Dave2D has NAILED the new iPadPro

[tromboneaholic]

Not exactly the point your trying to put forth, but I found the 12.9" not to be very holdable. It had to be on a desk for extended periods. This was one reason why I returned the 12.9 and opted for the 10.5 last year.

I wonder with the smaller bezel's of the 11, how holdable it will be, I find on occasion my palm hitting the screen area on my 10.5, that must be even more of an issue on the 11"

When the original 12.9 pro came out, I thought it was big and heavy when I held one at work that someone brought in. I wouldn't want to hold it for extended periods of time.

I don't know about the new 12.9, but the 11 inch iPad pro feels as easy to handle as my iPad Air 2.

 

[infernoguy]

I’ve realized that the keyboard forces this debate and has done so for as long as the IPad Pro debut.

Once I traded the keyboard in for the Smart Cover Folio and the new Pencil, the debate washed away. The 11 inch that I have is no longer a laptop replacement. The pencil differentiates it from the phone and laptop and at least for me allows it to fit comfortably in my workflow.

 

[zhenya]

I’ve realized that the keyboard forces this debate and has done so for as long as the IPad Pro debut.

Once I traded the keyboard in for the Smart Cover Folio and the new Pencil, the debate washed away. The 11 inch that I have is no longer a laptop replacement. The pencil differentiates it from the phone and laptop and at least for me allows it to fit comfortably in my workflow.

I was at that point many years ago - the iPad was better as a supplement to a laptop than trying to force the two into one device (a-la Surface Pro). Yet today I see it a bit differently. The iPad is not in any danger of entirely replacing my laptop, but the limitations Apple is foisting on it are harmful to the iPad as a platform. I don’t need to entirely replace my laptop to make me appreciate the ability to do a few more things on the iPad without having to boot up the laptop. I watch so many people working with iPads on commuter jets, where the form factor of the iPad is far superior to a laptop as even small laptops don’t fit well on the tray table - struggling to do simple things that would be so much easier if Apple just gave them a trackpad. It doesn’t have to be either-or. The iPad can get better without impacting what makes it special now.

 

[tromboneaholic]

No, having optional support for a mouse does not take away the choice of where you can work. Android has had mouse support for years and it hasn't caused apps to require a mouse. Why do you think that iOS would suffer a different fate?

I'd love to see a good example of an app that offers both a good touch and a good mouse experience if you care to share any.

The iPad is a touch-first device that can support a Pencil (stylus).
MacBooks are trackpad-first devices that can support a mouse.
The iMac is a mouse-first device that can support a trackpad.

Adobe's demo of Photoshop was a preview of an app that can run on all three devices using those input methods. I think instead of asking for the iPad to change, it might be the apps that need to change.

For me, the iPad has completely replaced my laptop. That said, I still need a desktop computer just because of the performance vs a laptop. I still have a 15 inch Early 2011 MacBook pro sitting in the corner of my desk, but it hasn't been updated to a newer laptop because it has been completely replaced by the iPad for me. To me the 11 inch iPad Pro is a bargain compared to the MacBook it's replacing.

So for me the iPad is a laptop replacement, but not a desktop replacement.

 

[sracer]

I'd love to see a good example of an app that offers both a good touch and a good mouse experience if you care to share any.

That is irrelevant to my point. Whether or not an app can offer a "good" experience is subjective. The issue is about choice. Choice that doesn't impede someone who doesn't want that choice.

The iPad is a touch-first device that can support a Pencil (stylus).
MacBooks are trackpad-first devices that can support a mouse.
The iMac is a mouse-first device that can support a trackpad.

Adobe's demo of Photoshop was a preview of an app that can run on all three devices using those input methods. I think instead of asking for the iPad to change, it might be the apps that need to change.

For me, the iPad has completely replaced my laptop. That said, I still need a desktop computer just because of the performance vs a laptop. I still have a 15 inch Early 2011 MacBook pro sitting in the corner of my desk, but it hasn't been updated to a newer laptop because it has been completely replaced by the iPad for me. To me the 11 inch iPad Pro is a bargain compared to the MacBook it's replacing.

So for me the iPad is a laptop replacement, but not a desktop replacement.

I asked why you think that the iOS UX will somehow suffer by including optional support for a mouse when Android (that DOES offer optional support for a mouse) has not suffered.

You offer nothing beyond what you prefer. You prefer that iOS NOT provide that optional support. And that is fine, that is your preference. I'm not trying to convince you that you should want to use a mouse on an iOS device, I'm simply asking the question that remains unanswered... why is choice bad when it won't affect you?

 

[tromboneaholic]

That is irrelevant to my point. Whether or not an app can offer a "good" experience is subjective. The issue is about choice. Choice that doesn't impede someone who doesn't want that choice.

I asked why you think that the iOS UX will somehow suffer by including optional support for a mouse when Android (that DOES offer optional support for a mouse) has not suffered.

You offer nothing beyond what you prefer. You prefer that iOS NOT provide that optional support. And that is fine, that is your preference. I'm not trying to convince you that you should want to use a mouse on an iOS device, I'm simply asking the question that remains unanswered... why is choice bad when it won't affect you?

I actually think you are ignoring most of the points in my post in order to frame it about my preference. I used the upcoming Photoshop as an example of an app for iPad that has been reworked from the desktop and laptop versions to take advantage of the iPad and its pointing device.

Without being able to point to an app on any platform that offers a good experience using either touch or mouse, you don't have much of an argument I think.

I really think it would be more productive to discuss how other developers could take advantage of this new tool with their apps, rather than expect the new tool to be exactly the same as the old one.

As far as my preference goes, I prefer that the iPad's strength not be watered down by the introduction of apps that would tether it to a desk.

You are framing your argument about choice, but you have the choice to buy an iPad or a laptop. No one is taking that choice away. Use the right tool for the job, and don't get upset when a hammer isn't a screwdriver.

 

[zhenya]

I actually think you are ignoring most of the points in my post in order to frame it about my preference. I used the upcoming Photoshop as an example of an app for iPad that has been reworked from the desktop and laptop versions to take advantage of the iPad and its pointing device.

Without being able to point to an app on any platform that offers a good experience using either touch or mouse, you don't have much of an argument I think.

I really think it would be more productive to discuss how other developers could take advantage of this new tool with their apps, rather than expect the new tool to be exactly the same as the old one.

As far as my preference goes, I prefer that the iPad's strength not be watered down by the introduction of apps that would tether it to a desk.

You are framing your argument about choice, but you have the choice to buy an iPad or a laptop. No one is taking that choice away. Use the right tool for the job, and don't get upset when a hammer isn't a screwdriver.

It has been shown multiple times that extending the iPad’s tool kit to include keyboard and stylus support has not impacted the use of those people who choose not to use them in any way. The stylus should be the biggest thing that drives this point home given that iOS was designed to specifically work without one.

Mouse interfaces adapted for touch don’t work because the mouse is inherently so much more precise that touch targets often end up too small. The opposite can’t be true then. Any interface that is optimized for touch can also work well with a mouse. A mouse is simply a more precise touch mechanism.

 

[seadragon]

It’s very simple. If you can use a pencil, you can use a mouse.

 

[tromboneaholic]

It’s very simple. If you can use a pencil, you can use a mouse.

The converse is true. I'm not sure what point that makes since we have already Pencil support on the iPad.

 

[seadragon]

The converse is true. I'm not sure what point that makes since we have already Pencil support on the iPad.

The point is, when the iPad is docked in the Smart Keyboard on a desk, a mouse would be much easier to use vs constantly pickup up a pencil and raising one's hand above the surface to use it. It would be an additional yet optional method of interacting with the screen. What possible downside is there to this? It has nothing to do with the iPad or iOS becoming a desktop computer. It has to do with ergonomics and choice.

 

[tromboneaholic]

Mouse interfaces adapted for touch don’t work because the mouse is inherently so much more precise that touch targets often end up too small. The opposite can’t be true then. Any interface that is optimized for touch can also work well with a mouse. A mouse is simply a more precise touch mechanism.

I would disagree that the mouse is more precise than the Pencil as a touch mechanism.

The mouse abstracts the hand motion into a metaphor, adding another layer both mentally and physically.

Also, in its current form the mouse requires a third piece of hardware (a surface to be used upon), limiting the iPad.

 

[sracer]

I actually think you are ignoring most of the points in my post in order to frame it about my preference. I used the upcoming Photoshop as an example of an app for iPad that has been reworked from the desktop and laptop versions to take advantage of the iPad and its pointing device.

Without being able to point to an app on any platform that offers a good experience using either touch or mouse, you don't have much of an argument I think.

I really think it would be more productive to discuss how other developers could take advantage of this new tool with their apps, rather than expect the new tool to be exactly the same as the old one.

As far as my preference goes, I prefer that the iPad's strength not be watered down by the introduction of apps that would tether it to a desk.

You are framing your argument about choice, but you have the choice to buy an iPad or a laptop. No one is taking that choice away. Use the right tool for the job, and don't get upset when a hammer isn't a screwdriver.

You have not explained how expanding the user's choice waters down the iPad's strength.

This is the same argument that the community had with regard to an active stylus (and physical keyboards before that). The anti-choice position used the same arguments that you are using against having a mouse. They expressed concern about how providing an active stylus will water down the UX and confuse users. They claimed that physical keyboards will be a problem because of the keyboard shortcuts that aren't available on the onscreen keyboard.

In the end, it was only when Apple provided an active Stylus and keyboard did those groups come around. Should Apple provide mouse support, it will happen again.

 

[Koh Phi Phi]

I'd love to see a good example of an app that offers both a good touch and a good mouse experience if you care to share any.

Have you every used an Android tablet with a cursor? it operates in the exact same way as pegging icons with your finger, but you click with your cursor instead. I repeat: Absolutely nothing in the OS or Apps user flow changes. Just clicking instead of tapping.

I have been doing that with my Galaxy Tab S4, and it works wonders toward full laptop replacement!

 

[seadragon]

I would disagree that the mouse is more precise than the Pencil as a touch mechanism.

The mouse abstracts the hand motion into a metaphor, adding another layer both mentally and physically.

Also, in its current form the mouse requires a third piece of hardware (a surface to be used upon), limiting the iPad.

You are really overcomplicating this. You make is sound like using a mouse (or trackpad for that matter) is some special skill that needs to be acquired and honed. It's a mouse for crying out loud. If you can point with a pencil, you can point with a mouse. I use a Citrix X1 mouse with my iPad all the time when logged into VM's at work.

 

[tromboneaholic]

The point is, when the iPad is docked in the Smart Keyboard on a desk, a mouse would be much easier to use vs constantly pickup up a pencil and raising one's hand above the surface to use it. It would be an additional yet optional method of interacting with the screen. What possible downside is there to this? It has nothing to do with the iPad or iOS becoming a desktop computer. It has to do with ergonomics and choice.

It really seems the discussion about the mouse is an instance of focusing on a hardware solution to a software problem.
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You are really overcomplicating this. You make is sound like using a mouse (or trackpad for that matter) is some special skill that needs to be acquired and honed. It's a mouse for crying out loud. If you can point with a pencil, you can point with a mouse. I use a Citrix X1 mouse with my iPad all the time when logged into VM's at work.

You make it sound like because you've been using a mouse for ages, it isn't some bizarre skill that needs to be acquired and honed.

 

[seadragon]

It really seems the discussion about the mouse is an instance of focusing on a hardware solution to a software problem.

How is it a software problem? I honestly don't understand your point. Ergonomically, it is generally more comfortable to keep one's hands along a horizontal plane when using the iPad docked. it a physical issue where a screen in mounted vertically on a desk that has nothing to do with software.

 

[tromboneaholic]

Have you every used an Android tablet with a cursor? it operates in the exact same way as pegging icons with your finger, but you click with your cursor instead. I repeat: Absolutely nothing in the OS or Apps user flow changes. Just clicking instead of tapping.

I have been doing that with my Galaxy Tab S4, and it works wonders toward full laptop replacement!

Perfect! You've got a cheap laptop! Problem solved.

 

[Raist3001]

The device you’re asking for already exists, it’s called MacBook!

Yet apple is positioning the iPad as a laptop replacement, you know the device with a track pad.

iOS is not designed for anything else than a finger. Everything, like EVERYTHING, including all apps would have to be redesigned.

And yet somehow the jailbreak community was able to give us a mouse pointer without any apps needing a redesign. Oh and apple gave us the pencil which is most definitely not a finger.

 

[Koh Phi Phi]

Perfect! You've got a cheap laptop! Problem solved.

It puzzles me why you refuse to see the point of this debate... I have NOT gotten a cheap laptop... I have gotten a true 2-in-1 machine that is ALWAYS with me: both when Im docked to the keyboard+mouse at the desktop and I need to do some proper work, as well as when I'm flat in the couch and I simply watch to browse the internet or YouTube.

That is the point: you have a tablet when you want a tablet, and a laptop when you want a laptop... both in ONE device!

Seriously man, Im not sure exactly what you're trying to argue against here...

 

[tromboneaholic]

You have not explained how expanding the user's choice waters down the iPad's strength.

This is the same argument that the community had with regard to an active stylus (and physical keyboards before that). The anti-choice position used the same arguments that you are using against having a mouse. They expressed concern about how providing an active stylus will water down the UX and confuse users. They claimed that physical keyboards will be a problem because of the keyboard shortcuts that aren't available on the onscreen keyboard.

In the end, it was only when Apple provided an active Stylus and keyboard did those groups come around. Should Apple provide mouse support, it will happen again.

I always thought the popularity of the iPhone and iPad were largely due to not needing to use a stylus, just like the iPod's initial popularity had a lot to do with the click wheel. And I think they knew people had an emotional connection to the devices because of that direct interaction.

I never bought into Steve's arguments about needing to sharpen someone's finger so they could use a smaller screen on the iPad, at a time when they didn't offer a stylus.

However, when they did offer a stylus, it came in the form of the Pencil that offered more functionality than the PDA stylus did.

If they do offer another pointing device for iPad, it will have to bring something to the table that a current mouse and laptop doesn't.

 

[Knowimagination]

I think that the problem is that what Apple is really positioning the iPad as seems to be an alternative to a laptop that can replace a laptop not because it works exactly like a laptop.

Laptop replacement does not have to equal a 1:1 experience with a laptop. I don’t know why people assume that something replacing something else has to work exactly the same as what it is replacing. If I replace my car with a bicycle for my morning commute I can’t get mad at the bicycle when it doesn’t have an accelerator pedal.

I personally would rather see the software developed to improve a new experience rather than just force the iPad to fit into the same old thing that every other laptop is in.

Obviously there seem to be two groups of people here one group wants the iPad to work just like a laptop/ 2 in 1 so that they can go to one device without having to change anything about their workflow.

Another group wants the iPad to continue to develop in a way that stays true to the purposes the device has developed into and wants to see the software and users adapt to a completely new experience.

The nice thing is that neither of those groups is inherently wrong or right but some people seem to be arguing like there is only one right answer. I personally prefer to adapt myself to the iPad and wait for software developers to figure out how to elevate the experience given the tools we have for the iPad, but at the same time I understand others are looking for something different. I will be disappointed if the iPad goes the way of the 2 in 1 but if that happens I will have to make a decision at that time if it is something I want to continue using for my primary device.

 

[Tsepz]

That might be true for the iPhones and the first iPads but today with iPads that are beating i7 notebooks on computing power and prices till $2000 the demands are growing too....I think IOS for iPads has to go beyond this initial purpose.

Absolutely agreed! I am looking to replace my aging iPad Air 2 LTE with a LTE iPad Pro, but I am finding it hard to justify considering how incredibly limited iOS is. It's understandable on the iPhone, but the iPad should bring the basic productivity stuff at the very least.

 

[tromboneaholic]

I personally would rather see the software developed to improve a new experience rather than just force the iPad to fit into the same old thing that every other laptop is in.

Thankfully this seems to be the direction.

 

[Koh Phi Phi]

I think that the problem is that what Apple is really positioning the iPad as seems to be an alternative to a laptop that can replace a laptop not because it works exactly like a laptop.

Laptop replacement does not have to equal a 1:1 experience with a laptop.

I agree with this statement: a laptop replacement (in the shape of an iPad) does NOT have to be a laptop carbon copy. I am 100% with you there. The iPad Pro must remain faithful to what it is: a tablet first and foremost.

However, a laptop replacement must fulfill some minimum basics that iOS simply cannot provide at the moment. We have reviewed quite some of those basics over this thread: proper control/management over your files, USB connection with external storage (such as a USB pen drive) for backups and file transportation, etc.

I mean, how can you replace your laptop if you dont even have control over the files stored in your own device?!?!

Some real-world case scenarios for proper "Pro" users:

• Imagine I'm working on PhotoShop in my iPad Pro, editing a high-res, multi-layered 500 Mb picture in raw format and it's looking pimp! but then, I wanna transfer it to my PC for some final touches... how am I to transfer that file? Do I have to wait 15 minutes to upload that file to the cloud?!?!
  
  
• Imagine a colleague from work needs to pass me in a USB pen drive a zipped file with all the corporate documents I must review and sign over the weekend... how do I unzip those files? how do I plug in the pen drive?!?

Those are not made up or obscure scenarios. Those are as real world situations "pro" users face every day.

Nah... it does not have to be a laptop equal, but it certainly has to provide some basic must-haves.

 

[jinnyman]

Given iPad Pro's price level and Apple's direction in improving its performance beyond some x86 chips, I also think the current iOS is the bottle neck.

Much of its performance is wasted right now. Why do you need A12 really? Why people still use old iPad? Because slower ipads are still plentiful for what they can do. Unless iOS for iPad is expanded for more serious users, all the performance are just marketing thing to justify its high price. Though I gotta admit that it's one hell of gaming machine.

And yes. Mouse is still needed because no tool is more effective than keyboard & mouse when it comes to text editing. period.