Can't innovate any more, my ass?

[Ph.D.]

It does weigh 7 pounds though and I usually carry a 50,000 mAh battery pack because I play Civ 5 on the plane.

I was perhaps exaggerating a little on the battery duration. But 50 Ah!? I hope you are exaggerating about the battery pack, because one that size is going to violate restrictions for airline travel by a huge margin!

As a public service: You are limited to up to 100 Wh (Watt-hours) of spare lithium-ion (rechargeable) batteries (one pack, up to 2 with prior airline approval), carry-on only. Multiply the Ah (1 Ah is 1,000 mAh) by the voltage to get Wh.

Even if the voltage is only 5V (unlikely), that would put you over the limit by a factor of 2.5. They will take it from you or bar you from travel. And they are getting VERY fussy about this after the Samsung debacle. Plus, you don't want to die along with 2-300 other people because of a battery fire. The reason it's carry-on only is so they can try to put out the fire. You are even required to take it out of your bag and keep it with you personally while flying.

 

[slughead]

Even if the voltage is only 5V (unlikely), that would put you over the limit by a factor of 2.5. They will take it from you or bar you from travel. And they are getting VERY fussy about this after the Samsung debacle. Plus, you don't want to die along with 2-300 other people because of a battery fire. The reason it's carry-on only is so they can try to put out the fire. You are even required to take it out of your bag and keep it with you personally while flying.

Nope, not joking, and I've been flying with it for probably 12 flights in the last year... but not since the note bomb came about. As far as dying in a battery fire, please? Like the millions of liIon batteries that fly every year are lower risk than my battery pack? The Note had a defect.

However I guess I'll have to stop flying with this, I bet you're right about the recent increased fussiness. Damn you samsung!

 

[Ph.D.]

Nope, not joking, and I've been flying with it for probably 12 flights in the last year... but not since the note bomb came about. As far as dying in a battery fire, please? Like the millions of liIon batteries that fly every year are lower risk than my battery pack? The Note had a defect.

However I guess I'll have to stop flying with this, I bet you're right about the recent increased fussiness. Damn you samsung!

No joke. Planes have caught fire, crashed and people have died in them because of lithium ion batteries.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/24/ups-crash-dubai-lithium/2582213/\

Even if you aren't worried about dying, you would be arrested if you made it to the ground in one piece.

 

[slughead]

No joke. Planes have caught fire, crashed and people have died in them because of lithium ion batteries.

Yes, and I'm probably a dozen times more likely to die in a car crash on the way to the airport than my adorable little 5 pound battery is to kill me on the plane. Anyway point taken, I believe you that the TSA will probably nix it if they figure out what it is, I'll probably stop.
[doublepost=1481601990][/doublepost]

Making a desktop worse than 6,1 in terms of upgradeability; now, that would be quite an accomplishment. However, it would be heavier. You know, all this glue inside...

As long as it's thinner and gets better battery life, it must be better.

 

[Ph.D.]

Yes, and I'm probably a dozen times more likely to die in a car crash on the way to the airport than my adorable little 5 pound battery is to kill me on the plane. Anyway point taken, I believe you that the TSA will probably nix it if they figure out what it is, I'll probably stop.

The attitude that it's the TSA's "fussyness" problem and not my battery pack's* problem is what's going to ruin it for everyone when a passenger plane goes down and kills 300 people. Let's be clear: fly with that again and you are breaking Federal law.

*One which is likely made in China, likely from the cheapest possible cells - way flakier than Samsung's - and possibly with fake certifications printed on it like half the chargers out there.

 

[slughead]

The attitude that it's the TSA's "fussyness" problem and not my battery pack's* problem is what's going to ruin it for everyone when a passenger plane goes down and kills 300 people. Let's be clear: fly with that again and you are breaking Federal law.

*One which is likely made in China, likely from the cheapest possible cells - way flakier than Samsung's - and possibly with fake certifications printed on it like half the chargers out there.

Let's be clear: GOT IT, I don't want to get assaulted from TSA agents, I said 3 times I was going to stop using it based on the recent crackdown you pointed out (thanks, by the way). I'm starting to think that guy making fun of your name may have had a point.

Let's also be clear: If you are afraid of my battery pack hurting anyone you should stay home under the covers and never leave your house because the probability of you dying from something else is so spectacularly more. The world must be terrifying for you! Besides, I think you're the one who said fussiness.

 

[Ph.D.]

Let's be clear: GOT IT, I don't want to get assaulted from TSA agents, I said 3 times I was going to stop using it

Actually, you said "probably." But yeah, you got it. I'm done too. Peace.

 

[itdk92]

Let's be clear: GOT IT, I don't want to get assaulted from TSA agents, I said 3 times I was going to stop using it based on the recent crackdown you pointed out (thanks, by the way). I'm starting to think that guy making fun of your name may have had a point.

Let's also be clear: If you are afraid of my battery pack hurting anyone you should stay home under the covers and never leave your house because the probability of you dying from something else is so spectacularly more. The world must be terrifying for you! Besides, I think you're the one who said fussiness.

I do am afraid of people who just not consider the danger, and ignores it.

Not saying anything about you, just generalizing.

At the beginning of the whole exploding Note soap opera, I had a good amount of "wtfff" moment flying in Denmark where NO ONE from ryanair or easyjet would tell the freaking passengers to shut down their Note.

I have experience with btteries exploding, so yeah it's just a pain in the ass.

 

[antonis]

You can upgrade the CPUs, the RAM and the SSD.

There is no Pci express slots, so no GPUs or other upgrades, which sucks, but doesn't make it the "least upgradable" by any means.

Well, my comment was half a joke but still, it is half true as well. There's no official upgrade path from Apple for any of these (I could not count BTO options as upgrades) and even CPU and SSD it can only be done with user's full responsibility and requires access to parts from 3rd party market.

Add to the above that the SSD upgrade is kind of a deviation for a machine that enforces the "everything external" mentality (or to put it simply, nobody bought a 2013 MP for its internal storage upgradeability). And to add insult to the wound, Apple didn't even cared to offer upgraded versions to all of these in a period of 3 years.

So, regarding desktops and workstations, imho it would be indeed quite an accomplishment to make it less upgradeable (well, there's always the iMac to compare but, to be honest, that's not really a desktop computer ).

 

[itdk92]

Well, my comment was half a joke but still, it is half true as well. There's no official upgrade path from Apple for any of these (I could not count BTO options as upgrades) and even CPU and SSD it can only be done with user's full responsibility and requires access to parts from 3rd party market.

Add to the above that the SSD upgrade is kind of a deviation for a machine that enforces the "everything external" mentality (or to put it simply, nobody bought a 2013 MP for its internal storage upgradeability). And to add insult to the wound, Apple didn't even cared to offer upgraded versions to all of these in a period of 3 years.

So, regarding desktops and workstations, imho it would be indeed quite an accomplishment to make it less upgradeable (well, there's always the iMac to compare but, to be honest, that's not really a desktop computer ).

While I see your point, I don't recall how the majority of cMP users' HDDs, SSDs, GPUs, pcie cards are Apple certified. We use in fact 3rd party market components. Same you can do in the 2013 nMP, with the notable exclusion of the GPU, which is almost the only real problem for professionals.

 

[filmak]

I'm very afraid that there is a good possibility for a MP built around an all in one logic board, so your only option will be to buy RAM and SSD only from them for extra profits, like the new tbMBPs.
BTO and nothing else.

These are the new MacPad Pros...

 

[deconstruct60]

I'm very afraid that there is a good possibility for a MP built around an all in one logic board, so your only option will be to buy RAM and SSD only from them for extra profits, like the new tbMBPs.

The iMac 27" model has user replaceable RAM. So the point is?

Even the 21" models that were not MBA baseline tracking have DIMMs up until the latest Retina versions. RAM access on the iMac is more so the container than lack of so-DIMM/DIMM slots. There no LCD panel to fix into place on a Mac Pro so not particularly rational expectation that will have the exact same design constraints. If there is no "door" or case opening to the RAM then DIMMs have withered. But where is the move by Apple to lock the Mac Pro case? There isn't even a locking mechanism anymore.

The 27" iMac has a large enough pedestal arm and enough space under the arm to effective hide a door for so-DIMMs access. As long as Apple has that vanity hiding place ( so project appearance of magic device with no 'ugly' seams/doors ) they will probably keep it. The Mac Pro's relatively seamless lift-off cover is just as vanity protecting and also likely to be kept.


Apple proprietary SSD slot will slow down and highly limit options but if there is enough demand a solution will eventually arrive.

 

[filmak]

The iMac 27" model has user replaceable RAM. So the point is?

Even the 21" models that were not MBA baseline tracking have DIMMs up until the latest Retina versions. RAM access on the iMac is more so the container than lack of so-DIMM/DIMM slots. There no LCD panel to fix into place on a Mac Pro so not particularly rational expectation that will have the exact same design constraints. If there is no "door" or case opening to the RAM then DIMMs have withered. But where is the move by Apple to lock the Mac Pro case? There isn't even a locking mechanism anymore.

The 27" iMac has a large enough pedestal arm and enough space under the arm to effective hide a door for so-DIMMs access. As long as Apple has that vanity hiding place ( so project appearance of magic device with no 'ugly' seams/doors ) they will probably keep it. The Mac Pro's relatively seamless lift-off cover is just as vanity protecting and also likely to be kept.


Apple proprietary SSD slot will slow down and highly limit options but if there is enough demand a solution will eventually arrive.

Yes, but all these were valid till now. Before the statement for the supercomputer iPadPro...
So, I 'm afraid that like the MBP was once upon a time upgradeable, but now became the new Air, like the mini had some options before 2014, or like the 21" iMac, the same will happen eventually to all their offerings...
I don't want this to happen at all, but it seems that Apple's care for form over function is going to a new higher level...

 

[ActionableMango]

I doubt a single person is meeting all of the regulations for battery banks. The mfr must test the battery according to the UN Manual of Tests and Criteria, Part III, Sub-section 38.3. I seriously doubt all these cheap Chinese made no-name battery banks are properly tested for flying according to UN criteria. Even big US brand names like Yeti that have done the test won't release their test data, which speaks volumes about the results.

Furthermore, the passenger must keep the battery in retail packaging and tape over the contacts to prevent loose metal objects from shorting the battery. Who does this? Anyone?

So we can all pick on Slughead for one particular rule in the ruleset, but the reality is that every single person carrying a lithium battery bank on a flight is probably doing so illegally.

 

[deconstruct60]

Yes, but all these were valid till now. Before the statement for the supercomputer iPadPro...
So, I 'm afraid that like the MBP was once upon a time upgradeable, but now became the new Air, like the mini had some options before 2014, or like the 21" iMac, the same will happen eventually to all their offerings...

All of which have shifted to closed cases. The Mac Pro has not and there are no indications that is it gong that way .... other than arm flapping.

There are reasons why the MacBooks closed up. Thinner, Flash (leaving HDDs behind). While the Mac Pro is on the Flash vector, thinner is not. It probably would be useful for it to be a bit taller and wider but neither 6 or 7 inches is thin.

It is simply not space efficient at all to solder down 64 or 128GB of memory. Even after drinking Apple kool-aid it would be obvious that it is not. To maximize effective use of the Mac Pro's volume you need DIMMs. Period.

 

[JimGoshorn]

Making a desktop worse than 6,1 in terms of upgradeability; now, that would be quite an accomplishment.

Oh please, don't give Mr Can't Innovate My Ass a challenge like that. He and the Innovating Amigos might really outdo themselves with the next Mac Pro just to prove a point. Or, they might admit that they can't outdo what they've done already, get bored and just throw the whole thing away.

 

[slughead]

I doubt a single person is meeting all of the regulations for battery banks. The mfr must test the battery according to the UN Manual of Tests and Criteria, Part III, Sub-section 38.3. I seriously doubt all these cheap Chinese made no-name battery banks are properly tested for flying according to UN criteria. Even big US brand names like Yeti that have done the test won't release their test data, which speaks volumes about the results.

Furthermore, the passenger must keep the battery in retail packaging and tape over the contacts to prevent loose metal objects from shorting the battery. Who does this? Anyone?

So we can all pick on Slughead for one particular rule in the ruleset, but the reality is that every single person carrying a lithium battery bank on a flight is probably doing so illegally.

The battery bank I have is name brand. It has a temperature and amperage automatic shut off and has never been hot, though it gets slightly warm sometimes. Outputs a max of around 3 Amps at 19 volts. (more watts at 12v but my laptop doesn't take that). It's also encased in about 1/8 thick metal for heat dissipation.

Yes, the batteries are made in china. Like Apple's.

I'll also point out that the Galaxy note defect was the result (from what I heard) of the battery not having enough room to naturally swell inside of the phone, with internal contacts within the battery becoming shorted either with warming up or slight bends to the device. Did samsung use inferior batteries? probably not.

Once again, there are many millions of these LiIon batteries of all sizes flying every hour and fires are still incredibly rare.

As far as risk, battery fires even in Macbooks have been previously reported at one point in time. The majority of manufacturers have figured out how not to get their asses sued off by making inferior products. I would trust even samsung's knowledge of how to make a battery better than the UN.

It's like nobody ever thought this could happen even though it's happened thousands of times, then the TSA makes some rule and everyone thinks they are literally going to die? Really? You realize you're probably safer than ever, even with the Notebomb factoring into the statistics (and especially now that it's off the market).

 

[ActionableMango]

It's like nobody ever thought this could happen even though it's happened thousands of times, then the TSA makes some rule and everyone thinks they are literally going to die? Really? You realize you're probably safer than ever, even with the Notebomb factoring into the statistics (and especially now that it's off the market).

I think my intent was lost or misinterpreted somewhere. I was attempting to defend you by pointing out that you are not alone and we are all breaking the rules. I myself have brought all kinds of lithium batteries on planes and didn't check UN test regulations, keep it in retail packaging, tape the contacts, etc. Nobody does. It's absurd to believe that anyone does all that.

 

[slughead]

I think my intent was lost or misinterpreted somewhere. I was attempting to defend you by pointing out that you are not alone and we are all breaking the rules. I myself have brought all kinds of lithium batteries on planes and didn't check UN test regulations, keep it in retail packaging, tape the contacts, etc. Nobody does. It's absurd to believe that anyone does all that.

My intent was lost as well, I totally didn't mean to direct 99% of that at you, just the first paragraph.

my bad
[doublepost=1481677455][/doublepost]Also, with the 100 watt-hour limit, I'm pretty sure my laptop is totally exceeding that.

 

[Ph.D.]

Do we really have to continue the battery conversation? Without pointing the finger at anyone:

1) Pascal's Wager: The odds may be very low, but the consequences of something going wrong are INCREDIBLY high. Yes, there are millions of batteries in the air at every moment of every day. That's exactly the point! It's not about any one person and their battery. The odds are indeed extremely low of any one individual battery going bad on a given flight, but the probability of an accident over the span of a year, given the extremely high number of opportunities for something to go wrong, is nevertheless very serious.

2) Airlines have to be able to respond to a fire, and lithium battery fires are extremely hard to deal with. Airlines are now carrying fire-resistant containers for just such incidences. If your battery doesn't fit into it, or if the size of the fire is too great, the poor stewards/stewardesses, etc., won't be able to cope.

3) The day a passenger plane does go down - or even the day a spare battery catches fire but is put out - is the day all such batteries will be banned for good (just like the Notes). The argument that "everyone does it" is what will lead to this, and no one wants that.

I've shipped lithium batteries all around the world, and I've watched these regulations grow more and more onerous. Indeed, I can no longer ship them by air (on cargo planes) without expensive and time consuming paperwork, etc. But there are very serious reasons for the concern and the tightening regulations. The alternative to respecting them is a total ban (or prison). So I'm sorry, but people who are dismissive of them, or who attempt to subvert them because they think the TSA are being jerks about it, or that their batteries are safe, are being selfish and reckless, and eventually one of them will ruin things for everyone.

Signing off, hopefully for good this time.

 

[ActionableMango]

The argument that "everyone does it" is what will lead to this, and no one wants that.

Every single point you made seems reasonable to me.

I want to clarify that when I say everyone does it, I'm not insisting that it is perfectly safe--that's a child argument. When I say everyone does it, I am describing the reality of the world.

 

[AidenShaw]

Can we crowd-fund an epitaph like "Here lies my ass" for Phil's tombstone?

What an incredibly stupid comment for an exec to say at a public event.

Tim should have showed Phil the door before he even left the stage.

Instead, "my ass" is right up there with "you're holding it wrong" and "nobody needs more than 640 KiB" in the folklore of computing - except that Phil said "my ass", and Jobs never said "you're holding it wrong" and Gates never said "nobody needs more than 640 KiB".

 

[Ph.D.]

Can we crowd-fund an epitaph like "Here lies my ass" for Phil's tombstone?

What an incredibly stupid comment for an exec to say at a public event.

I agree (not the crowd-funding part). It was stupid, rude and shockingly unprofessional. I was genuinely taken aback by it. And it's been an albatross over his head ever since. He will likely never live it down.

 

[itdk92]

Watch from minute 8:00

 

[Ethosik]

First it was Intel, then Polaris, then Polaris Pro variations, now it's 490 or Vega...

Face it: Nothing is holding up a nnMP except Apple. Anyone who proclaims that Apple has been just dying to get a nnMP out the door for the last few years but is a serial victim of Intel's or AMD's delays is engaging in wishful thinking or worse.

Thunderbolt 3. And have the new Xeons been a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR boost in performance? My 2010 Mac Pro is competing with my 2015 custom built PC which had the newest CPU generation installed. There weren't any differences. Both are 3.33Ghz. Why is my 2015 custom PC only just as fast as my 2010 Mac Pro?

This whole concept of "Apple is not on the newest processor generation" is just dumb. Gone are the days of a processor offering a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR boost in performance. My 2015 processor was extremely expensive yet it matched my 2010 Mac Pro.