Dave2D has NAILED the new iPadPro

[richpjr]

Not at all. We want more power user features for sure. But we want them to keep the touch interface and workflow methodology. The desktop workflow and methodology does not work for touch nor is it needed for a power user environment if done correctly.

If you take the Surface Pro for example. This device is great for keyboard and mouse, because the OS methodology is designed around it. It’s pretty trash for touch. While touch works it doesn’t work well. And the Microsoft pen is garbage, again it works just not well.

The iPad would suffer the same in regards to a mouse interface being tracked on in a touch environment. It would work, it just wouldn’t work well at all.

Because MS has a clunky UI in their software doesn’t mean it would ruin the iPad, it merely means that MS didn’t get it right. If I’m sitting down with my iPad docked on a keyboard editing a complex document, basic mouse support would be a big timesaver instead of constantly reaching up to touch the screen or using keyboard shortcuts. That in no way ruins the basic iPad experience or workflow, it would enhance it for many. As I mentioned before, if Apple truly thought cursor support was so horrible, why do they offer it in the virtual keyboard? Doesn’t that completely go against the thought that the iPad should be touch only?

 

[RudySnow]

[...] if Apple truly thought cursor support was so horrible, why do they offer it in the virtual keyboard? Doesn’t that completely go against the thought that the iPad should be touch only?

IPad has had cursor selection for text selection since copy/paste was introduced. The fact that Apple included the capability to move a cursor to navigate around text in a virtual keyboard doesn’t go against “touch only” because you can only do so on screen, nor is that the argument people are making. People are suggesting that the addition of a physical piece of hardware, such as a mouse, is anything from a “nice add” to “absolutely critical.”

 

[richpjr]

IPad has had cursor selection for text selection since copy/paste was introduced. The fact that Apple included the capability to move a cursor to navigate around text in a virtual keyboard doesn’t go against “touch only” because you can only do so on screen, nor is that the argument people are making.

But it does in the sense that you are dragging your fingers around the keyboard to move a cursor that is in a different location, exactly how a trackpad works.

People are suggesting that the addition of a physical piece of hardware, such as a mouse, is anything from a “nice add” to “absolutely critical.”

The Apple keyboard is a separate piece of hardware that substantially speeds up typing for people over a virtual keyboard. The Apple pencil is a separate piece of hardware that makes drawing and note taking much more precise than using a finger. A mouse does the same for selecting text and jumping around a document.

We all understand that Apple will do whatever they want. The point of many of these posts is that with a few more enhancements, some people would be much more productive.

 

[RudySnow]

But it does in the sense that you are dragging your fingers around the keyboard to move a cursor that is in a different location, exactly how a trackpad works.



The Apple keyboard is a separate piece of hardware that substantially speeds up typing for people over a virtual keyboard. The Apple pencil is a separate piece of hardware that makes drawing and note taking much more precise than using a finger. A mouse does the same for selecting text and jumping around a document.

We all understand that Apple will do whatever they want. The point of many of these posts is that with a few more enhancements, some people would be much more productive.

I completely get where you’re going, but the keyboard and pencil are not *necessary* pieces of hardware, just “nice to haves” if one wants them. It’s not critical for someone traveling, for instance, to bring these peripherals to use every function on the iPad.

However, if a mouse is integrated, some apps can then become necessary just like macOS apps.CIf Apple felt that they should approve iOS apps for mouse support, why not just slap macOS on a tablet and be done with it. A mouse is essential to macOS software vs. a “nice to have” on iOS, as some here argue. A physical keyboard on macOS is an essential; not so on iOS.

I tried once to put OS10.X on a Mac Mini with a Planar touchscreen, and all I can tell you is that macOS with touch SUCKS, so selling contradicting hardware would drive Apple’s marketing department @_@.

 

[eoblaed]

What’s really preventing the iPad from being a serious contender in the computer space is the lack of mouse and trackpad support.

IMO, in order for it to be a laptop replacement, it would some changes to the OS. The hardware is more than capable at this point. For me, I would need the following:

1. Window based multi-tasking. Not a slide over shared screen thing, but the ability to run apps in different windows much like you do on a traditional computer.
2. Virtual spaces/desktops. Again, like a traditional computer ... perhaps using 3 or 4 finger swipe gesture on the surface to slide between the spaces. This would make it easier to deal with multiple apps up at the same time on a smaller screen (as compared to a 27" monitor, for example).
3. Terminal/shell access.
4. Something approximating a file system. It doesn't have to be the 'full' file system exposing the OS's sensitive bits, even a sandboxed area would be fine.

I love iOS on my phone. And most of the time, I think it's great on my iPad, but despite the fact that these new iPad Pros have plenty of raw power, it's the nature of iOS that keep them from truly replacing my laptop.

 

[RudySnow]

IMO, in order for it to be a laptop replacement, it would some changes to the OS. The hardware is more than capable at this point. For me, I would need the following:

1. Window based multi-tasking. Not a slide over shared screen thing, but the ability to run apps in different windows much like you do on a traditional computer.
2. Virtual spaces/desktops. Again, like a traditional computer ... perhaps using 3 or 4 finger swipe gesture on the surface to slide between the spaces. This would make it easier to deal with multiple apps up at the same time on a smaller screen (as compared to a 27" monitor, for example).
3. Terminal/shell access.
4. Something approximating a file system. It doesn't have to be the 'full' file system exposing the OS's sensitive bits, even a sandboxed area would be fine.

I love iOS on my phone. And most of the time, I think it's great on my iPad, but despite the fact that these new iPad Pros have plenty of raw power, it's the nature of iOS that keep them from truly replacing my laptop.

So, macOS on a single pane of glass. No, not necessary to be a “laptop replacement.” This would only be a laptop “replacement” in your current mode of thought.

 

[secretk]

First, I have enjoyed our discussions in this and another thread.

Thanks! Same from me! Unfortunately I still have not had the option to test out fully the Bluetooth keyboard I have and to test out other options but it's definitely something on my agenda.

I am pretty much at the same point you are, other than I don't have the issues with text selection and movement you are experiencing. I wouldn't mind a mouse interface for iOS, but a part of me thinks we may see some sort of total paradigm shift when Apple moves to ARM. While I agree on the surface that Apple isn't merging macOS and iOS, I could also seem creating a new OS that is more of a blend of the two.

I guess here it's also the philosophical question of what kind of OS we need for a tablet in general. Microsoft tried to map their desktop OS to a tablet experience and based on what I have read here it does not work out that good when it comes to offering tablet experience. Apple tried to map their mobile OS to a tablet experience and for me it does not work out that good when you want to have the laptop experience. It leads me to asking myself whether we need specific OS (or OS with specific features) for 2 in 1 devices - such that can be both tablet and laptop.

I love my iPad and I love my MacBook Pro. I think it will be a while for me before I can replace them with one device. I am reevaluating some of my Mac-only workflows to see if they are really that important to me to stay on macOS.

Yeah it definitely depends on what you are doing with your Mac and how vital that is for you.

What is funny is that I don't actually have time to do anything pro on my laptop so it is never about this. It's just that I could watch a movie on my bigger screen (external monitor) while chatting with a friend on the laptop's main display and do research using 20/30 tabs. At work I tend to chat with numerous people in the same time while working with my Development tools setup and reading code and have open documentation in our internal space.

I just never work with one program. It's always few in the same time and I always do multiple operations in the same time (like chatting with 5 different people in 2 different languages). I could even have also Webex session on one monitor and chat with people in the same time. English is not my native language, but it's the official one at work and some people do not know it that well so they don't always grasp the repercussions of what we are discussing during meetings. So sometimes I have to explain to certain people during meetings via chat so that they could react properly.

And of course those things are possible on an iPad, but for me are still very much cumbersome.

 

[cfurlin]

Exactly the point we are all trying to make. Someone needs to tell Apple's marketing department, though, and all the folks who keep assuring me I'm "wrong" about the iPad. One dude on 9to5Mac even lectured me about being "trapped in the past" because I said iOS in its current state can't support my workflow.

The MacBook supports your workflow. Use it. Apple makes desktops for people who want desktops, laptops for those who want laptops, and mobile devices for those who want mobile devices. Something for everyone.

Stop trying to turn the iPad into a cheap laptop. I'd rather they not add additional functionality into the device that could potentially break the tablet's workflow just to appease a handful of people who cannot seem to understand that Apple already offers two different form factors for those who want to use a mouse.

 

[dspdoc]

Some great points from both sides of the mouse debacle.

 

[richpjr]

I completely get where you’re going, but the keyboard and pencil are not *necessary* pieces of hardware, just “nice to haves” if one wants them. It’s not critical for someone traveling, for instance, to bring these peripherals to use every function on the iPad.

However, if a mouse is integrated, some apps can then become necessary just like macOS apps.CIf Apple felt that they should approve iOS apps for mouse support, why not just slap macOS on a tablet and be done with it. A mouse is essential to macOS software vs. a “nice to have” on iOS, as some here argue. A physical keyboard on macOS is an essential; not so on iOS.

I tried once to put OS10.X on a Mac Mini with a Planar touchscreen, and all I can tell you is that macOS with touch SUCKS, so selling contradicting hardware would drive Apple’s marketing department @_@.

I’m not sure anyone wants a mouse to be mandatory for anything, just “nice to have”, the same as the keyboard and pencil. I would never use it unless I was sitting at a desk, using a keyboard. I would want everything else to work just as it does now, with the option to use a mouse when I need it.

 

[RudySnow]

I’m not sure anyone wants a mouse to be mandatory for anything, just “nice to have”, the same as the keyboard and pencil. I would never use it unless I was sitting at a desk, using a keyboard. I would want everything else to work just as it does now, with the option to use a mouse when I need it.

Yes. “When” you need something isn’t the same as “as” you need it. Thus, the point of an iPad vs. a macOS device. This is the essence of the “iPad Isn’t a Laptop Replacemnt” debate.

 

[richpjr]

Yes. “When” you need something isn’t the same as “as” you need it. Thus, the point of an iPad vs. a macOS device. This is the essence of the “iPad Isn’t a Laptop Replacemnt” debate.

What will happen to this thread if Apple does release apps that work on both iOS and OS X?

 

[RudySnow]

What will happen to this thread if Apple does release apps that work on both iOS and OS X?

I suspect the thread will keep going, because Apple will never do that!!! At least I hope not!!

EDIT: I think Apple WILL release apps on macOS that don’t require mouse input on macOS. Then, the blurring of OS’s occurs. But it won’t be because iOS requires macOS input at all costs, but vice-versa.

 

[zhenya]

The question of why not just buy a MBA or MBP, etc if you want a laptop has been asked (and not sufficiently answered IMO). So let me recast the question.

What is it about the iPad - if it had a pointing device, file browser, and external storage - that would make you choose it over one of the MacBook models?

I have a laptop - two great ones in fact - a 12” Macbook and an X1 Carbon. I still love my iPad. I would love it more if it had capabilities like mouse support and better file management. I love the size and form factor of the iPad. I love that it is ready to go instantly no matter how long it has sat in my bag, that the battery life is seemingly endless, and that it rarely needs intrusive updates or has the kind of lockups that certainly still plague Windows and to a lesser extent MacOS. I love that I can pick up the screen only and jot down notes or read in landscape.

Adding mouse and file management would only make the iPad better. It would do nothing to water-down the experience for those who don’t use them. I don’t think that the UI would need to be changed AT ALL to make the addition of a mouse a huge improvement. One would simply need to drag the cursor to the bottom center to show the dock. Drag to top center to show the notification screen. To the top right to show the shortcut controls. On a trackpad you’d have all the same multi-touch gestures to show multiple apps, switch between apps quickly, close apps, etc. I see no need to modify the UI at all.

File management is just a problem no matter how you use the device. There is no reason there shouldn’t be a centralized finder where we can access ALL of our files. The method now where we need to use a different interface for every cloud provider or hope that each individual app has built in support for our chosen providers, and hope that it allows us to open those files directly rather than importing a copy into that app’s sandbox - it’s a mess. It’s exactly the kind of mess that Apple is supposed to prevent. People expect to work with ONE copy of a file from ONE centralized management interface. Breaking that out on a per-app basis is cumbersome and causes all sorts of duplicate files that become a nightmare to manage.

 

[maflynn]

I suspect the thread will keep going, because Apple will never do that!!! At least I hope not!!

EDIT: I think Apple WILL release apps on macOS that don’t require mouse input on macOS. Then, the blurring of OS’s occurs. But it won’t be because iOS requires macOS input at all costs, but vice-versa.

I wouldn't be surprised to see apple start dedicating more resources to bring the pro apps on macos to iOS and those apps will be updated where as the macos versions will start to whither on the vine.

 

[sracer]

Some great points from both sides of the mouse debacle.

I don't think so. There have been no "great points" made as to why having a choice (an optional alternative at the user's discretion that has no impact on those who don't choose that alternative) is not better than not having that choice.

In other words: I haven't heard any great points as to why choice is bad.
edited for clarity.

 

[tromboneaholic]

Because it would drastically reduce the need for a laptop for all but some very specific niches. All of the things mentioned could easily be added to iOS without ruining the tablet for use as a tablet. People could have the best of both worlds.

I can't say that I disagree with that, but I wouldn't want to see the iPad's strengths watered down. For example, I haven't seen many good examples of apps on any device that support both touch and a mouse-driven cursor on screen. Adobe demonstrated Photoshop using the Apple Pencil as a pointing device, and that seems well-suited for iPad. I think adding a mouse automatically means you're saying "this has to work on a desk" and that makes the iPad less attractive to interact with.
[doublepost=1542372917][/doublepost]

I don't think so. There have been no "great points" made as to why having a choice (an optional alternative at the user's discretion that has no impact on those who don't choose that alternative) is not better than not having that choice.

In other words: I haven't heard any great points as to why choice is bad.
edited for clarity.

Because a mouse takes away the choice of where I can work. If apps start requiring a mouse, they restrict the iPad. I can't just pick it up and work. The pencil solves this problem.

I think if you absolutely need a mouse, then you are one of those niche use cases @richpjr mentioned.

 

[zhenya]

I can't say that I disagree with that, but I wouldn't want to see the iPad's strengths watered down. For example, I haven't seen many good examples of apps on any device that support both touch and a mouse-driven cursor on screen. Adobe demonstrated Photoshop using the Apple Pencil as a pointing device. I think adding a mouse automatically means you're saying "this has to work on a desk" and that makes the iPad less attractive to interact with.

I presume you are primarily referring to Windows, which has not done a great job of integrating touch to what is primarily a mouse interface, but that says a lot more about the difficulty of adapting a mouse interface to touch (and Microsoft’s ability to do so) than vice-versa. Windows was not only designed from the ground up for a mouse interface, with lots of small interface elements, but more importantly, those elements were never designed to scale in the way that modern operating systems are intended to. That’s why it feels like a hack.

Going in the opposite direction should prove almost trivial in comparison. It doesn’t matter that touch targets are bigger than necessary for a mouse. In fact, as I outlined above, a mouse interface could be added to iOS with essentially zero changes to the UI. There is no need for title bars or minimize close buttons or scroll bars. The primary thing that adding a mouse would do would improve cursor placement and text selection and re-organization - something that touch has proven particularly ill-suited to.

 

[tromboneaholic]

Going in the opposite direction should prove almost trivial in comparison. It doesn’t matter that touch targets are bigger than necessary for a mouse. In fact, as I outlined above, a mouse interface could be added to iOS with essentially zero changes to the UI. There is no need for title bars or minimize close buttons or scroll bars. The primary thing that adding a mouse would do would improve cursor placement and text selection and re-organization - something that touch has proven particularly ill-suited to.

It's not about the user interface. It's about the user experience. Unless the mouse floats in the air, the user has to use it on a solid, flat surface.
The Pencil can be used as a pointing device right on the screen, so it doesn't degrade the iPad by limiting the user's choice of where they can use an iPad.

 

[zhenya]

It's not about the user interface. It's about the user experience. Unless the mouse floats in the air, the user has to use it on a solid, flat surface.
The Pencil can be used as a pointing device right on the screen, so it doesn't degrade the iPad by limiting the user's choice of where they can use an iPad.

Someone who is using a mouse will most likely be sitting at a desk. And hopefully Apple would offer an updated keyboard case with a trackpad. Again, the important part is that it can be integrated such that it gives options to people who want the capability and those who don’t would see no change whatsoever.

 

[sracer]

I can't say that I disagree with that, but I wouldn't want to see the iPad's strengths watered down. For example, I haven't seen many good examples of apps on any device that support both touch and a mouse-driven cursor on screen. Adobe demonstrated Photoshop using the Apple Pencil as a pointing device, and that seems well-suited for iPad. I think adding a mouse automatically means you're saying "this has to work on a desk" and that makes the iPad less attractive to interact with.
[doublepost=1542372917][/doublepost]
Because a mouse takes away the choice of where I can work. If apps start requiring a mouse, they restrict the iPad. I can't just pick it up and work. The pencil solves this problem.

I think if you absolutely need a mouse, then you are one of those niche use cases @richpjr mentioned.

No, having optional support for a mouse does not take away the choice of where you can work. Android has had mouse support for years and it hasn't caused apps to require a mouse. Why do you think that iOS would suffer a different fate?

 

[seadragon]

Because a mouse takes away the choice of where I can work. If apps start requiring a mouse, they restrict the iPad. I can't just pick it up and work. The pencil solves this problem.

Glass half empty vs full.

My take on this is that a mouse gives me an additional choice of where I can work comfortably, on a desk surface. And I don’t understand the “apps start requiring a mouse” bit. Apps wouldn’t require anything. If it works with a pencil as a point and click device, it works with a mouse. Besides, doesn’t Apple have strict interface guidelines to keep the user experience consistent?

I just don’t see any negative to offering mouse/trackpad support because it would be *optional*.

 

[maflynn]

the user has to use it on a solid, flat surface.

Not exactly the point your trying to put forth, but I found the 12.9" not to be very holdable. It had to be on a desk for extended periods. This was one reason why I returned the 12.9 and opted for the 10.5 last year.

I wonder with the smaller bezel's of the 11, how holdable it will be, I find on occasion my palm hitting the screen area on my 10.5, that must be even more of an issue on the 11"

 

[zhenya]

I wonder with the smaller bezel's of the 11, how holdable it will be, I find on occasion my palm hitting the screen area on my 10.5, that must be even more of an issue on the 11"

I find the new 11” easier to hold than my 9.7” Pro. The weight balance seems to be a bit better and the chamfered edge always cut into my palm in an uncomfortable way. I believe the new 11” has slightly wider side bezels than the 10.5” in order to make it even on all 4 sides.

 

[maflynn]

And I don’t understand the “apps start requiring a mouse” bit. Apps wouldn’t require anything

I use my laptop for remote access. I support and maintain PCs and servers. In that narrow use case, a mouse is the absolutely best option. I've used my iPad in a pinch to access a server and it was horrible.

I'm a big proponent for picking the right tool for the job and there are use cases for a mouse. Excel is another good example where navigating large spreadsheets doing various input is better with a mouse and a physical keyboard.