gap, the "Pro" line is missing.

The same goes for the nMP... it is the Pro transformed/converged to Cube... oh sorry... to tube...

Have you tried the rMBP 2016? it is a fantastic computer, which desperately needs a better GPU. That's the only performance area to be disappointed about. Some more eGPUs solutions, and we might solve this problem ourselves..
[doublepost=1481588274][/doublepost]

And neither does Apple, I suspect.

I am not a fan of the current line-up (currently running three MP 4.1->5.1), but I do have some faith, which is partially fuelled by how powerful their mobile CPUs and GPUs are - hence the opportunity for them to make a "comeback" into the PRO market at some point in the near future

 

[slughead]

I am talking about availability, not prices.

The nMP did indeed create a bigger market for TB devices.

Not big enough apparently, there are a ton more TB device manufacturers and definitely a few new products (the hubs, for instance), I remember googling the prices of these TB items in 2013 and hysterically trolling my results here to the fanboys who assured me that once we had more competition, prices will fall. Never happened.

Although now that I think about it, 2013 was a long time ago, if you adjust for inflation........
[doublepost=1481598165][/doublepost]

In the case of the 2016 MBP, I think Apple correctly drew the conclusion to the following question: Which is better, to provide a smaller, faster, cheaper (or higher profit), better over-all user experience for the vast majority of buyers, or cater to the 1% that, a few years from now, may want to add more memory, swap flash, etc.

I actually agree that the soldered thing isn't a big deal, though I sometimes wish I could put 16GB in my soldered 2013 rMBP 13" (my work bought it for me for free, don't judge me!). On a side note, my fiance and my friend both have macbook pros from 2008 we upgraded with a nice SSD and maxed out the RAM. I got a 2008 iMac I maxed out too and is doing simple photoshop stuff and word-processing just great. They'll squeeze a few more years out of those babies. It is however not usually the case.

That said, I don't think the user experience on the 2016 macbook is a better one. I think the push for USB C when not even the freaking iphone comes with an adapter is a bit of a problem. Also, magsafe rules, plain and simple. I keep a 128gb USB3 drive plugged into my rMBP at all times, or what about a cordless mouse/keyboard dongle? Nope, need an adapter now.

I'd say 90% of the buyers of the 2016 macbook pro would be better off with 2015 model because of 3 things: USB A, mag safe, and the fact that the speed bump was from Meh to Beh (ergo nobody was buying these things for tons of performance anyway). The thickness was and is a non-issue at that level.

The other issue people should realize is that is it's becoming physically impossible to provide replaceable or upgrade-able parts. The entire industry is heading towards soldered-down everything in order to provide the electrical integrity, speed and efficiency that is desired. For example, when High Bandwidth Memory enters the mainstream, it will be absolutely impossible to provide upgrades. It's just part of the bargain: From here on out, higher performance and efficiency means locked down devices just due to physics.

That might be true in the future, but the 2016 MBP uses DDR3..... we're definitely not there yet. I think it's obvious they soldered it for more profit (in terms of building them) and maybe for some of the thinness.
[doublepost=1481598993][/doublepost]

Thank you. By the way, it's "Ph.D.", not "PH.D.", which I would presume someone who has earned one would know.

Choose your time if you like. For now, you can still buy laptops with many high-performance replaceable and upgrade-able components. They may weigh 8 lbs and have 3 hours of battery life even if you aren't playing Doom, though. But come back in a few years and tell us how many new laptops are upgrade-able at all. This isn't an Apple trend, it's an industry trend. The laggards just haven't realized it yet.

That's unfair, my Alienware 15 R2 has about a 7 hour battery life doing non-gaming tasks. It also has a 980m, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD via SATA3, 4k display, i7-6700HQ, and soon a 512gb m.2. I just adjust the power settings on everything to preserve battery life (not sure this does anything) and it already automatically uses the iGPU on non-3D apps.

It does weigh 7 pounds though and I usually carry a 50,000 mAh battery pack because I play Civ 5 on the plane.