Dave2D has NAILED the new iPadPro

[Nugget]

It's like arguing about whether apps will require the use of the also *optional* Apple Pencil to be used effectively. I really don't see what the concern is here. If the app works with a pencil, it will work with a mouse or trackpad for that matter.

It's similar, yes, but I don't think we can learn much from the Apple Pencil in this regard. There aren't three decades of historical pencil-centric applications and users putting pressure on the app ecosystem the same way there are with mouse support. The Pencil's strengths and features don't overlap nearly as much with touch input as a mouse does. It's not the same dynamic at all.

Plus, we can already point to several apps which are basically useless without an Apple Pencil. I doubt any people are using Procreate with just their index finger, for example. The Procreate app has many touch targets which are too small to easily use with a finger, because they just assume that users are using the more precise Apple Pencil. So, while it technically works without the Pencil, it's a rough experience if you don't have one. This is precisely the sort of corrosive decline in user experience that some people fear might arise from an officially supported mouse input for a much broader range of application classes.

With Procreate it's not really a problem because the Venn diagram of people who want to use Procreate and people who have an Apple Pencil is basically a solid circle. Is that true for a spreadsheet? Not at all.

With the Pencil the challenge seems limited to just the narrow slice of apps where the Pencil adds significant capabilities (drafting, artistic, etc). But with a mouse the risk isn't as limited and could potentially impact all sorts of apps across the whole spectrum of app categories.

 

[dspdoc]

I don't think so. There have been no "great points" made as to why having a choice (an optional alternative at the user's discretion that has no impact on those who don't choose that alternative) is not better than not having that choice.

In other words: I haven't heard any great points as to why choice is bad.
edited for clarity.

Disagree. Isn’t that a wonderful thing, the ability to disagree?

 

[DaveOZ]

Wow, this thread needs merging into the the iPad > Computer thread.

 

[RudySnow]

Wow, this thread needs merging into the the iPad > Computer thread.

Agreed! I suggested that about 200 posts ago to no avail.

 

[jeremiah256]

Most of you posting how the iPad needs mouse support fall in to one of two camps, or both:

• You are afraid that Apple will discontinue selling products that run macOS
• You are unable or unwilling to adapt to using iOS as your daily driver

I do believe there is compelling evidence to these fears, as Apple continues to sell more iPads than macOS products; Apple has a history of dropping popular hardware features on products for their vision of innovation (i.e., headphone jack, CD-ROM drives, FireWire ports, etc.) and mouse support could be next; the iPad is a more affordable device; iPads get more powerful and are updated more frequently than macOS devices; and developers now make more money and focus more attention on iOS software than macOS.

However, there is and for the near future still remain folks who need macOS, and the features of that software can’t/don’t/wouldn’t transfer well to a touch-input device, just as a touch-input screen wouldn’t work well with macOS. IMO, we don’t need to cannibalize one or the other to accommodate your fears in the bullet points above. Until those two points are “overcome,” the iPad Isn’t a Real Laptop debate will droll on forever.

I don’t agree with your analysis, but I want to focus specifically on your point about us that want mouse support not being open or unable to adapt to new workflows.

I used Unix and DOS in the 1990’s. When Windows 3.1 came, the GUI became my main way to get things done, but I didn’t abandon the command line. I used each when appropriate. On the same device. Even today, with the superior macOS and iOS UI’s, it is still appropriate to open up a terminal if it offers the superior workflow.


So no, what I see is projection. I see mental inflexibility on the ‘non-mouse for iOS’ side as they seem to think that workflow tools, for some strange reason, need to be confined to specific form factors.

Apple is wrong or using misdirection if they say touch screens don’t belong on laptops, and they are equally wrong if they believe mouse support doesn’t belong on tablets.

 

[zhenya]

I think the argument goes something like this: If Apple adds optional support for the mouse, then the App Store is going to become polluted with a non-zero number of applications that de facto require a mouse due to lazy developers making terrible ports of desktop apps without truly confronting the different usage style that a tablet brings. This will, over time, end up with a situation where you pretty much have to have a mouse lying around for your iPad for those apps where the developers avoided spending the time and resources embracing the touch/tablet interface.

The world of iPad ownership then becomes a frustrating exercise of monitoring app reviews and comments to learn if any particular app can be used successfully without a mouse. Sometimes you're going to download an app and then discover that it can't really be used effectively without that "optional" mouse.

Whether or not you think that this scenario is likely it's fair to say that the argument has merit. There are a lot of lazy developers out there, and a lot of iPad apps that started their life as desktop apps. Apple's historical ability to filter on "quality of user experience" when approving apps for the store is uneven at best. It's not a totally paranoid fear.

I'm reminded of the related situation where Apple orginally mandated that all Apple TV games had to work with just the Apple Remote, presumably stemming from similar concerns. It's definitely worth noting that Apple have since backed-away from this position because it proved to be terribly limiting to developers and ended up excluding many games from the platform entirely.

Except that we already have the real-world results of Apple adding an official keyboard and stylus to draw from. None of those doomsday scenarios happened. Instead, the iPad got a LOT better.

The question becomes WHY would you do this. Look at the picture you posted with your byzantine, awkward, antiquated setup that is hamstrung by limited mobile software and applications, an oldschool mouse, a screen that is a stretch to reach with a ridiculous stand... And then look at this... which is what you're actually trying to achieve but in a very ugly way.

Can I take that screen off and read a magazine or newspaper, or start taking notes or highlighting a document? No. So it’s not even remotely the same thing.

 

[DoubleFlyaway]

You are really overcomplicating this. You make is sound like using a mouse (or trackpad for that matter) is some special skill that needs to be acquired and honed. It's a mouse for crying out loud. If you can point with a pencil, you can point with a mouse. I use a Citrix X1 mouse with my iPad all the time when logged into VM's at work.

I would buy this if I didn’t remember seeing a mouse for the first time when my big brother brought one home with him from college, having only used DOS-based programs previously (I’m 40). I was TERRIBLE at using it. Made big erratic movements and had to learn to make small, controlled ones. Using a mouse is actually an acquired skill.

I’m not really weighing in on the debate, just found it interesting that this was being taken for granted.

 

[seadragon]

I would buy this if I didn’t remember seeing a mouse for the first time when my big brother brought one home with him from college, having only used DOS-based programs previously (I’m 40). I was TERRIBLE at using it. Made big erratic movements and had to learn to make small, controlled ones. Using a mouse is actually an acquired skill.

I’m not really weighing in on the debate, just found it interesting that this was being taken for granted.

Yes, but it’s 2018. Everyone should know how to use a mouse.

 

[Knowimagination]

Except that we already have the real-world results of Apple adding an official keyboard and stylus to draw from. None of those doomsday scenarios happened. Instead, the iPad got a LOT better.

This is not an argument, if you don’t see the difference between a direct input device that is more precise than a finger, and an indirect input device I don’t really know what to tell you.

Trying to act like adding a mouse would definitely improve the experience just like a physical keyboard and the pencil is disingenuous. We have no idea if it would improve or ruin the experience. In my opinion it is much more likely to make my experience worse over the long run than better.

 

[rowspaxe]

So until Apple is being run by someone not Tim Cook, Jonny Ive etc stop expecting them to ‘Surface’ the iPad

The point is not users expecting it, but desiring it.

 

[DoubleFlyaway]

Yes, but it’s 2018. Everyone should know how to use a mouse.

Maybe, maybe not, though. As a parent of an elementary-aged child, I’m not sure that will be her experience. It’s just a piece of technology— not something permanent.

 

[rowspaxe]

And since Apple has said that they have no desire to do that or to meld MacOS and iOS a la the Surface, settle in for the ad nauseum threads

Other things Apple had no interest in: multitasking, stylus, monitor support, etc
[doublepost=1542405764][/doublepost]

Maybe, maybe not, though. As a parent of an elementary-aged child, I’m not sure that will be her experience. It’s just a piece of technology— not something permanent.

qwerty keyboard had been around 145 years. Mouse input is roughly 40 years old. I don't expect
either to disappear in the foreseeable future
[doublepost=1542406107][/doublepost]

Of COURSE[a mouse] it is a “superior form of input” and has been for about 40 years—but only so FOR THE DEVICE OF WHICH A MOUSE IS INTENDED.

The efficiency of the mouse is not device specific, it is task specific. Spreadsheets, word processing,
and other tasks just better with a mouse.

 

[seadragon]

Maybe, maybe not, though. As a parent of an elementary-aged child, I’m not sure that will be her experience. It’s just a piece of technology— not something permanent.

Who knows what the future holds. The mouse is however current technology that I personally don’t see it disappearing anytime soon. A trackpad is its closest competitor.

 

[RudySnow]

Apple is wrong or using misdirection if they say touch screens don’t belong on laptops, and they are equally wrong if they believe mouse support doesn’t belong on tablets.

Apple never said that touchscreen “[doesn’t[ belong on laptops.” I specifically remember an interview from years past in which Ive and team tested the feasibility of touch screens on macOS devices, and found the experience with macOS isn’t practical. I can attest to this as I’ve tried it myself.

https://thenextweb.com/apple/2016/1...touchscreen-macs-wouldnt-useful-hypocritical/

In that vein, I would bet the farm that Apple tested mouse support for iOS and found it to not be a great user experience for iOS devices.

Also worth a read to rebut your assertion:

https://www.cnet.com/news/mac-os-macbook-pro-and-ipad-ios-arent-merging-get-over-it/

So, no, Apple isn’t “wrong” and I disagree with you because the premise of your response is inaccurate.
[doublepost=1542407286][/doublepost]

The point is not users expecting it, but desiring it.

Steve Jobs:

“Some people say, ‘Give the customers what they want.’ But that's not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want before they do. I think Henry Ford once said, ‘If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have told me, 'A faster horse!'’ People don't know what they want until you show it to them. That's why I never rely on market research. Our task is to read things that are not yet on the page.”​

 

[jeremiah256]

Apple never said that touchscreen “[doesn’t[ belong on laptops.” I specifically remember an interview from years past in which Ive and team tested the feasibility of touch screens on macOS devices, and found the experience with macOS isn’t practical. I can attest to this as I’ve tried it myself.

https://thenextweb.com/apple/2016/1...touchscreen-macs-wouldnt-useful-hypocritical/

In that vein, I would bet the farm that Apple tested mouse support for iOS and found it to not be a great user experience for iOS devices.

Also worth a read to rebut your assertion:

https://www.cnet.com/news/mac-os-macbook-pro-and-ipad-ios-arent-merging-get-over-it/

So, no, Apple isn’t “wrong” and I disagree with you because the premise of your response is inaccurate.
[doublepost=1542407286][/doublepost]

Steve Jobs:

“Some people say, ‘Give the customers what they want.’ But that's not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want before they do. I think Henry Ford once said, ‘If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have told me, 'A faster horse!'’ People don't know what they want until you show it to them. That's why I never rely on market research. Our task is to read things that are not yet on the page.”​

Steve Jobs poo pooed touch screens not because it was impractical due to macOS, but because of gorilla arms. They’ve since walked that back since, as your own posted article points out, anyone with an iPad and keyboard is touching their screen, as it (touching a screen attached to a keyboard) is a valid workflow for specific tasks.

As for any Apple research against using a mouse with an iPad, I doubt it. People have been jail breaking iPads to add mouse support for years. There are members of this forum that rave about the Citrix mouse solution they use. Apple is slow rolling out mouse support. Maybe there is a civil war going on internal between the same camps, I don’t know. What I do know is that I haven’t seen one logical argument on why not to add mouse support, from Apple nor from anyone else.

About merging of the two OSes, that is not my argument. I’m in total agreement that macOS and iOS have, primarily, two different workflows. What I’m saying is that there is no reason to not adopt specific tools from one workflow to use in another. Apple agrees with this or they would not have added the Touch Bar to macOS as a compromise. And I believe they will also compromise and give us a pointer in iOS.

Lastly, Steve Jobs was a master at many things, including saying one thing while planning for exactly what he may have just dismissed. So while they may say market research does not drive them, Apple does use it as much as anyone, just in their unique way.

 

[Azathoth123]

Well, why couldn’t the pencil be a mouse? Maybe needs a button or two?

 

[RudySnow]

About merging of the two OSes, that is not my argument. I’m in total agreement that macOS and iOS have, primarily, two different workflows. What I’m saying is that there is no reason to not adopt specific tools from one workflow to use in another. Apple agrees with this or they would not have added the Touch Bar to macOS as a compromise. And I believe they will also compromise and give us a pointer in iOS.

A Touch Bar vs. adding touch to a laptop screen is an apples to oranges comparison to the point of this thread. (Even in that regard, I wouldn’t classify that as a “compromise” either).

There have been plenty of arguments against adding a mouse, in this thread and elsewhere that are perfectly logical and proper for the purpose of iOS. If you can’t see that, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[rowspaxe]

Well, why couldn’t the pencil be a mouse? Maybe needs a button or two?

The mouse operates on a 2d flat surface. the pencil operates on a tilted surface in 3d space.
The mouse allows the user to rest arm on supporting table. The pencil requires the user
to extend arm. Hence the 'gorilla arm' problem.
[doublepost=1542416892][/doublepost]

Apple is slow rolling out mouse support. Maybe there is a civil war going on internal between the same camps, I don’t know. What I do know is that I haven’t seen one logical argument on why not to add mouse support, from Apple nor from anyone else.

I also see this as a 'slow roll'. There is now monitor and keyboard support for the ipad. But none of it works very well. A keyboard without a trackpad is garbage. The monitor implementation is a novelty.
So the momentum of this direction will lead inevitably to a surface like device. Otherwise you have
a very expensive, and yet gimped, product.

 

[cfurlin]

They aren’t going to go away so long as Apple ‘refuses’ to do ‘the right thing’ and turn the iPad into a standard notebook computer that just happens to have a touch screen. And since Apple has said that they have no desire to do that or to meld MacOS and iOS a la the Surface, settle in for the ad nauseum threads

At least the mouse-a-holics aren't ending every post with, "If Steve were alive..."

 

[booksbooks]

This whole topic just goes around in circles. Over and over. For years and years.

No, Apple will not provide a mouse/point and click functionality with iOS because it’s a smartphone operating system designed for mobile, multi-touch devices. Designed for your fingers. The entire design pattern is for fingers, not a point and click arrow.

For everyone asking for iOS to have a mouse, Apple has actually provided multi-touch with a mouse: it’s called OS X and a trackpad. OS X and modern Apple laptops have huge, multi-touch trackpads where, in combination with OS X, provide all of the multi-touch functions that are associated with iOS/iPhone/iPad.

Pinch to zoom. Swipe left or right in a browser to go forward or backwards. Use a finger to scroll a page. On and on.

Right now, I’m typing this on my new 12.9” iPad Pro with the Folio Keyboard and the cursor is messed up off of the text editing area: just another tablet/smartphone wonky Web experience.

 

[richpjr]

The point is not users expecting it, but desiring it.

This whole topic just goes around in circles. Over and over. For years and years.

No, Apple will not provide a mouse/point and click functionality with iOS because it’s a smartphone operating system designed for mobile, multi-touch devices. Designed for your fingers. The entire design pattern is for fingers, not a point and click arrow.

For everyone asking for iOS to have a mouse, Apple has actually provided multi-touch with a mouse: it’s called OS X and a trackpad. OS X and modern Apple laptops have huge, multi-touch trackpads where, in combination with OS X, provide all of the multi-touch functions that are associated with iOS/iPhone/iPad.

Pinch to zoom. Swipe left or right in a browser to go forward or backwards. Use a finger to scroll a page. On and on.

Right now, I’m typing this on my new 12.9” iPad Pro with the Folio Keyboard and the cursor is messed up off of the text editing area: just another tablet/smartphone wonky Web experience.

It does go around and around. And no matter how many times people say get a laptop, that misses the point.

 

[jeremiah256]

This whole topic just goes around in circles. Over and over. For years and years.

No, Apple will not provide a mouse/point and click functionality with iOS because it’s a smartphone operating system designed for mobile, multi-touch devices. Designed for your fingers. The entire design pattern is for fingers, not a point and click arrow.

For everyone asking for iOS to have a mouse, Apple has actually provided multi-touch with a mouse: it’s called OS X and a trackpad. OS X and modern Apple laptops have huge, multi-touch trackpads where, in combination with OS X, provide all of the multi-touch functions that are associated with iOS/iPhone/iPad.

Pinch to zoom. Swipe left or right in a browser to go forward or backwards. Use a finger to scroll a page. On and on.

Right now, I’m typing this on my new 12.9” iPad Pro with the Folio Keyboard and the cursor is messed up off of the text editing area: just another tablet/smartphone wonky Web experience.

But, would your iPad be as useful to you if it did not have external keyboard support (like your folio)? For me, that answer is no. I would not own an iPad if it was kept as a ‘pure’ tablet. It would be useful (for me) for consumption, only.

 

[AlexJoda]

But, would your iPad be as useful to you if it did not have external keyboard support (like your folio)? For me, that answer is no. I would not own an iPad if it was kept as a ‘pure’ tablet. It would be useful (for me) for consumption, only.

The keyboard with the current IOS is only a half baked solution and shows very clearly the limits of the iPad. A keyboard without a trackpad or mouse does not make much sense. You always have to switch between direct (touch) and indirect (keyboard) operation which is very annoying, slow and frustrating. That’s why I use my iPP most of the time with a smart case only and add sometimes a Magic Keyboard with a mouse for using it with Windows Remote workflows.

 

[Brammy]

I am neutral on the mouse thing.

Mainly, I think that the iPad is a touch driven device and the focus of the UI should be on touch. However, especially with the Pros and the Smart Keyboard, Apple is obviously promoting using them in a manner that is more consistent with a laptop form factor. And then for a lot of things reaching up to tap the screen isn't comfortable and some sort of a pointing device would help there. I type much faster on the Smart Keyboard than I do with the virtual keyboard.

I can navigate text using the keyboard commands pretty well, and the areas I would use a mouse are if I want to use our Remote Desktop app, but Horizon view looks blurry on the iPad Pro anyway.

I do feel if having a keyboard and mouse is a big impediment, and how someone would use an iPad is 90% mouse and keyboard, a laptop is probably a better solution.

 

[rowspaxe]

The keyboard with the current IOS is only a half baked solution and shows very clearly the limits of the iPad. A keyboard without a trackpad or mouse does not make much sense. You always have to switch between direct (touch) and indirect (keyboard) operation which is very annoying, slow and frustrating.

If you like this you'll love the monitor support!
[doublepost=1542468176][/doublepost]

I do feel if having a keyboard and mouse is a big impediment, and how someone would use an iPad is 90% mouse and keyboard, a laptop is probably a better solution.

Missing the point: its not about the ipad replacing laptops, its about improving ipad laptop ability
to make it a great hybrid.
[doublepost=1542468557][/doublepost]Tableteers, imagine next year apple announces mouse support, adds a trackpad to the smart keyboard cover, and adds a more robust finder overlay to ios.

How would this change your ipad experience?